Brutal Maneuvers


Homebrew and House Rules

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Just had an idea - how about including demoralize as an option instead of a combat manoeuvre?


Pual wrote:
Just had an idea - how about including demoralize as an option instead of a combat manoeuvre?

Hmmm. Like, you demoralize as part of an attack? Some people might like that. I've personally been focused on more kinetic results.


Maybe there should be an offset. Something to discourage the constant use of combining melee attacks and maneuvers constantly. One offset could be, when the attacker uses a sweeping motion to perform a trip as part of their attack, the get a -2 penalty to ac until the start of their next turn since they are partially prone themselves. Of course I could see a problem with this penalty in the case of pole arms though.

We could simply allow the improved maneuver feats to deal damage, or half damage and let the greater feats deal full damage.

I'll elaborate on these a bit later.


Robert Petty wrote:

Maybe there should be an offset. Something to discourage the constant use of combining melee attacks and maneuvers constantly. One offset could be, when the attacker uses a sweeping motion to perform a trip as part of their attack, the get a -2 penalty to ac until the start of their next turn since they are partially prone themselves. Of course I could see a problem with this penalty in the case of pole arms though.

We could simply allow the improved maneuver feats to deal damage, or half damage and let the greater feats deal full damage.

I'll elaborate on these a bit later.

For my part, an offset specifically countermands the goal of making them as good or better than basic HP attacks.

That said, the feat version on the prior page does include an inherent drawback — since the attack roll must beat both CMD and AC to have an effect, even from first level onward it will fail more often than a standard attack will.


If you want brutal fights you might want to take a look at this crit/fumble table to use in conjunction with your maneuvers rule.


Okay! So here are some more ways to do this. In the end every one will find something that suits them out of all the ideas floating around here.

Hard Rules:
As Evil Lincoln suggests, simply add combat maneuvers to attack rolls and compare both the hit roll to Ac, and cmb to cmd. Either both need to succeed to land the attack, or simply apply each successful result. And finally roll all the improved combat maneuver feats together as a normal part of the rules. Only problem wit this is every attack could end up as the same maneuver, which could result in boredom, frustration and a lack of the climatic sense of combat these rules are supposed to provide.

Black Rabbit suggested adding these effects to critical hits, this makes the chances of landing an effect less likely, Which for some would be idle, while to others wouldn't be useful enough.

Feats:
My favorite way to go about this is to bring back tactical feats. Feats that allow 2 or 3 abilities, but each has a condition that the user must either setup, or be in a fortunate circumstance to accomplish. Most of the members here don't seem to like adding feats to what they perceive as actions any combatant should be able to perform any way.

Gear:
I suggested earlier to have weapons that allow the use of such maneuvers to deal damage when said maneuver is successful. Only problems I see is the utter lack of weapons that allow the use of maneuvers, and that this won't allow the use of every maneuver with each weapon.


DrDew wrote:
If you want brutal fights you might want to take a look at this crit/fumble table to use in conjunction with your maneuvers rule.

Nice! Hearkens back to my MERP days.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
DrDew wrote:
If you want brutal fights you might want to take a look at this crit/fumble table to use in conjunction with your maneuvers rule.
Nice! Hearkens back to my MERP days.

MERP?


DrDew wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
DrDew wrote:
If you want brutal fights you might want to take a look at this crit/fumble table to use in conjunction with your maneuvers rule.
Nice! Hearkens back to my MERP days.
MERP?

Middle Earth Role Playing


MERP (and Rolemaster, I believe) had a big elaborate crit table. It was fun in a unique sort of way.

I love descriptive tables, but I would contrast them with what we're doing here with Brutal Maneuvers.

Tables give you a "see what happens" style of melee combat, whereas manuevers (when worth doing) ought to encourage a "try something" style of combat. Tables have a huge body of results to draw on and are unpredictable, maneuvers have a smaller list and are tactical.

It's a neat table, I'm gonna file that away (since I occasionally want such things as a GM)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

How would this address missile combat?


Chris Mortika wrote:
How would this address missile combat?

By default, it wouldn't. I think there's a PrC that allows certain ranged maneuvers, but in general all maneuvers specify melee.

That's fine. The majority of missiles in the game don't provide enough force to really push people around. Missiles that do, like huge boulders and such, are really better handled as small area attacks that allow reflex saves, because often a human being couldn't realistically survive a direct hit. That's a house rule, and a good one. (thanks Jason Nelson!)

In my humble opinion, ranged attacks are better than ever in Pathfinder. I rather like that they will have limited maneuver utility, it makes a nice counterbalance to the obvious utility of killing from a distance.


I really like this idea, but I fear spam-trips and the like which could bog down or make fights extremely one-sided.

So thinking on it, I had an idea. What if instead of triggering a maneuver as written with each attack, instead we come up with lesser effects. For instance, an attack against someones legs don't send them automatically sprawling but knocks them off-center, giving opponents a +2 bonus to hit them until they can correct themselves (which is just by their turn coming around), so it gives the brutality of a chop at someone's legs with a correspongind mechanical bonus, but now they aren't prone and don't have to suffer AoO to stand as well as losing a move action.

Each maneuver would have a similar lesser effect

Bull Rush: pushes the target back 5ft, but no farther. Or maybe it uses up their 5ft step for the turn, but doesn't actually move them?

Disarm: target loses a sure grip on their weapon and no longer threaten an area with it until they can recover (again until the start of their next turn)

Sunder: you deal damage to the object and any remaining damage carries on to the character (so you have to hack through their shield before getting nommy nommy flesh underneath)

Grapple: only usable with an unarmed attack, opponent gains the grappled condition until their next turn. Not really liking that one, but just throwin out there.

and so on...


Soon starting up a new campaign. I play E7, so they'll be low-level, and this is my take on the Prez's idea that I'll playtest:
- All brutal maneuvers can be used at no penalty whenever you'd make a standard attack. It also works fully with single-attack charges (not pounces) and spring attack. It can be used with Vital Strike. The kind of maneuver and it's previous action type doesn't affect it now.

- Brutal maneuver Grapple deals unarmed damage.
- Brutal maneuver Bull rush can only be used with a bludgeoning weapon (including an unarmed attack)
- Dirty Trick cannot cause blinding by the first try. If you apply the "dazzle" condition to a dazzled target by this maneuver though, the target is blinded.

- Standing up from prone and picking up a dropped weapons can both be done as a non-provoking move action by succeeding on an acrobatics check (DC 10). With a DC 25 check, it can be done as a swift action.

- Prone as a condition grants only a -2/+2 penalty/bonus, rather than the normal -4. This is in all cases of prone, not just due to combat maneuvers.

- Unarmed damage is increased and based on BAB. Unarmed damage is for creatures of different sizes:
BAB Small Medium Large
1 - 1d3 - 1d4 - 1d6
4 - 1d4 - 1d6 - 1d8
8 - 1d6 - 1d8 - 1d10
12 - 1d8 - 1d10 - 2d6
16 - 1d10 - 2d6 - 2d8
20 - 2d6 - 2d8 - 2d10
When determining the unarmed damage of a monk, treat him as one size larger than he is and use his monk level instead of his BAB (this results in the same damage table as normal).

-------

I'll report back with how it went.


Stringburka, those look like excellent rules, especially:

stringburka wrote:
- Dirty Trick cannot cause blinding by the first try. If you apply the "dazzle" condition to a dazzled target by this maneuver though, the target is blinded.

...which merits consideration as a general house rule on its own.


Evil Lincoln wrote:


stringburka wrote:
- Dirty Trick cannot cause blinding by the first try. If you apply the "dazzle" condition to a dazzled target by this maneuver though, the target is blinded.
...which merits consideration as a general house rule on its own.

Yeah, thought it makes sense and it follows the same pattern as fatigued>exhausted and shaken>frightened>panicked. I don't know if nauseated>sickened does that, but I think it should.

The danger, though, is the Flare cantrip. A cantrip granting blind for a minute seems a little strong, but on the other hand, it requires some other source of dazzling too or being cast twice.

Still, there's plently of light-sensitive enemies encountered at low levels that might be dazzled. Orcs in sunlight for example.


Hm. Yeah, it definitely makes flare better. I can't recall seeing it cast ever, so maybe that's a good thing.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Hm. Yeah, it definitely makes flare better. I can't recall seeing it cast ever, so maybe that's a good thing.

That's because you were blind(-sided) from seeing it cast. ;-)


Dragonsong wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dotted.
double dotted.

Double dog dotted.

Sczarni

Varthanna wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Dotted.
double dotted.
Double dog dotted.

Dotted this dastardly devious dogma!


I like that rule about blinding! Very nice.


used the version I posted upthread for Brutal Maneuvers in Sunday's game. They worked really well and made combat more than just marking down numbers. After a few rounds, players started getting into it and started really describing their attacks. The bonuses for the maneuvers worked nicely, not to overpowered and kept from being cheesy. Later on I see these working great to bring down some bigger foes or allow hordes to pose a threat to more experienced characters.

I heartily endorse these rules!


The only thing I can add to this thread is: maybe Awesome Blow would be less "Awesome" if every large monsters could do it, at every turns.

Don't get me wrong, I like maneuvres, but I just don't believe that they should be spawned at every turns. It would be great if Ultimate Combat included feats that let you use very powerful maneuvres, but only once or twice per battle, like in ToB:Bot9S.

The problem with maveuvres in Pathfinder is that, either you never use them, because you don't have the feats, or you always use them, because you have the feats. A middle ground between those two extremes would be great, so I understand what you're trying to do here. I'll come back here from time to time to see how it balances in your various games.


yukongil, what were the exact rules you decided on in the end? I'd be very interested to know.


Mortuum wrote:
yukongil, what were the exact rules you decided on in the end? I'd be very interested to know.

I'd like to know as well. Spell them out for us rulebook style?


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Mortuum wrote:
yukongil, what were the exact rules you decided on in the end? I'd be very interested to know.
I'd like to know as well. Spell them out for us rulebook style?

Also How is your implimentation of brutal manuevers going Evil?


no problem, I'll just copy/paste the little write up I gave my playes to explain them.

Brutal Maneuvers
Brutal Maneuvers add a layer of gritty realism to combat, punctuating each strike and blow with a related effect, similar to that of a Combat Maneuver, though with a lesser effect. Any and every strike is a brutal maneuver, though to gain the benefit of the maneuver the player must describe his attack and how it accomplishes the maneuver. For instance, an attack to knock one’s opponent off-balance may be described; with a vicious grin, I kneel low and swing my axe in a deadly arc at my opponents knee, or an attempt to hew through an opponents shield might be described as; with a thunderous battle cry I slash down on my foe, seeking to power through his shield and the meaty flesh of his arm! Brutal!
Brutal Maneuvers are all about building a scene through one’s attacks and making each hit count for more than just numbers.
A Brutal Maneuver is accomplished through the description of a character’s attack to determine the effect of a successful attack. To determine the success of the maneuver however, one must successfully hit their opponent and then compare the initial attack result against the opponent’s CMD. If the attack roll meets or exceeds the opponent’s CMD, the Brutal Maneuver has succeeded and the opponent takes the appropriate penalty. Unlike their full Combat Maneuver counterparts, Brutal Maneuvers do not provoke Attacks of Opportunity, though any bonuses one would receive for attempting a Combat Maneuver add to the initial attack result against the opponent’s CMD. Lastly, a character may spend 1 Action Point to be immune to the effects of any successful Brutal Maneuver for the rest of the turn as a free-action.

Bull Rush: With a successful maneuver the opponent is sent reeling from the blow and loses the ability on their next turn to make a 5 ft. step, though this does not count against them for making a normal move and this 5 ft. is not subtracted from their available movement on their turn. In addition, any Bull Rush attempt against the opponent before the start of his next turn receives a +2 circumstance bonus to their CMB to attempt the Bull Rush.
Disarm: With a successful maneuver the opponent loses his grip on his weapon but does not drop it, this causes the opponent to lose the ability to threaten an area with the weapon until the start of his next turn when he can resume a proper grip as a free action. In addition, any Disarm attempt against the opponent before the start of his next turn receives a +2 circumstance bonus to their CMB to attempt the Disarm.
Sunder: With a successful maneuver you may deal damage to both an opponent and one item you could normally sunder. Both the item and the opponent receive ½ the damage you would normally inflict, minus the items Hardness. For example; if you attempted to Brutally Sunder an opponent’s steel shield, you would roll damage as normal, subtract the Hardness of 10 from that total and then deal ½ of that total to both the shield and the opponent.
Trip: With a successful maneuver you succeed in knocking your opponent off-balance. Any attack made against the opponent receives a +2 bonus to attack until the start of the opponent’s next turn.

so this is the working model I'm going with now. Sunder came up once and worked okay, but I'm running in a low material, high damage world (Darksun), but I think it might be next to useless with steel weaponry and armor's Hardness, at least at low levels, but maybe that's okay.
Already there are some gross synergies going on, with Large creatures and reach, if they can push a creature back or keep them at bay, Bull Rush becomes NASTY! No 5ft. steps in safely. Disarm is great if you lack Mobility or Acrobatics, Trip helps the entire party and is pretty nice against a single big bad.

I'm thinking of adding in Dirty Tricks with similiar lesser conditions, I was just pressed for time and space when I wrote that up for my game, but I can't really think of any lesser effects for Drag, Steal, Reposition, Overrun (though I guess a simplee mechanic of busting through someone's square based on attack roll, might be okay for a Fighter type against Tumbling through) and the others.


Dragonsong wrote:
Also How is your implimentation of brutal manuevers going Evil?

I am the Brutal Maneuverer PC test case in Evil Lincoln's Campaign. I have the feat, but have yet to use it in the massive multi session combat we are running. I hope to use it next session, but my opponent that I am trying to keep busy, while the rest of the party kills the main enemy, has a very high CMD and AC so it is unlikely that I will meet with much success. However after this fight ends and the campaign gets on, I will report my success/ failure and any comments.

~sidthesquish


As Mr. Squish says, we're currently embroiled in a huge battle at Ft Rannick (we're off the Runelords path), and I am worried about introducing new rules during such an important session. I have allowed players to pick up the feat (including as part of battle adaptation) but I haven't used Brutal Maneuvers with my NPCs yet.

After next session, when we return to lower-stakes adventuring, I will begin testing more thoroughly.


Thanks yukongil.

I'll be interested to see how the full strength manoeuvres testing goes. I suspect my preferred level of craziness will be somewhere between the two.


posting for the dot.


Dotting for future reference.
I'll show this to my two groups and see what they say.


Stringburka had this update in another thread:

stringburka wrote:

We're using it so that maneuvers deal your unarmed damage unless you've got a trip etc weapon. On a nat 20 critical you also get a free maneuver of your choice if the roll beats the CMD (which it usually does on a crit).

Also, a successful acrobatics check lets you stand up from prone as part of a move action (rather than it's own action), the same is true for picking up items from the ground.

There's some more rules I don't remember of the top of my head though.

Edit: Also, now the Improved Maneuver feats give you a +2 bonus to attack rolls when you try to use the maneuver without dealing damage, and in addition allows you to deal any melee weapon damage when using it with a weapon (but then you don't get +2).


It took me a while, but I finally recalled where I'd seen a similar mechanic before: Universal Monster Rules, the Trip trait. I'm going to give this a shot in my next campaign. I love the idea, and I think I'll take it slow and go with the feat version with a minor change that reflects the Trip trait mechanic, i.e. successful attack with damage as a standard action allows the free maneuver check & make a list of the maneuvers available for such a thing (or a list of those it doesn't work with, if it's shorter).

Grand Lodge

Relooking at this.


So very interested in this. I agree with someone's suggestion earlier in the thread, that combat maneuvers should be organized by what the end result is. Some of them (Bull Rush, Disarm, Sunder, Drag, Reposition) are just so darn situational. I like the suggestion that prone only grants +2/-2, since I think that makes Trip alone less attractive but it makes grouped maneuver suggestions (like brutal maneuvers), less objectionable. Consider this rambling my dot for interest!


A successful combat maneuver also deals damage to the target as though the attacker had made a successful unarmed strike with an off-hand.


For me, personally, I feel like 1d3+1/2STR is weak sauce. It's better than nothing, but I don't know if it would be good enough for me, as a player, to care about.

I really love the idea of Brutal Combat, but one of the things that it brings out to me is that combat maneuvers are kind of wonky. They're a highly specific, feat intensive fighting style whose combat utility ranges from really awesome to nigh useless, depending on the situation. Brutal Combat helps alleviate the pain of choosing between damage and a cool status effect, but then you're still left with the fact that, unless your GM tailors encounters to this combat style, your 1-4 feats (depending on house rules like dropping Combat Expertise and how far you invested in a chain) become completely useless against 50-75% of the opponents in the game.

I know that's not the point of this thread, but I feel like it's a related issue.

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