"Condition" of Blindness versus "Special Ability" of being Invisible


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

This beaten horse isn't thoroughly dead yet, so I'm gonna full-BAB Power Attack and hope to drop it, once and for all, with big, bloody red Xs in both eyes:

I need a an OFFICIAL RULING REQUEST for all possible interactions of:

* Uncanny Dodge
* Invisible (special ability, whether innate or spell-granted)

(This part of the horse is well-tenderized; now for the rest....)

* Blindness (condition)
* Blind-Fighting
* Bluff/Feint opposed by Perception or Sense Motive (vs. Blindness condition distinct from Invisible opponent)

The text of Uncanny Dodge as opposed to Invisible opponents is fairly to totally clear.

Uncanny Dodge held by a PC suffering the condition of Blindness is not addressed at all.

ALSO: Errata ruling on whether or not the -2 AC penalty of (a) being Blinded, and (b) having an Invisible opponent, stack when Uncanny Dodge or Blind-fighting or something similar is NOT also in play.


Uncanny dodge allows you to keep your dex against hidden/invisible opponents.

Blindfighting does also.

I don't know what you are getting at with the
"Bluff/Feint opposed by Perception or Sense Motive (vs. Blindness condition distinct from Invisible opponent)" line.

If you have uncanny dodge it does not matter if you are blind or not. If the opponent is hidden or invisible you still can't see him, and uncanny dodge does not rely on sight since it is designed to help against things you can't see.

Liberty's Edge

Nothing in the text of Uncanny Dodge or the Blindness condition explicitly renders a Barbarian, et al, immune to the penalties associated with the condition of himself being blinded (players simply assume it because the AC penalty effects are similar to those normally inflicted by creatures with the Invisibility special ability which are obviated by Uncanny Dodge).

Being (a) Blinded, and (b) having an Invisible opponent, may seem similar, but they are not identical. One is worse than the other.

----

THIS IS AN OFFICIAL RULING REQUEST; if you are not associated with the game, please withhold your remarks until they have weighed in. We don't need this thread to be five miles long by the time they get to it.


Mike Schneider wrote:

Nothing in the text of Uncanny Dodge or the Blindness condition explicitly renders a Barbarian, et al, immune to the penalties associated with the condition of himself being blinded (players simply assume it because the AC penalty effects are similar to those normally inflicted by creatures with the Invisibility special ability which are obviated by Uncanny Dodge).

Being (a) Blinded, and (b) having an Invisible opponent, may seem similar, but they are not identical. One is worse than the other.

----

THIS IS AN OFFICIAL RULING REQUEST; if you are not associated with the game, please withhold your remarks until they have weighed in. We don't need this thread to be five miles long by the time they get to it.

Asking for official answer gets you one no faster than not asking for one. I can hit the FAQ button for you though like I have done in others to see if they show up.

PS:I don't have to be an official to be correct. They also tend to respond if more people weigh in, but nobody has specific proof, than on a 1 or 2 post thread. I think I am on this messageboard too much.
Back on topic: If you go to the Ask James Jacobs thread sometimes he answers questions within few minutes, unless you are specifically waiting for Jason or Sean.

PS2:He does not always answer the question, but it is the best bet for a quick answer as opposed to waiting for the errata or an FAQ.

PS3:No typing in all caps. It is considered the same as yelling and considered to be rude.

PS4:That is all for now.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Stuff attempting to get attention.

You don't need an official ruling to clear up something you can verify by checking the relevant entries.

Click To See Text:
At 3rd level, a stalwart defender gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flatfooted, even if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A stalwart defender with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him.

If the character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below).

Invisibility wrote:

Click To See Text:
Invisibility

The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger's favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.
Invisible creature is... Perception
In combat or speaking –20
Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving –40
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature's current location. If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow invisible creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy's not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there and tell him that the character has missed, regardless of the result. That way the player doesn't know whether the attack missed because the enemy's not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour falls off or blows away).

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature's location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light or similar spell cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Perception checks, scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Perception checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart divination spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

Blinded wrote:
Click To See Text:
Blinded: The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Blind-Fight wrote:

Click To See Text:
Blind-Fight (Combat)

You are skilled at attacking opponents that you cannot clearly perceive.

Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment (see Combat), you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit.

An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker's bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.

You do not need to make Acrobatics skill checks to move at full speed while blinded.

Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies.

Special: The Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell.

Flat-Footed wrote:

Click To See Text:
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.

Inaction: Even if you can't take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter.

So, in order:

Uncanny Dodge - They cannot be flatfooted (even against invisibility). Immobilization still eliminates their Dexterity bonus to AC. A successful feint is still effective at removing their Dexterity bonus to Ac.

Invisibility - Vision cannot detect them (normally). An Invisible creature, even pinpointed, still has full concealment, and an opponent with Blind-Fight rolls the concealment chance against an Invisible creature a second time if the first one misses.

Blinded - You have -2 to AC, lose your Dex bonus to AC, and take a penalty on some skill checks and opposed Perception rolls. Things that RELY on vision fail automatically (e.g. reading or determining the color of something, but not all perception and not all combat). All opponents receive full concealment against you. You must make a DC 10 Acrobatics check to move more than half speed (falling prone on a failure).

Blind-Fight - Reroll your miss chance from concealment in combat if you missed the first time. You deny melee invisible attackers any bonuses to attacking you they would normally get.

Also, the skills Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive, and the feint action using Bluff do not rely on vision alone, so it doesn't even need to be covered here.

Everything is pretty self-explanatory, with the exception of Blinded not specifically stating that all opponents of a Blinded creature are considered invisible against the Blinded creature, but I think it's pretty obvious that they are considered invisible against a Blinded creature.

I just tried to simplify the relevant text so that it's easier to interpret the interactions. If there's a problem, I'm not seeing it (heh), but maybe you can point out what you are having trouble understanding now that I've taken the time to simplify and condense the text to the relevant bits.


He wants it stated in exact words. Cross referencing isn't good enough.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
:I don't have to be an official to be correct.

And I don't have to provide photographic evidence that I am an exceptionally well-hung centaur in order to actually be one. You'll just have to trust me.

(IOW, it helps, with certainty, to cite something.)

-- Cite official text explicitly precluding characters with Uncanny Dodge from the AC penalties bestowed by, specifically, the Blindness condition.

Good luck.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Everything is pretty self-explanatory, with the exception of Blinded not specifically stating that all opponents of a Blinded creature are considered invisible against the Blinded creature, but I think it's pretty obvious that they are considered invisible against a Blinded creature.

It's only "pretty obvious" if you assume that a worse affliction is eliminated by an ability which alleviates a similar, lesser one. -- How do you respond to your DM if he tells you that your barbarian is screwed while blind because he normally sees things like dust whirling on the floor (or whatever) when he's dealing with invisible opponents? ("Hang on while I check the FAQ at Paizo!")

There's also my second request (in the thread-founding post) concerning AC penalty stacking.


Mike Schneider wrote:
It's only "pretty obvious" if you run afoul of the logical fallacy of assuming that a larger "set" is government by the same restrictions of a smaller contained set.

No, that's a complete misrepresentation, and you do an extreme disservice to logic by your pathetic attempt to abuse it. Don't do that again, because you clearly don't comprehend logic.

If your problem was just with that one interaction, then you should have made your thread asking about that one interaction, instead of demanding ALL POSSIBLE INTERACTIONS, which is a fairly absurd request.

Mike Schneider wrote:
There's also my second request in the thread-founding post.

Oh, really? What is it?

"MY WORD IS ABSOLUTE IN MY THREAD!!!"?

I only see one compounded request in it, but if you meant for one of those following lines to be a second request, it's hard to discern clearly.


Mike Schneider wrote:
Quote:
:I don't have to be an official to be correct.

And I don't have to provide photographic evidence that I am an exceptionally well-hung centaur in order to actually be one. You'll just have to trust me.

(IOW, it helps, with certainty, to cite something.)

-- Cite official text explicitly precluding characters with Uncanny Dodge from the AC penalties bestowed by, specifically, the Blindness condition.

Good luck.

How exactly do you plan to get a dev to see your thread if nobody post in it?<---Rhetorical question. By 10am it will probably be off the main page, just saying. You must be new around here if you think asking for officials is a factor in them showing up. Not to pick on Raving Dork, but the last time he did that he had to wait for 98 post before someone showed up. Most of the time it just doesn't happen. The best way to get this done is to get people to come here and hit that FAQ button, not try to run people off.

Liberty's Edge

Nigrescence, can we keep the discussion civil, please?

In my most recent post, I asked: How do you respond to your DM if he tells you that your barbarian is screwed while blind because he normally sees things like dust whirling on the floor (or whatever) when he's dealing with invisible opponents?

You can eliminate the problem of an invisible opponent by killing it. You cannot eliminate the problem of being blinded by killing your opponent -- you're still going to stumble around -4 to Perception, STR and DEX checks, and fall on your face if you blow your Acrobatics check to move faster than half-speed. There's also the suspension of reality problem of getting your DM to accept that your blinded barbarian can still see the tip of his feinting rogue's rapier jiggering about.

They're not the same things. The fact that Uncanny Dodge precludes your barbarian from becoming Flat-Footed does not mean that he immune from losing his DEX bonus while suffering other effects which produce results which might be similar or even identical to those of the first effect in question (which would normally imposed Flat-Footedness). -- This is a fighting game; tons of things impose penalties to AC and deny DEX.

Quote:
How exactly do you plan to get a dev to see your thread if nobody post in it?<---Rhetorical question.

Haven't a clue. If they don't read 'em, then ... <shrug>

If there's a section where questions can be posed where only reps answer, I'd be happy to post there.

Quote:
Not to pick on Raving Dork, but...

<hoot!> Is that an actual handle around here? <chuckle>


Mike Schneider wrote:
Nigrescence, can we keep the discussion civil, please?

I don't know. Can you? Try not to misrepresent my statements and pretend as if you know anything about logic.

Mike Schneider wrote:
How do you respond to your DM if he tells you that your barbarian is screwed while blind because he normally sees things like dust whirling on the floor (or whatever) when he's dealing with invisible opponents?

You tell him that having vision is not at all a requirement for the Uncanny Dodge ability to work. It's exactly as it says, uncanny. There's no clear explanation for how exactly you managed to dodge it, but you did. It's not Keen Eye Dodge or Tuned Ears Dodge. It's an Uncanny Dodge. There's no real explanation for how or why you dodged. Maybe you were lucky. Maybe you have a supernatural reflex. Whatever the case may be, vision is not a requirement for it to work.

Uncanny Dodge wrote:
At INSERTNUMBERHERE level, a CLASSNAMEHERE gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so.

It's before their senses would normally allow them to react. Meaning this dodge occurs before their senses would ever kick in. Meaning no sense is ever tied to this ability.

Like I said, I thought it was pretty clear.


Mike Schneider wrote:
They're not the same things. The fact that Uncanny Dodge precludes your barbarian from becoming Flat-Footed does not mean that he immune from losing his DEX bonus

Flat footed: This is correct. Being flat footed is only one of the ways to be denied your Dexterity Bonus.

See: Helpless, Paralyzed, Pinned, Stunned

Uncanny Dodge: eventhough you keep your dex, the invisible character still gets the +2 to hit you if it is invisible. With Blnd fight, it only gets the +2 if attacking at range.

Feint: it is true that someone can feint you with sound or other things. Think: A rogue throws a rock against the opposite wall while you are blinded, you turn towards the sound...

When you are feinted you lose your dex, not flat-footed and you always go against your Sense Motive if you are trained in it (and it's higher than your BAB + WIS).

I'm having a hard time following this thread to be honest...


Mike Schneider wrote:


If there's a section where questions can be posed where only reps answer, I'd be happy to post there.

Quote:
Not to pick on Raving Dork, but...
<hoot!> Is that an actual handle around here? <chuckle>

Yes it is a handle and he is well-known for insisting on certain rules clarifications

James Jacobs has a fan-made thread he responds to at times.
The Ask James Jacobs Thread

Liberty's Edge

Stynkk wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
They're not the same things. The fact that Uncanny Dodge precludes your barbarian from becoming Flat-Footed does not mean that he immune from losing his DEX bonus
This is correct. Being flat footed is only one of the ways to be denied your Dexterity Bonus. See: Helpless, Paralyzed, Pinned, Stunned

Or Climb, et al.

(Thanks.)

Wrathstrike wrote:
....The Ask James Jacobs Thread

That would be an example of a non-obvious thread for someone such as myself who only drops in here occasionally.

(Thanks.)

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