Magical Lineage trait question


Rules Questions


ETA: I'm going to leave the question posted, because part of it is still valid. The "special case" issue at the tail-end of the post is mooted, however, since Arcane Talent creates a Spell-like Ability.

APG, p329

Does this affect the spell's base level or does this affect the level adjustment(s) incurred by by applying metamagic feats to the spell?

Frex, if Magical Lineage adjusts the *spell level*:

Magic Missile (1st lvl spell), modified by Magical Lineage trait to be a 0th-lvl spell, then increased to a 2nd-lvl spell by the Sickening Spell metamagic feat (APG, p169).

Magic Missile (1st lvl spell), modified by Magical Lineage trait to be a 0th-lvl spell, then not increased by applying the Merciful Spell metamagic feat (APG, p165).

But 0th-lvl spells don't have a slot? So how does a spellcaster who selected a 1st-lvl spell as the target of Magical Lineage cast it if the metamagic feat doesn't raise the spell-slot needed? Hm. So should Magical Lineage actually reduce the number of slots a metamagic feat adds to a spell (with a minimum of 0)? That way, in example two above, the Merciful Magic Missile remains a 1st-lvl spell.

(I think Merciful Spell is the only one that doesn't raise the affected spell by at least +1 spell-slot, so this is a very "special-case" issue.)

ETA: Everything south of this line mooted by my misunderstanding of Arcane Talent.

The drawback to reducing slots added comes into play with this build:

Elf/Half-elf/Gnome non-spellcasting PC takes Arcane Talent (APG, p151) and selects Ray of Frost as his cantrip which he can cast 3x per day. PC also has the Magical Lineage trait with - big surprise - Ray of Frost
as the selected spell. PC can now begin taking metamagic feats which raise the spell-slot required by +1 and applying them to his Ray of Frost, which reduces the spell-slot increase by 1 (if that's the goal of Magical Lineage), resulting in no increase of spell-slot level and theoretically still capable of being cast by our non-spellcaster.

Sub-optimal build? *snort* I'd say so. Possible? Well. Depends on the intent of Magical Lineage. Playable? I'd love to give it a go. >:>


"Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
So just when meta magic is applied - extreme case would me a metea magic feat that adds +0, so reduces the level of the spell. A better wording is to reduce the effective modifier a meta magic feat by 1 to a minimum of +0.


Actually, the wording of the trait is really weird, if you go hardcore RAW. What it changes isn't spell slot required, but actual spell level. This means a Silent Glitterdust would be a 1st level spell prepared in a 2nd level slot, having a spell DC of 11+Mod.

A Merciful Fireball would be a 2nd level spell in a 2nd level slot, having a DC of 12+Mod.

It's of course obvious this isn't the RAI, and I assume the trait should read more along the lines of:
"Benefit: Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to the spell, it may be prepared in a slot one level lower than it would normally be, to a minimum of a spell slot equal to it's spell level."


Yeah - I believe RAI was not to reduce the DC of the spell, which is what happens with the RAW.


Between this trait and those 3.5 feats (Arcane Thesis, for instance), we can start applying metamagic feats to Fireballs at spell level 1. Some other feats (Practiced Metamagic, for instance) lower the cost of a metamagic feat. We can then have an Empowered Fireball at spell level 2, or a Maximized one at spell level 3.

And then, the APG gives us Spell Perfection. Between this and Residual Metamagic, we can cast Quickened and Twinned Intensified Fireballs all day long for free... until we run out of 2nd level spell slots. Then we use 3rd level slots, then 4th, etc. for even more cheese... er, I mean metamagic feats. Of course.

But that's a lot of feats and the character would be pretty much specialized.

Scarab Sages

Back in the day, there were a few builds that just went crazy with all the 3.5 splat stuff.

There was a commoner with 9th level spells, for example. There were 24 hour cleric buffs going on. There were maximized, empowered, split, quickened, ect. rays flying around the room at 5th level.

the 3.5 splat got really bad with the power creep. However, 3.5 did add in a caveat at the end that metamagic could not reduce the spell level below its actual level. Basically, move into 3.5 territory and it's not surprising to fireball all day long.

back in the day... *sigh*

psionic builds with 18 attacks
the ogre spring attack chain wielder
pun pun the level 1 kobold god
casters with 9th lvl divine and 8th lvl arcane spells by 20th level
man... there was a LOT of cheese


Magicdealer wrote:
casters with 9th lvl divine and 8th lvl arcane spells by 20th level

Please... 9th arcane 9th divine was possible before 20. Thechallenge was to get a triple threat (16 bab or 9th level psi powers in addition to that)...

Simple non cheesy arcane9th Divine 9th at 20 would be druid 3/wizard 3/Arcane hierophant 10/ Mystic Theurge 4.

Cheesier methods usually had 1 or 2 levels of Ur Priest. Add in some bloodlines with poor wording for stratospheric caster levels. For flavor I liked the Titan bloodline since he hated the gods due to them beign usurpers of his rightful place.


Doc_Outlands wrote:
Yeah - I believe RAI was not to reduce the DC of the spell, which is what happens with the RAW.

That's not how I see it. It only changes the level of the spell for purposes of "determining the spell’s final adjusted level". For every other purpose, the spell's level is treated normally (e.g. for purposes of determining the spell's DC, for instance, or for determining whether it's a cantrip or not).

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