paizo.com Recent Posts in Paladin's Code and Fiendspaizo.com Recent Posts in Paladin's Code and Fiends2011-04-12T13:56:50Z2011-04-12T13:56:50ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsMike Schneiderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1142011-04-17T07:14:39Z2011-04-17T07:14:39Z<p>Detect Evil also has a limited range. Supposing the demon had been slumbering in stasis for over 1d6 days 70' from the door (and awakened as the result of a alarm triggered by the door opening) — by a pure reading of the text of <i>Detect Evil</i> there wouldn't even be "residual" evil at the door. It also takes 3 rounds for the paladin to determine strength of the aura.</p>Detect Evil also has a limited range. Supposing the demon had been slumbering in stasis for over 1d6 days 70' from the door (and awakened as the result of a alarm triggered by the door opening) -- by a pure reading of the text of Detect Evil there wouldn't even be "residual" evil at the door. It also takes 3 rounds for the paladin to determine strength of the aura.Mike Schneider2011-04-17T07:14:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and Fiendswraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1132011-04-15T20:47:50Z2011-04-15T20:47:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sleep-Walker wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think the reason why I am so happy to punish the paladin for this is that I am a big fan of spamming detects. </p>
<p>The mage or cleric is responsible for constantly spamming detect magic. The paladin is responsible for constantly spamming detect evil. </p>
<p>Even if the Paladin didn't open the door [which I still understand he dud] he should have been using detect evil while the rogue was playing with it. </blockquote><p>The detect evil may not have made it through the door depending on how thick it was. I am also a fan of the spam detect(spell) idea.
</p>
It seems to me that for whatever reason the party got really relaxed. Sometime a GM can ease up too much, but other times some players just don't take things seriously. It may have been a combination of the two in this case. I would like to hear the player's side of the story.</p>Sleep-Walker wrote:I think the reason why I am so happy to punish the paladin for this is that I am a big fan of spamming detects.
The mage or cleric is responsible for constantly spamming detect magic. The paladin is responsible for constantly spamming detect evil.
Even if the Paladin didn't open the door [which I still understand he dud] he should have been using detect evil while the rogue was playing with it.
The detect evil may not have made it through the door depending on how thick...wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2011-04-15T20:47:50ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and Fiendsphantom1592https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1122011-04-15T20:22:51Z2011-04-15T20:22:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sleep-Walker wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think the reason why I am so happy to punish the paladin for this is that I am a big fan of spamming detects. </p>
<p>The mage or cleric is responsible for constantly spamming detect magic. The paladin is responsible for constantly spamming detect evil. </p>
<p>Even if the Paladin didn't open the door [which I still understand he dud] he should have been using detect evil while the rogue was playing with it. </blockquote><p>Ahhh... that's where our games are a bit different. We've derailed a couple games because some Evil guy set us up on time... and now we detected Evil on EVERYONE that we met...
<p>Eventually it just started to seem silly and the adventures never went anywhere... so we've backed of to 'detecting when logical' instead of having the radar going at all times....</p>Sleep-Walker wrote:I think the reason why I am so happy to punish the paladin for this is that I am a big fan of spamming detects.
The mage or cleric is responsible for constantly spamming detect magic. The paladin is responsible for constantly spamming detect evil.
Even if the Paladin didn't open the door [which I still understand he dud] he should have been using detect evil while the rogue was playing with it.
Ahhh... that's where our games are a bit different. We've derailed a couple...phantom15922011-04-15T20:22:51ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsSleep-Walkerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1112011-04-15T16:47:37Z2011-04-15T16:47:37Z<p>I think the reason why I am so happy to punish the paladin for this is that I am a big fan of spamming detects. </p>
<p>The mage or cleric is responsible for constantly spamming detect magic. The paladin is responsible for constantly spamming detect evil. </p>
<p>Even if the Paladin didn't open the door [which I still understand he dud] he should have been using detect evil while the rogue was playing with it.</p>I think the reason why I am so happy to punish the paladin for this is that I am a big fan of spamming detects.
The mage or cleric is responsible for constantly spamming detect magic. The paladin is responsible for constantly spamming detect evil.
Even if the Paladin didn't open the door [which I still understand he dud] he should have been using detect evil while the rogue was playing with it.Sleep-Walker2011-04-15T16:47:37ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and Fiendswraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1102011-04-15T10:08:17Z2011-04-15T10:08:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Hintz wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I think that the punishment didn't warrant the crime. Though the Paladin would most likely want to take out this evil abomination. The Paladin would fight for her comrades at least proiding them time to get away and then retreating themself if the enemy is too powerful.</p>
<p>Though the Paladin would be feeling very guilty about being part of the group that let the demon out. My Paladin would be making it his personal mission to find that demon and take it out, not to mention going and trying to fix most of the damage the demon caused.</p>
<p>The Paladin should be feeling some guilt definitely, but an atonement may have been a little bit much. At least making the Paladin pay the gp (unless I missed a post and the Paladin didn't pay the fee). </blockquote><p>The OP said the paladin only had to pay the normal price of the spell for getting someone to cast it for him which was just a few hundred gp, not the 2500 penalty for an alignment change.Hintz wrote:I think that the punishment didn't warrant the crime. Though the Paladin would most likely want to take out this evil abomination. The Paladin would fight for her comrades at least proiding them time to get away and then retreating themself if the enemy is too powerful.
Though the Paladin would be feeling very guilty about being part of the group that let the demon out. My Paladin would be making it his personal mission to find that demon and take it out, not to mention going and...wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2011-04-15T10:08:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsHintzhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1092011-04-15T09:58:57Z2011-04-15T09:58:57Z<p>I think that the punishment didn't warrant the crime. Though the Paladin would most likely want to take out this evil abomination. The Paladin would fight for her comrades at least proiding them time to get away and then retreating themself if the enemy is too powerful.</p>
<p>Though the Paladin would be feeling very guilty about being part of the group that let the demon out. My Paladin would be making it his personal mission to find that demon and take it out, not to mention going and trying to fix most of the damage the demon caused.</p>
<p>The Paladin should be feeling some guilt definitely, but an atonement may have been a little bit much. At least making the Paladin pay the gp (unless I missed a post and the Paladin didn't pay the fee).</p>I think that the punishment didn't warrant the crime. Though the Paladin would most likely want to take out this evil abomination. The Paladin would fight for her comrades at least proiding them time to get away and then retreating themself if the enemy is too powerful.
Though the Paladin would be feeling very guilty about being part of the group that let the demon out. My Paladin would be making it his personal mission to find that demon and take it out, not to mention going and trying to...Hintz2011-04-15T09:58:57ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and Fiendswraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1082011-04-15T09:44:25Z2011-04-15T09:44:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">phantom1592 wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Out of curiosity... What are peoples opinions on what he SHOULD have done? </p>
<p>A paladin Goes into a dungeon said to contain an ancient evil... He kills a bad guy who had wanted to free it... SOMEHOW he has the key... I don't know if it was said if they took it off the BBEG or found it somewhere...</p>
<p>Suddenly they see the door that the evil is supposed to be behind.</p>
<p>SHOULD he just walk away? </p>
<p>Isn't he required to verify that the Evil is still contained? Is there someway to know the BBEG didn't ALREADY release it and set it free? Most of MY paladin's would be reluctant to see the vault door, ASSUME the best and walk away... At the MINIMUM he would want to see if it was still in there... at the MAXIMUM he would want to destroy it. </p>
<p>Would assuming and walking away have been a dereliction of duty? </blockquote><p>The door was still locked, and the party had the key to the door.
</p>
My question which never got answered was what if he had defeated the demon? If so would he still have needed an atonement?</p>
<p>My opinion is this. The action was chaotic, but not evil so he should have atoned on his own for being reckless, but I would not threaten his powers. I would have his deity speak to him about the situation.</p>phantom1592 wrote:Out of curiosity... What are peoples opinions on what he SHOULD have done?
A paladin Goes into a dungeon said to contain an ancient evil... He kills a bad guy who had wanted to free it... SOMEHOW he has the key... I don't know if it was said if they took it off the BBEG or found it somewhere...
Suddenly they see the door that the evil is supposed to be behind.
SHOULD he just walk away?
Isn't he required to verify that the Evil is still contained? Is there someway to know...wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2011-04-15T09:44:25ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and Fiendsphantom1592https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1072011-04-15T09:32:02Z2011-04-15T09:32:02Z<p>Out of curiosity... What are peoples opinions on what he SHOULD have done? </p>
<p>A paladin Goes into a dungeon said to contain an ancient evil... He kills a bad guy who had wanted to free it... SOMEHOW he has the key... I don't know if it was said if they took it off the BBEG or found it somewhere...</p>
<p>Suddenly they see the door that the evil is supposed to be behind.</p>
<p>SHOULD he just walk away? </p>
<p>Isn't he required to verify that the Evil is still contained? Is there someway to know the BBEG didn't ALREADY release it and set it free? Most of MY paladin's would be reluctant to see the vault door, ASSUME the best and walk away... At the MINIMUM he would want to see if it was still in there... at the MAXIMUM he would want to destroy it. </p>
<p>Would assuming and walking away have been a dereliction of duty?</p>Out of curiosity... What are peoples opinions on what he SHOULD have done?
A paladin Goes into a dungeon said to contain an ancient evil... He kills a bad guy who had wanted to free it... SOMEHOW he has the key... I don't know if it was said if they took it off the BBEG or found it somewhere...
Suddenly they see the door that the evil is supposed to be behind.
SHOULD he just walk away?
Isn't he required to verify that the Evil is still contained? Is there someway to know the BBEG didn't...phantom15922011-04-15T09:32:02ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsMike Schneiderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1062011-04-15T04:32:50Z2011-04-15T04:32:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>they were there to prevent the BBEG (who was also there, searching) from finding the demon's prison vault and setting it free.</blockquote><p>Oh. Well, then....
<p><envisioning the typical spam-can paladin with INT 8 who's inspecting his sword edges for nicks or downing an iron-ration while the rogue is deciding which way to go></p>
<p>....in this case, his only real error is inattentiveness (perhaps the player's INT matches his character's), not a deliberate break of code.</p>
<p>The stern warning in a dream (see my last post) is an appropriate way to handle it.</p>Quote:they were there to prevent the BBEG (who was also there, searching) from finding the demon's prison vault and setting it free.
Oh. Well, then....
....in this case, his only real error is inattentiveness (perhaps the player's INT matches his character's), not a deliberate break of code.
The stern warning in a dream (see my last post) is an appropriate way to handle it.Mike Schneider2011-04-15T04:32:50ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsTriOmegaZerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1052011-04-15T03:42:24Z2011-04-15T03:42:24Z<p>I'm all for arguing paladins and alignment, but I'm trying to quit snarky comments, and joining this thread would be like a recovering alcoholic going to a frat party.</p>I'm all for arguing paladins and alignment, but I'm trying to quit snarky comments, and joining this thread would be like a recovering alcoholic going to a frat party.TriOmegaZero2011-04-15T03:42:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsMahorfeushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1042011-04-15T03:39:27Z2011-04-15T03:39:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">TriOmegaZero wrote:</div><blockquote> Well, I'm glad I stayed out of this thread. </blockquote><p>From the looks of things, the storm has passed. But another week, another alignment/paladin topic...TriOmegaZero wrote:Well, I'm glad I stayed out of this thread.
From the looks of things, the storm has passed. But another week, another alignment/paladin topic...Mahorfeus2011-04-15T03:39:27ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsTriOmegaZerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1032011-04-15T03:19:47Z2011-04-15T03:19:47Z<p>Well, I'm glad I stayed out of this thread.</p>Well, I'm glad I stayed out of this thread.TriOmegaZero2011-04-15T03:19:47ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsArehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1022011-04-15T02:45:11Z2011-04-15T02:45:11Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mike Schneider wrote:</div><blockquote><p> 1) If the demon was sealed, why was the party in the dungeon? (Simply to loot it?)
</p>
</blockquote><p>The OP explained earlier that they were there to prevent the BBEG (who was also there, searching) from finding the demon's prison vault and setting it free.Mike Schneider wrote:1) If the demon was sealed, why was the party in the dungeon? (Simply to loot it?)
The OP explained earlier that they were there to prevent the BBEG (who was also there, searching) from finding the demon's prison vault and setting it free.Are2011-04-15T02:45:11ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Paladin's Code and FiendsMike Schneiderhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m4d4&page=3?Paladins-Code-and-Fiends#1012011-04-15T00:54:00Z2011-04-15T00:54:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>A Paladin in my group recently required an atonement and was complaining a bit how it was unfair so I wanted to get some feedback.</p>
<p>Scenario: A powerful demon was safely sealed away in a magical vault in the dungeon. The group had been given the name of said demon and knew that it was somewhere in this dungeon. The door to the vault was huge and glowing with decipherable magical runes which would have provided clear hints of what was inside.</p>
<p>The party when encountering the door slaps in a key without bothering investigate anything at all. No reading the runes. No checking for traps. I tried to pause and make opening the door seem really dramatic to see if someone would say stop, but no one did anything</blockquote><p>(1) If the demon was sealed, why was the party in the dungeon? (Simply to loot it?)
<p>If the Paladin <i>knew</i> that a powerful (i.e., beyond his capacity to deal with) demon was sealed up, and let it loose, then he is responsible for screwing up. </p>
<p>Otherwise, he is part of a team, and it is not normally his job to read magical ruins or check doors for traps. Making stupid decisions (i.e., placing trust in incompetent allies) is not the same thing as violating code.</p>
<p>I'd make this a minor infraction, and maybe write a short bit where his LG god shows up for a little one-way chat in a dream, whereupon Paladin powers are restored without the full atonement rigmarole — but he's on "probation". OTOH, if the player of the paladin is in full-blown hack-slash mode and not giving a damn about evil or good or anything else, hit him hard until he shapes up.</p>
<p>— A paladin is a <i>roleplaying</i> choice indicating that you, as a player, intend to get more into a character concept that you would playing a typical lunkhead fighter or barbarian. Paladins, unlike the other classes, have <i>responsibilities</i> which they must uphold in order to <i>earn</i> their bestowed benefits. If you choose to play a paladin solely because you love wonderful attack and damage bonuses in certain situations, you choose poorly.</p>Quote:A Paladin in my group recently required an atonement and was complaining a bit how it was unfair so I wanted to get some feedback.
Scenario: A powerful demon was safely sealed away in a magical vault in the dungeon. The group had been given the name of said demon and knew that it was somewhere in this dungeon. The door to the vault was huge and glowing with decipherable magical runes which would have provided clear hints of what was inside.
The party when encountering the door slaps...Mike Schneider2011-04-15T00:54:00Z