"Monster" orphanages and sanctuaries (Golarion)


Advice

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Wow, this was thread was a really good read, funny, interesting and thought-provoking.

I think I'll have a crack at kobolds when I have done some more reading on them, especially any Golarion Kobold fluff there is.

The Exchange

I get the feeling my kingmaker group is about to try to civilize kobolds.....

Liberty's Edge

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I love this idea. A slight threadjack on why this hasn't happened yet:

Almost nobody Good-aligned kills entire humanoid tribes. See, a small group going into a humanoid lair is usually suicidal. Adventurer groups can manage it, but they really aren't that common, and a fair percentage aren't Good-aligned.

Good-aligned people often fight, say, a raiding party and kill them, but going back to their lair? Either unnecessary (if the raiding party was the whole tribe) or really dangerous (if they weren't). And most villages that kill a whole raiding party aren't going to be raided again for quite a while.

The other common situation is an actual war, where taking the fight to the enemy is considered necessary...but that's going to be rare, and certainly involve a lot of Neutral people being in on the assault...and (as was almost inevitable while sacking a town in medieval warfare) some of them are going to commit atrocities. Which, considering the monstrous nature of Orcs, Goblins, et al, are almost certainly going to include killing their young.

So, those are the two common situations, and neither involves a whole lot of goblin orphans. PCs are really almost necessary to cause that. And should thus totally set up orphanages.

Sovereign Court

Asphesteros wrote:

Paladins and others able to detect evil should figure prominently in all these schemes.

If I were running such a school, end of term exams would be standing up the class to a good hard detect evil-ing. Those that pass get to advance to the next grade, those that fail get left back. Graduation ceremony is passing muster on a detect good.

anything under level 5 that isn't undead, a cleric/paladin, or an outsider doesn't detect at all, so your saying that they'd have to pass a test that 90% of the population couldn't, and of that 90% a good portion of evil people could. How long are they supposed to be in this orphanage if they can't get out till level 5?

Grand Lodge

Multi-pass... I mean... dot.

Lastknightleft:it's a school, they should develop a higher-level spell that detects alignment of individuals who are lower power.

Sovereign Court

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Kais86 wrote:

Multi-pass... I mean... dot.

Lastknightleft:it's a school, they should develop a higher-level spell that detects alignment of individuals who are lower power.

I personally hate using detects as a easy out button on morality issues and would not allow such a spell in any setting I ever DMed. There's another route where they answer personality questions under a zone of truth, which allows for a save and makes things a lot more grey area (do we trust him, what if he beat the spell?) but one of the best things the pathfinder change did was to make use of detect alignment spells a lot more ambiguous as you don't always get an answer, and going back to the old way is not something I want to see ever.


Andrew R wrote:
It will be all for nothing if the monsters are not part of society, they need acceptance as much as the monster itself needs to learn to behave

Agreed. Though the 'monsters' knowing how to function in society would help on that end a lot. Combined with more exposure for both ends and acceptance will follow as much as it ever does.

Grand Lodge

lastknightleft wrote:
Kais86 wrote:

Multi-pass... I mean... dot.

Lastknightleft:it's a school, they should develop a higher-level spell that detects alignment of individuals who are lower power.

I personally hate using detects as a easy out button on morality issues and would not allow such a spell in any setting I ever DMed. There's another route where they answer personality questions under a zone of truth, which allows for a save and makes things a lot more grey area (do we trust him, what if he beat the spell?) but one of the best things the pathfinder change did was to make use of detect alignment spells a lot more ambiguous as you don't always get an answer, and going back to the old way is not something I want to see ever.

There is several ways of doing this without magic, I was suggesting something that didn't take tons of time for the teachers at the school in question. Doing secret alignment tests can be complicated and difficult, but it's something they could run every student through, and get the same results as simply casting a spell on them. Not using magic to save time seems like a waste of resources.


Mikaze wrote:
On Drow: I don't know that it's that severe a problem. We have some canonical non-evil drow in the setting after all, who remain drow.

I am unaware of any such drow in Galorian -- and know that JB is vehemently opposed to the idea as a general rule.


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Kobolds offer their own unique problems when it comes to raising children. Kobolds need society and meaningful work almost as much as they need food and warmth. Due to their quick aging processes the children are typically capable of much more earlier than many humanoids realize. Dwarves have perhaps the easiest time with raising kobolds due to a similar cultural work ethic and communal attitude.

The biggest dangers to raising kobolds come from the outside and basic kobold psychology. Kobolds never do completely lose their paranoid tendencies and if one of the children are hurt outside of the rules of what their society allows they tend to take it as a slight to all the kobolds present. Kobolds still recognize themselves as 'different' than their adopted parents and if many kobolds are present will start having 'secret meetings' regardless of what is done to prevent this. If the kobolds feel they are being misused (either through exploitation, or not being worked enough) they start turning inward for new leadership. This can be partially prevented by regular honest discussions with the kobold children about how they feel about their environment, working conditions, and the outcome of their efforts.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Set wrote:


Back in the day, pre-Golarion, my 'out' to take the 'black is bad' out of Drow was to rule that all elves, over a few generations, adapt to the light level of their surroundings, in a way exactly the opposite of humans. Those who dwell in the sun-bleached mountain fortresses of the Gray Elves are pale, pale, pale. Those who dwell in the shadier low lands, the High Elves, are 'normal' skin tone. Those who dwell in the forests, the Wood Elves, are darker still, with those who dwell in the darkest, most inaccesable areas, the Grugach, described in their write-ups as 'nut-brown' in color. The Aquatic Elves, deep beneath the waters, are varying shades of blue or green, as suits the color of light that reaches them, and the Drow are as dark as the endless night that surrounds them in the Underdark.

No 'color racism' at all, just the base elven breed adapting to the light levels around them.

If a new elven sub-species is developed that lives in the frozen north, they'd probably be snow-pale, while one that lives in the elemental plane of fire, would be as red as embers.

Huh,

In my homebrew world, on the northern continent, humans, elves (mostly), dwarves, halflings, and gnomes were destroyed by a giant alliance of the monstrous races. Prior to that, a human empire had gone underground and worked with the dwarves and elves to attack the drow empires of the north, and destroyed the three major drow cities (think of the drow cities as clans, each major city held 50,000 drow or so, and had a network of smaller cities that owed them alliegance, basically the equivalent of drow countries).

So the drow, driven out of their homes, migrated the only place they could, north into the savage snow covered wastes. They enslaved the humans that had been eking out existences in the snowy wastes, and started retooling their magic.

2000 years later, drow in the wastes have no light blindness, instead they have a resistance to light blindness (replacing poison use, poison freezes too easily for easy use). Instead of the normal spells per day, they get Ray of Frost, Endure Elements, and Glitterdust once per day.

Contributor

In the last world I was running, light elves, dark elves, dwarves, gnomes, trolls, and goblins were retroactively deported to Fairyland, meaning they never left, and the main world had only halflings, humans, and civilized giants. The Fey folk were also continually kidnapping mortals to pay the Tiend to Hell, since Fairyland had an extremely aggressive mortgage.

This led to many amusing situations, the best of which was the party continually telling one party member, "Yes, but at least we didn't sell babies to the elves" after he traded a gnomish peddler a couple of petrified babies they'd found in a basilisk nest, not realizing that these could be unpetrified and were thus worth large amounts on the elven black market.

It was nice to have the elves as the villains for a change.


Andrew R wrote:
Asphesteros wrote:

Paladins and others able to detect evil should figure prominently in all these schemes.

..... Graduation ceremony is passing muster on a detect good.
A majority of the "goodly" races are neutral, not good. Why hold them to a higher standard

Because the whole concept assumes they're racially predisposed to evil, where other races are not (otherwise you can just deliver them to foster parents like any other orphans and be done with it).

Risk of backsliding would be higher for races predisposed to evil. A lot more likely to slip back into evil if you've only gotten to neural after being rasied to be good. I wouldn't let a bunch of goblins run around loose that only got to neutral after being raised to be good from childood - dangerous for the population and dangerous for them too. Better to keep them under supervision.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Kobolds offer their own unique problems when it comes to raising children. Kobolds need society and meaningful work almost as much as they need food and warmth. Due to their quick aging processes the children are typically capable of much more earlier than many humanoids realize. Dwarves have perhaps the easiest time with raising kobolds due to a similar cultural work ethic and communal attitude.

The biggest dangers to raising kobolds come from the outside and basic kobold psychology. Kobolds never do completely lose their paranoid tendencies and if one of the children are hurt outside of the rules of what their society allows they tend to take it as a slight to all the kobolds present. Kobolds still recognize themselves as 'different' than their adopted parents and if many kobolds are present will start having 'secret meetings' regardless of what is done to prevent this. If the kobolds feel they are being misused (either through exploitation, or not being worked enough) they start turning inward for new leadership. This can be partially prevented by regular honest discussions with the kobold children about how they feel about their environment, working conditions, and the outcome of their efforts.

Good stuff all in all. But in classic monsters revisited it says that kobolds can live for 120 to 130 years, and if you wanna get old school ADnD 1 kobolds can live for 900, well unless a lvl 1 fighter gets their hands on them.

I have an idea for the orphanage where the kobolds/goblins would grow up. Make sure that the staff is a mix of small, medium, and if possible lager people that treat the children and each other with respect. Hopefully that will curb some if the tendency that kobolds and goblins have to resent larger folk.

Dark Archive

dot


Moofire wrote:


Good stuff all in all. But in classic monsters revisited it says that kobolds can live for 120 to 130 years, and if you wanna get old school ADnD 1 kobolds can live for 900, well unless a lvl 1 fighter gets their hands on them.

I have an idea for the orphanage where the kobolds/goblins would grow up. Make sure that the staff is a mix of small, medium, and if possible lager people that treat the children and each other with respect. Hopefully that will curb some if the tendency that kobolds and goblins have to resent larger folk.

Living a long time doesn't mean that they don't reach maturity quickly. The two seem to only be linked for the 'good' races.

Having a mixture of creature sizes could be useful so long as it is continuously shown that each has their own advantages without playing up the disadvantages of any. Kobolds are quick to see differences and to calculate such advantages and disadvantages on their own -- they need to be taught to look for the advantages first and to 'work' on the disadvantages instead of their typical response of trying to use disadvantages and negate advantages.

Silver Crusade

Very nice thoughts on kobolds! Yeah, little guys have persecution complexes and confidence issues to spare...

I can't help but wonder about metallic dragons getting into the kobold adopting game.

Abraham spalding wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
On Drow: I don't know that it's that severe a problem. We have some canonical non-evil drow in the setting after all, who remain drow.
I am unaware of any such drow in Galorian -- and know that JB is vehemently opposed to the idea as a general rule.

Second Darkness spoiler:

Spoiler:
There's a possible NPC contact in the drow city the PCs have to infiltrate, a CN drow who is noted in the text as lacking the maliciousness of the cultural norm in town. Basically offers a "trustworthy" character to help them fit into the city.

There's also a sidebar in the first volume, recommending that PCs don't play drow in the AP, if only not to throw off the feel of the campaign, but basically said "go nuts" afterwards.

Dark Archive

Mikaze wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas on troglodytes? That one is just striking me as requiring a fairly awkward setup.

I kind of always thought of troglodytes as the degenerate demon-tainted (or Laogzed(sp?)-tainted, in AD&D/3.X) versions of lizardfolk, not really 'redeemable' as much as the less demon-culty / evil god-fodder races.

In Golarion, in particular, with their link to Zevgavizeh, I'd be inclined to make them more like Drow, pretty much locked into their demon-tainted nature. Making them not-evil and purging them of that would make them pretty much not-troglodytes anymore (and, assuming such a thing was possible, would result in a neutral non-stinky lizardfolk with bad posture, for the most part)...

Just as Drow are 'elves gone bad', I see trodlodytes as 'lizardfolk gone bad.' (And the both of them as having some link to Serpentfolk, in the really old pre-mammal days, although far fallen from any direct relationship.)

With those assumptions, which are mine, all mine, in play, I'd pretty much rule that a troglodyte rehabilitation attempt would end in tears and bloodshed. Demon taint don't clean up easy.

Other races, such as gnolls, would also be more of an uphill struggle than others, but not impossible. (Races of the Wild suggested that non-evil gnoll tribes existed, but, frankly, I didn't care for their write-up as much as the way more evocative Anpur of the Hamunaptra setting.)


The biggest problem with gnolls is when they start to settle in one area. As long as you can keep them on the move in small family units the needs of survival preclude the ability to really get into trouble. But for some reason when gnolls start to settle in one area they seem to almost start festering on a spiritual level.

For this reason Varasians with all their normal culture issues are perhaps the best hope for calming gnolls' normally viscous behaviors. Unfortunately most attempts to civilize gnolls just seem to lead to the gnolls developing surly attitudes and short tempers.

Left with plenty of room to travel, and a family unit that offers strong leadership, and respect for both those in and out of it gnolls quickly become much more gregarious and free spirited. Surprisingly this leads them to have excellent relations with traveling halflings and when on the move it is amazing the speed at which these two races can come together as a community.

Perhaps the largest danger for both groups is when gnolls meet kobolds. With the gnolls free spirited jokes and pranks the kobolds quickly lapse back into a defensive position. The gnolls not meaning ill will take a dim view of those unable to take their pranks and continue to play them. This downward spiral can only lead to tears on both sides when the kobolds finally decide to strike back at their agitators.

Silver Crusade

Set wrote:

Other races, such as gnolls, would also be more of an uphill struggle than others, but not impossible. (Races of the Wild suggested that non-evil gnoll tribes existed, but, frankly, I didn't care for their write-up as much as the way more evocative Anpur of the Hamunaptra setting.)

Hamunaptra's awesomeness can't be stressed enough. :)

(ONLY FIVE BUCKS HERE AT THE PAIZO STORE EVERYOEN!)

And interesting note on the troglodytes being "degenerated". The same thing applies to a large portion of the serpentfolk too. I wonder if Paizo's noted that similarity(both in the condition and the races' histories) and has something planned for it...

Abraham spalding wrote:
Perhaps the largest danger for both groups is when gnolls meet kobolds. With the gnolls free spirited jokes and pranks the kobolds quickly lapse back into a defensive position. The gnolls not meaning ill will take a dim view of those unable to take their pranks and continue to play them. This downward spiral can only lead to tears on both sides when the kobolds finally decide to strike back at their agitators.

Okay, this right here really has me interested in this potential conflict. :D

I'm really liking the idea of gnolls adopting Varisian-style(or whatever would be appropriate in North Garund) nomadic culture, with all the prejudices that are going to come with it from sedentary folks

Silver Crusade

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Goblins

Recommended Deities: Desna, Cayden Cailean, Calistria, Gozreh, Pharasma, Abadar, Iomedae, Sarenrae(caution: see below)
Recommended Environment: Any

Goblins are a highly adaptive race that require adaptive caretakers. Patience and quick-thinking is of utmost importance for any wishing to take part in such an endeavor. The common comparison between raising goblins and herding cats is fairly accurate.

Goblins tend to go with the flow, and will latch onto any culture and societal structure they are introduced to at a young age, emulating it and integrating to varying degrees of success. They can be kept in sizable groups, but care should be taken to ensure that there are never too many to keep under control at once. Numerous and varied activities should be provided, with an underlaying stable structured nature guiding them. Choirs are almost always present in these orphanages, and are eagerly filled.

What is and what is not appropriate to eat should be driven into goblins at an early age. Even seemingly harmless acts such as eating insects and worms should be discouraged in order to "stop it before it starts". Some scholars have posited that the overall healthier diets provided by orphanages could, if carried on into adult life, extend the average goblin life span by a full decade. This remains unproven since, unfortunately, while death-by-violence is sharply decreased for such goblins, death-by-accident remains high or even higher than the norm for the race.

It is highly recommended that any structure intended to house and school young goblins be built primarily with stone.

Teaching reading and writing may be problematic, depending on how entrenched superstition is for each individual. Pictograms are a solid starting point for goblins of any age. Rebuses have proven a fairly effective method for tricking many older goblin youths into schieving literacy, though some such as the church of Sarenrae may denounce such methods.

Dogs are highly discouraged on the premises themselves, but keeping hounds on the perimeter of such establishments make for excellent, if coldly pragmatic, deterrants for any young goblin wandering off of the grounds. Any such guarddogs should be firmly restrained and kept away from the children.

Horses are likewise discouraged, though small ponies are often recommended to be brought in under controlled conditions in order to acclimate young goblins with the animals and most importantly demonstrate how not to approach such animals, lessening the likelihood of accidents in adult life.

Goblins take to any deity capable of catching their interest for any extended amount of time. Desna and Abadar, two deities almost diametrically opposed by ethos, both appeal to goblins for their respective "shinies". Shelyn likewise catches the fancy of many goblins, though their art may seem nonsensical, vulgar, or simply tacky to other races. Cayden Cailean provides an excellent, easy role model for many goblins, though his faith has resulted in a disproportionate amount of accidental deaths among the race. Callistria offers an option appealing to many goblins, though one many good adopters would be wary or opposed to introduce. Regardless, a few Calistrians have sucessfully raised goblins as "karmic tricksters", for good or ill.

Of particular note is the goddess Sarenrae. No other good aligned deity has the natural appeal for goblins that Sarenrae possesses, but introducing her faith to impressionable goblins is a task to be approached with utmost caution. First, all too often older goblins latch onto the aesthetics and fire-related aspects of the faith and little else, seeing it as a justification for pyromaniacal behavior. Second, many other goblins embrace the faith with an absolute passion, making them sincere yet potentially dangerous zealots that could be likened to the more extreme incarnations of the Dawnflower Cult compounded with attention deficit disorders. Sarenraens are highly advised to proceed with moderation and care, and to be willing to hand certain youths over to other faiths both for their sake and that of any surrounding forests or settlements. Those goblins that do take well to the faith serve as fine examples of the redemptive potential in all sapient races, and whirling, and self-sickening, goblin dervishes* provide excellent emissaries of the Dawnflower's message to goblin-kind as a whole.

*Do not approach while in motion.

Kind of want to see a goblin picture-book version of The Birth of Light and Truth now...

Silver Crusade

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Medusa

Recommended Deities: Shelyn, Sarenrae, Abadar, Irori
Recommended Environment: Urban/Urban-accessable

Medusas present an interesting mixture of easily relatable human mindsets and highly dangerous supernatural abilities. Recent research, bolstered by actual medusa scholars and subjects alike, have determined that the fell reputation of this unusual monogendered race is primarily a result of society's general rejection and persecution rather than any inborn "bad nature".

Providing a stable, caring environment for a medusa from a young age curbs most of the negative behavior attributed to the race entirely. However, special care must be taken due to the deadly nature of their cursed gaze. Any caretakers should wear glasses or goggles with smoked glass, preferably the latter to prevent accidental sidelong glances. Medusas themselves should be acclimated from an early age with wearing these items as well, as it is key to their functionality in the outside world.

A special note on goggles: A small design that allows for a maximum amount of expressiveness to remain visible is suggested. Eye-to-eye contact is an element of nonverbal communication that is sadly sacrificed in most medusa/non-medusa relationships. Any small measure of facial expressiveness that can be shared helps alleviate that loss.

It should also be noted that capable individuals with sight-related handicaps can prove highly valuable in the rearing of a medusa. The value of a non-obscured face should not be underestimated in the development of familial bonds. Medusas can also benefit from learning how to cope without eyesight, which may prove critical later in life. It is also notable that adult medusas in turn make excellent caretakers for the blind.

Protective gloves are suggested for any caretakers dealing with particularly young medusas until they have learned to better control the emotions that may drive their serpentine hair to hostility. Some suggest resuming this practice or continuing it altogether until they are past their difficult teenage years.

Magical aid must be accessable in case of accidental petrification. As many forms of such aid are not completely safe, anyone intending to work in such an establishment must be made aware of the potential risks.

Enclosed environments without windows are a sad necessity for many young medusas. At the very least, the outer wall of any building such children will be inhabiting should be windowless. Open air environs such as gardens within the grounds are relatively safe as long as the walls are proven capable of keeping children inside and curious outsiders out.

At the appropriate age, it is suggested that medusas be trained in any sort of self-defense they can manage, be it martial or magical. This will give them options to those that must cope with potential persecution beyond their essentially lethal gaze, which in many areas would only exacerbate racial tensions.

Given the relative rarity of the race, medusas will most often be raised alone. Ideally their caretakers should comprise a small, stable family unit taking in the child like any other adoptee of the major races.

While medusa psychology is largely human in nature, there is still a common occurence of mild paranoia and calculating thinking among the race. The first must be confronted within the family unit, establishing absolute trust between her and her humanoid family. Cultivation of a healthy self-image is also of great importance in curbing this and other problems. The latter can easily be beneficial, and many have taken quite easily to the fields of academics and government.

The acceptance and reassurances of Shelyn have made her among the most popular deities for medusas raised within civilization, with many turning to art as a way of expressing themselves to an outside world that often cannot see them directly for who they truly are. Some also turn to Irori, seeking ways to perfect themselves and master restraint both for their own safety and that of others. Abadar likewise offers stability for many medusas, giving them an easier path into the lifesblood of society and ensuring a place within it.

Sadly, some cultures in the past have approached the issue of young medusas through extreme measures such as the removal of their eyes and "shaving" of their scalps. While this effectively renders them harmless to others, this infliction of mutilation upon children is sharply condemned by humane organizations and churches.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

In our kingmaker campaign, I've currently been working on plans to create Darkspire, flood a number of hexes (a certain amount of the area) and create a monstrous sanctuary in the middle of the newly created swamp. (On good lands of course.)

Tengu, Centaurs, those frog peoples, Minotuars, Kobolds, Newly created anthropomorphic animals etc..

Did you know that there is a city already out there for undead? They have laws that say killing a Intelligent undead is the same as murder.

Here at Darkspire, we intend to the same.

Remember, You are a fellow citizen. and the time to consume is now.

Silver Crusade

Ævux wrote:

In our kingmaker campaign, I've currently been working on plans to create Darkspire, flood a number of hexes (a certain amount of the area) and create a monstrous sanctuary in the middle of the newly created swamp. (On good lands of course.)

Tengu, Centaurs, those frog peoples, Minotuars, Kobolds, Newly created anthropomorphic animals etc..

My tiefling paladin in that same AP has similar longterm goals. Wants to build a fully integrated city to serve as a beacon for all the dispossessed and outcast races who can abide by the laws of the land. Full on mixed population of humanoids, monstrous types, and the native fey, with the city ideally built fully integrated with nature per fey standards. Already got a head start on the tiefling, grig, and kobold populations!


Asphesteros wrote:

Paladins and others able to detect evil should figure prominently in all these schemes.

If I were running such a school, end of term exams would be standing up the class to a good hard detect evil-ing. Those that pass get to advance to the next grade, those that fail get left back. Graduation ceremony is passing muster on a detect good.

I invite you to read the section Aura Power of Detect Evil, where it is clear that creatures of less than 5HD have no such supernatural aura. Thus, most orcs do not radiate evil, typically being 1HD Warriors even if they are evil.

Sorry to rain on your parade!

MI

Dark Archive

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Malachite Ice wrote:
I invite you to read the section Aura Power of Detect Evil, where it is clear that creatures of less than 5HD have no such supernatural aura. Thus, most orcs do not radiate evil, typically being 1HD Warriors even if they are evil.

Thanks for linking that. I remember seeing it mentioned in various threads, but failed by 'reading comprehension' check to find it in the write up at first glance and was wondering if I'd imagined the whole thing.

Creative player - "My bard uses Inspire Greatness to bump them all up by 2 HD. Are they evil now?"

Annoyed GM - "It doesn't work that way, although I'm turning evil..."

Grand Lodge

I've really enjoyed reading this. Are there any plans to put more up?


Yes, I'm simply moving slowly at the moment.

Mikaze I had some medusa in my games that had their 'humanoid' eyes blinded but not their snake eyes. They could still see due to the snakes but didn't blind people since the humanoid eyes were the channel for the stone gazing ability.

Might be a thought for future medusa for you -- after all that all around vision has to come from somewhere.

Dark Archive

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As much as turning bugbears into focused killers seems frought with peril, I can't help but think that in places like Ustalav or the Worldwound, channeling their natural tendencies into pursuits like undead slaying or demon hunting, could be mostly productives uses of their talents. Bugbears with levels in Cleric of Pharasma (positive energy channeling undead slayers) or Gorum (still positive energy channelers, but with evil Alignment channeling, so that they can smite demons), Inquisitor and / or Ranger (FE: Undead or Evil Outsiders) could be effective ways to let them remain productive members of society, and yet also keep true to their natural instincts.

Indeed, it would probably work best if training and rearing preyed on their pride, leaving them with the impression that since they are hunting creatures (undead, demons, etc.) that are more terrifying, dangerous and vicious than mere humans, they are many times 'better bugbears' than those that hide in attics and spook human children.

The local population would likely have to be as carefully 'trained,' to 'know' that the bugbear in their midst is a dangerous loose cannons to be treated with extreme caution, not because the bugbear itself has impulse control issues, but because it's vital to the bugbears self-image that the humans around it never treat it with anything less than trepidation. The moment the bugbear begins to feel accepted, or that the humans are *comfortable* around it and think it 'safe' or 'tame' or 'a pet,' he's likely to start using his skills to remind them why they should be afraid of him... Keeping the true nature of it's training limited to the trainer themself, so that none risk provoking it by treating it as 'safe,' may lead to what seems an awkward civilized life for a bugbear, but it seems unlikely that any psychologically healthy bugbear would *want* to be 'accepted' so much as feared, like a hot-tempered gunslinger swaggering through a rural community, savoring the fearful respect that his bad reputation has created.

Trying to convince locals to *pretend* to be afraid, to soothe the bugbears prickly need-to-be-feared would likely backfire terribly, as bugbears are extremely good at 'scenting fear,' and won't fall for that sort of crap for long. (And likely consider it a challenge to make the pretenders *really* afraid of him...)

If the caretaker finds that one in a thousand bugbear who *does* crave acceptance, and doesn't thrive on fearful 'respect,' they can adjust the program and integrate that bugbear normally.

Contributor

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I'm thinking of the the fun that a bugbear paladin could have sneaking into ghouls' feast halls in Geb and effectively "popping out of the cake" from the box that was supposed to hold the human children for the night's feast. Heck, a Hat of Disguise would make that easy. Look! A poor frightened human child is wandering around the undead infested graveyard. Aren't you frightened, little one?

No! I'm really a bugbear paladin! Boo!

Pat Cadigan did a more serious take on the serial killer vampire hunter in her great short story "The Power and the Passion," if you want a darker tale. Use that as a model for a bugbear inquisitor? Easily done.


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Goblin whaling vessel.

Just don't let 'em in the rigging. Nuthin' like havin' a "captain's daughter" fallin' on yer head. (Do goblins suffer from acrophobia?)

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
... there's only so much kraken one can eat before the other end begins to spoil ...

Now I'm thinking of goblins with bulimia. Binge and... High Altitude Target Vomiting. Another reason to keep them out of the rigging.


Q: Do kobalds still lay clutches of eggs in Pathfinder? If so hatching them out may be another factor in rearing them.

Q: Do medusea lay eggs or give live birth?

Scarab Sages

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Just thought I'd chime in with a fun story.

I'm currently playing a Goblin Paladin of Sarenrae. He was saved by the cleric iconic (can't think of her name right now), and now he wanders the world searching for other monstrous races to show them the redeeming light of Sarenrae.

He gets to use a slashy scimitar, will get a celestial goblin dog as a mount, gets access to the fire domain (because goblins love fire), so he basically gets to do everything goblins love... for the forces of good!

Contributor

Davor wrote:

Just thought I'd chime in with a fun story.

I'm currently playing a Goblin Paladin of Sarenrae. He was saved by the cleric iconic (can't think of her name right now), and now he wanders the world searching for other monstrous races to show them the redeeming light of Sarenrae.

He gets to use a slashy scimitar, will get a celestial goblin dog as a mount, gets access to the fire domain (because goblins love fire), so he basically gets to do everything goblins love... for the forces of good!

Do celestial goblin dogs still cause allergies, or only for evil people?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
mdt wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Goblin Whalers

I know that was sort of tongue in cheek... but I'm so stealing that for my homebrew. :)

It makes so much sense, you can put twice as many goblins on a ship as you can humans, even a few more than halflings (they're smaller than halflings). They eat anything edible and don't complain, and they enjoy hacking up the whales.

Put a humanoid crew in charge of actually harpooning and running the boat, send the goblins out on the actual skiffs, and you've got a very good synergy.

Since it looks like folk are going to run with it, here's some flavor/color for your goblin whaling vessel when the players run into it:

“What Do We Do on a Goblin Whaler?”
(to tune of “Drunken Sailor”)

Intro:

What do we do on a goblin whaler,
What do we do on a goblin whaler,
What do we do on a goblin whaler,
Earl-aye in the morning?

Chorus:

Weigh heigh and up she rises
Weigh heigh and up she rises
Weigh heigh and up she rises
Earl-aye in the morning

Middle verses:

1. Slash up Moby* with a doggie slicer,(x3)
2. Cut the kraken into calamari,(x3)
3. Boil dragon turtle for goblin chowder, (x3)
4. Strangle Cecil** with a pretty necktie***, (x3)

Ending Chorus:

That's what we do on a goblin whaler,
That's what we do on a goblin whaler,
That's what we do on a goblin whaler,
Earl-aye in the morning

* Goblin nickname for all whales.
** Goblin nickname for all sea serpents.
*** Noose made of bowline.

Well my friend, i wonder what the Aspis corporation will do with the idea of whaling boats filled with goblins?

this is a facinating thread. love the songs

Scarab Sages

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


Do celestial goblin dogs still cause allergies, or only for evil people?

Honestly, I don't care. As a goblin, I don't think Bagog really gets every other creatures' aversion to "true dogs." They're just as cuddly, without all the dander! And you basically don't have to feed 'em!

Silver Crusade

Set/KAM: Talk about playing with fire, but I'm really falling in love with the idea of monster/undead huntin' bugbears now.

One would probably make for a great NPC for some Adventurer's Starter Town. And if he were to be taken out by some threat, it could serve as a great "oh crap" moment to both put the PCs on edge and build them up. Or maybe as an ally that could be relied on only up to the point where he endangers or abandons whatever mission they're on to go after tempting but likely deserving prey. (and now I'm thinking of how many times the Punisher has done exactly that...)

There's just something appealing about a character that can outscare the things that go bump in the night.

Abraham spalding wrote:

Yes, I'm simply moving slowly at the moment.

Mikaze I had some medusa in my games that had their 'humanoid' eyes blinded but not their snake eyes. They could still see due to the snakes but didn't blind people since the humanoid eyes were the channel for the stone gazing ability.

Might be a thought for future medusa for you -- after all that all around vision has to come from somewhere.

I'm kicking myself in the head for forgetting about that aspect. :)

I'm definitely sticking one such medusa somewhere as a prominent citizen of Kaer Maga for our CotCT game or our homebrew city for the side campaign.

Probably understandably bitter about the "surgery". Unless they did it themselves....hmm....

Madclaw wrote:
I've really enjoyed reading this. Are there any plans to put more up?

Harpies and drow, if work, life, and Portal 2 permit. ;)

Havelock wrote:

Q: Do kobalds still lay clutches of eggs in Pathfinder? If so hatching them out may be another factor in rearing them.

Q: Do medusea lay eggs or give live birth?

Kobolds definitely still do eggs, as of Classic Monsters Revisited.

As for medusas, I can't help but imagine live birth for them, considering how well they can fit into (demi)huamn civilization and how they rely on their males for reproduction anyway.

Then again, harpies rely on the males of other races as well. I'm honestly torn on which way they would go.


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The Eberon setting had several races living together in the city of Sharn. IIR Medusea were often heads of organized gangs. Goblins were pretty much the bottom rung in every social ladder.

The swamplands to the west were filled with orcs who had a remarkably civil culture. They held half-orcs in high esteem because they combined orcish strength with human cunning.


Mikaze wrote:

I'm definitely sticking one such medusa somewhere as a prominent citizen of Kaer Maga for our CotCT game or our homebrew city for the side campaign.

Probably understandably bitter about the "surgery". Unless they did it themselves....hmm....

May I suggest a "blind" medusa Oracle? That would seem to fit perfectly, especially with a deliberate trade of ordinary vision for magical power / actual oracular ability. Of course, whether she made that trade deliberately is still an open question...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Emerald Wyvern wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

I'm definitely sticking one such medusa somewhere as a prominent citizen of Kaer Maga for our CotCT game or our homebrew city for the side campaign.

Probably understandably bitter about the "surgery". Unless they did it themselves....hmm....

May I suggest a "blind" medusa Oracle? That would seem to fit perfectly, especially with a deliberate trade of ordinary vision for magical power / actual oracular ability. Of course, whether she made that trade deliberately is still an open question...

Hmm, I could see allowing a PC Medusa Blind Oracle. I'm wondering how much to take off the CR for this. They have 8 racial hit dice, and uber stats. However, taking off the Gaze attack...


I honestly think you could kick the racial hit dice without too much problems.

If I want an 'LA 0' blind medusa I would probably do the following:

-2 Str +2 Con +2 Cha
Size/Speed Medium 30 feet
Darkvision 60 feet
All Around Vision
Snake Bite
Poison

And leave it there. Just drop the natural armor, and the gaze all together. Maybe give keen senses since they have a racial +4 to perception... but that would be iffy in my book.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Why, oh why, am I sitting here wondering how one would rehabilitate a beholder?

Dark Archive

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Why, oh why, am I sitting here wondering how one would rehabilitate a beholder?

Some combination of polymorph any object into a dryad and modify memory would likely be required!

I am reminded of an ages-ago Forgotten Realms game where the party had to help a Mind Flayer repel a Githyanki invasion of the material plane...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

I honestly think you could kick the racial hit dice without too much problems.

If I want an 'LA 0' blind medusa I would probably do the following:

-2 Str +2 Con +2 Cha
Size/Speed Medium 30 feet
Darkvision 60 feet
All Around Vision
Snake Bite
Poison

And leave it there. Just drop the natural armor, and the gaze all together. Maybe give keen senses since they have a racial +4 to perception... but that would be iffy in my book.

Personally, I hate the 'Make it a Blah but not a blah'. It ruins the versamillitude for me. A Medusa who, by medusa standards, is an arthritic cripple with a terminal DNA disease is not exactly the deal. :)


mdt wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

I honestly think you could kick the racial hit dice without too much problems.

If I want an 'LA 0' blind medusa I would probably do the following:

-2 Str +2 Con +2 Cha
Size/Speed Medium 30 feet
Darkvision 60 feet
All Around Vision
Snake Bite
Poison

And leave it there. Just drop the natural armor, and the gaze all together. Maybe give keen senses since they have a racial +4 to perception... but that would be iffy in my book.

Personally, I hate the 'Make it a Blah but not a blah'. It ruins the versamillitude for me. A Medusa who, by medusa standards, is an arthritic cripple with a terminal DNA disease is not exactly the deal. :)

By 8th level it's not longer a cripple -- it's simply different than a standard 'commoner' medusa and allows play at level 1 instead of around level 6~8. I would argue that a spell casting medusa with the above at level 8 isn't going to catch any flak from the other medusa.

This one just 'grew up different' so to speak. I figure until a medusa has 8 hit dice it isn't 'fully grown' and in a campaign I used the above in I probably won't use the bestiary medusa as it stands.


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Trolls are perhaps some of the hardest creatures to raise. Their natural ability to heal from most injuries means they can usually be mentally lazy and still live to a fairly old age. These same abilities also cause trouble with their interactions with other species. Where two trolls might think nothing of beating each other to establish dominance or simply as a means of saying hello for other races this can easily be fatal. As such many 'normal' trollish cultural norms simply can not be applied in a civilized raising of a troll.

Trolls must be taught that not everything can simply be healed in most cases. A rather effective method of this is to allow something the troll develops an attachment to become broken. Once broken care must be taken to explain why the thing can not be fixed and how many things are like that in the world. While the troll child might throw a fit about this it is important to not give in and allow him to prove to you that 'anything can be fixed and healed' -- as this defeats the purpose of the lesson. Another method of instilling this lesson is considered fair more dangerous and inhumane but involves allowing the troll to regularly become hurt by fire or acid so that his wounds heal slower. Being exposed to the same mortality and rate of healing of 'normal' folk can cause a troll to understand the world better.

Understanding the fragile nature of the world however simply leads the troll into the next mental pitfall: Frustration at a broken world, and their own feelings of hurt and lost when something they care for breaks. Many trolls do develop deep attachment and devotion to other things and people -- but as the disappointment of these things breaking or dying grounds with each new attachment that is broken the troll becomes more and more frustrated at their inability to fix or heal the hurt to the object and their emotions. Once a troll has learned to be careful around others and things one of the most deep seated frustrations for trolls can be overcome -- specifically that the rest of the world is fragile and can break easily by teaching them out to repair and craft objects and relationships.

With training trolls can learn to be very meticulous and marvelous craftsmen able to mend almost anything. They tend to take great joy in these accomplishments and it often becomes a major part of their physiological make up to be good at this and recognized for it. A troll that isn't complimented on his repair jobs or that is unfavorably compared to another craftsman can quickly find resentment feeling him.

Once the dual hurdle of the fragile nature of the world, and the ability to help fix this is jumped raising trolls becomes a much easier task. With the major frustrations the above problems removed trolls tend to be much more accepting of others, and much more community oriented because they find their skills valued.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I've picked up the troglodyte gauntlet and accepted the challenge.

Wonder how I'll do...

Troglodyte

Recommended Deities: Erastil, The Green Faith
Recommended Environment: Rural Civilization (preferably farmland) or lowly-populated Coastal regions

Troglodytes, by and large, are a race of brutal, cannibalistic savages with a tendency to worship demonic and alien forces of chaos and evil. A bullying, murderous, might-makes-right philosophy is instilled in troglodyte young from such a tender age attempts to reeducate the creatures frequently meet with tragedy. Further complicating the matter are the profane rituals the young reptilians are subjected to even before they are hatched. Therefore, it is recommended any attempt to introduce troglodyte young into good and peaceful societies be conducted at as early an age as possible and then only by skilled animal handl…er, uh, that is to say, specially trained members of the church. In any case, it is never recommended to take on more than one troglodyte at a time unless the creatures are of similar age and gender. Cannibalism or fighting over breeding rights or superiority are bound to occur should the ages and genders be too mixed.

The first step toward habilitating troglodyte young is to “remove them from their caves.” The dark, claustrophobic tunnels troglodytes typically inhabit foster an attitude of selfishness, greed and lust for power as every troglodyte fights to acquire or consume any resource it can use to hold dominion over its peers. A firm, guiding hand and, often regrettably, a shock to the troglodyte’s limited mental faculties is often necessary to break the creature of these habits. Troglodyte young should be removed to as open an area as possible, farmland is optimal but lowly populated coastal regions are also recommended. The creatures may experience agoraphobia from the sudden exposure to such a wide, open space, but the intent is to remove the troglodyte’s constant need to fight for its survival by giving it the breathing room it needs to learn a better way of living. Speaking of breathing room, the open air of a pasture or coastline will also aid considerably in the caretakers’ ability to handle the troglodyte’s musk. The creature’s infamous odor is at its worst when the troglodyte is stirred to anger or fear, but caretakers can use this information to monitor the young’s disposition.

Secondly, troglodytes need to learn the value of teamwork, equality and patience. This is another reason farms and coastal areas are recommended for the taming of troglodyte youth. The duties of farm life or work within a small fishing community rely heavily on trust and patience. While the creatures should be kept away from the actual slaughtering of livestock during their formative years, young troglodytes can be taught basic animal husbandry or fishing skills. These skills mesh well with their inborn predatory and domineering instincts, but do so in a productive way. Under the supervision of a wise priest of Erastil, a troglodyte could learn the discipline it needs to curb its baser desires and the value of its adoptive family. Troglodytes with trouble overcoming their rebellious nature, should be given time and freedom for art therapy. Diverting their chaotic energy into creative pursuits should enforce upon them that there are always alternatives to violence when it comes to revolt.

Finally, it should be noted that troglodytes are a fervently devoted race when it comes to religion. Whether this comes from a natural instinct to defer to a more powerful being or from a lack of intellect leading them to mindlessly follow the advice of crafty and exploitative creatures, we cannot say. What we do know is that troglodyte children take naturally to church services, especially after witnessing any sort of minor miracle. The impulsive natures of some good deities may be too great a temptation for a troglodyte resulting in backsliding. These troglodytes may then spend years in devotion, the whole time entirely missing the benevolent message of the deities they are attempting to placate. Good and neutral deities with a firmer hand and a closer association with nature seem to work out best for the race and insure that their only offense against society is their smell. A troglodyte ranger devoted to Erastil or druid of the Green Faith might, after a fashion, become an indispensable ally and protector to an isolated community.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Abraham Spalding wrote:
all that stuff about trolls

There's an old Dungeon magazine adventure involving a CN troll who fell in love with a beautiful farm girl and would sing to her with an amazing voice from the cover of the nearby swamp every night. Being smaller and weaker than the other trolls, he was often beheaded by the other trolls in his group because they hated to hear him sing. The girl loved to hear the troll's voice, but couldn't be convinced to love him once she learned his identity. Depending on how the party played things out, the singing troll might either resign himself to a life of distant affection or go crazy at the thought of the girl never loving him. It was a good adventure with a very tragic monster.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Trolls are perhaps some of the hardest creatures to raise. Their natural ability to heal from most injuries means they can usually be mentally lazy and still live to a fairly old age. These same abilities also cause trouble with their interactions with other species. Where two trolls might think nothing of beating each other to establish dominance or simply as a means of saying hello for other races this can easily be fatal. As such many 'normal' trollish cultural norms simply can not be applied in a civilized raising of a troll.

That reminds me

Don't remember from where:
Thought it was guide to absalom, but not finding it when I search: The troll didn't turn out good on alignment I think, but there is a troll in Absalom who is a criminal mastermind. Poor thing was picked up as a baby when a crazy alchemist (I think, don't have the book on me) who tested the child regeneration.

The moral being, careful on the use of fire and acid to train baby trolls.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:


By 8th level it's not longer a cripple -- it's simply different than a standard 'commoner' medusa and allows play at level 1 instead of around level 6~8. I would argue that a spell casting medusa with the above at level 8 isn't going to catch any flak from the other medusa.

This one just 'grew up different' so to speak. I figure until a medusa has 8 hit dice it isn't 'fully grown' and in a campaign I used the above in I probably won't use the bestiary medusa as it stands.

If I needed to do that, I'd do the following....

Dex +4, Con +8, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4

Level 1 : Con +2, Class Level 1, Darkvision, 360 Vision
Level 2 : Monstrous HDx2, Con +2
Level 3 : Monstrous HD, Cha +2, Poison
Level 4 : Monstrous HD, Con +2, Dex +2
Level 5 : Monstrous HD, Int +2
Level 6 : Monstrous HD, Con +2
Level 7 : Monstrous HD, Dex +2
Level 8 : Monstrous HD, Cha +2, Gaze

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