Refusal to Show Mercy... Evil?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


So if a newborn human infant involuntarily peed on the Wicked Witch of the West, and she started going "I'm melting! I'm melting!" how would that be any different from a baby medusa looking at a monk?

Similarly, if there were a convention of people with deadly peanut allergies, and Mr. Peanut walked into the room unaware of this, and people started dropping dead like he was a basilisk, what exactly should be done about the giant top-hatted and monocled sentient peanut? Is he an abomination sent by the gods?

Mr. Peanut is a direct threat to a lot of people, and so he must be removed for the greater good, by any means necessary.

And thank you for creating a moment where the sentence above made contextual sense.

In the above, Mr. Peanut is actively dangerous, and his intent is unknown. I would assume he came (or was sent) with malicious intent, since this is the equivalent of delivering a kryptonite cake to a superman convention.

If the party was sent to rescue the "Good" medusa, then it would be evil to kill her. If the party didn't know one way or the other for certain if she was the rare "good" medusa or evil just like the medusa in mythology or the beastiary, then they should do what they were made to do. Kill dangerous monsters in dungeons.


Smurfin' my post count.


Convention of people with deadly peanut allergies aside, Mr. Peanut is evil and must be stopped. Why? He's actively engaged in selling his own kind as food to another species!

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
ciretose wrote:

So by your logic, it was evil to kill the baby as well, even though it presented a clear and present danger to both the group and the world at large.

In your games, is the surprise round used as a time to discuss the morality of killing the ooze that can't really be expected to know right from wrong?

By my logic I don't think that most medusas being evil is the same as all medusas being evil.

How is that baby a danger to the world? I will give you the group argument

An ooze is an active hunter, a baby monster, at least this one, is not.

I am not saying the baby should live, just because it is baby. I just disagree with the logic of something trying to kill you vs something that is doing so by accident being in the same category. The Mr.Peanut example given by another poster comes to mind.

example:
I killed the baby because it may have killed me.<--That is fine.
I killed the baby because it is trying to kill me.<--Not fine, because that is a false statement.

The baby can, and did, turn people to stone with it's gaze.

It is a danger to the party, it is a danger to anyone who doesn't want to be turned to stone.

Should the party have opened a daycare?

Liberty's Edge

Hippygriff wrote:
Convention of people with deadly peanut allergies aside, Mr. Peanut is evil and must be stopped. Why? He's actively engaged in selling his own kind as food to another species!

Mr. Peanut, Chaotic Evil.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ciretose wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


So if a newborn human infant involuntarily peed on the Wicked Witch of the West, and she started going "I'm melting! I'm melting!" how would that be any different from a baby medusa looking at a monk?

Similarly, if there were a convention of people with deadly peanut allergies, and Mr. Peanut walked into the room unaware of this, and people started dropping dead like he was a basilisk, what exactly should be done about the giant top-hatted and monocled sentient peanut? Is he an abomination sent by the gods?

Mr. Peanut is a direct threat to a lot of people, and so he must be removed for the greater good, by any means necessary.

And thank you for creating a moment where the sentence above made contextual sense.

In the above, Mr. Peanut is actively dangerous, and his intent is unknown. I would assume he came (or was sent) with malicious intent, since this is the equivalent of delivering a kryptonite cake to a superman convention.

If the party was sent to rescue the "Good" medusa, then it would be evil to kill her. If the party didn't know one way or the other for certain if she was the rare "good" medusa or evil just like the medusa in mythology or the beastiary, then they should do what they were made to do. Kill dangerous monsters in dungeons.

Being dangerous does not mean you deserve to die, nor does having a label of monster. Should they go around killing CR 7 casters in case they decide to take over the world at some point? They are just as dangerous as that medusa.

Lack of knowledge does not make the action less evil. If the medusa intended harm to anyone they would have gotten a double helping of gaze attacks.

PS: I will also add that if a GM wants his sentient monsters to be treated humanely he should portray them as such from time to time. If he always has them act like monsters with no regard for life that is how they will be treated. I am making my arguments based on a world where monsters are not just "monsters".

Liberty's Edge

Hippygriff wrote:


No? It's based on she's seriously injured and she wants to survive, neither of which require her to be good or neutral. It was in her best interest to get them to accept her surrender no matter what her alignment was.

Let's be clear on what I've been saying, would granting her mercy be the right thing to do? Not necessarily. Kill her without thinking? No. The right thing was for the group to stop for a moment to decide what to do. Frankly there's a lot of information we don't have and we don't know what the players did know. And granting or denying mercy should be a group decision, not just one player's decision.

Should.

And if wishes were fishes we would all eat well.

The Monk made an executive decision

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You know, I hear that azatas are immune to petrification...


ciretose wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
ciretose wrote:

So by your logic, it was evil to kill the baby as well, even though it presented a clear and present danger to both the group and the world at large.

In your games, is the surprise round used as a time to discuss the morality of killing the ooze that can't really be expected to know right from wrong?

By my logic I don't think that most medusas being evil is the same as all medusas being evil.

How is that baby a danger to the world? I will give you the group argument

An ooze is an active hunter, a baby monster, at least this one, is not.

I am not saying the baby should live, just because it is baby. I just disagree with the logic of something trying to kill you vs something that is doing so by accident being in the same category. The Mr.Peanut example given by another poster comes to mind.

example:
I killed the baby because it may have killed me.<--That is fine.
I killed the baby because it is trying to kill me.<--Not fine, because that is a false statement.

The baby can, and did, turn people to stone with it's gaze.

It is a danger to the party, it is a danger to anyone who doesn't want to be turned to stone.

Should the party have opened a daycare?

And I quote:

wraithstrike wrote:


I am not saying the baby should live, just because it is baby. I just disagree with the logic of something trying to kill you vs something that is doing so by accident being in the same category. The Mr.Peanut example given by another poster comes to mind.

example:
I killed the baby because it may have killed me.<--That is fine.
I killed the baby because it is trying to kill me.<--Not fine, because that is a false statement.

In short they should have killed it under the circumstances. It is more dangerous in my opinion than the mother. At least she is able to control her powers by not looking at people or covering her face.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
You know, I hear that azatas are immune to petrification...

Yes, yes they are. Good to know.

So much for those statues I wanted for the hallway…

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...


ciretose wrote:
The Monk made an executive decision

Not so much decision as knee-jerk reaction going by what we have so far.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...
PRD wrote:
Azatas are a race of celestials native to the plane of Elysium

Silver Crusade

ciretose wrote:
The baby can, and did, turn people to stone with it's gaze.

The baby has eyes that can be covered.

With a hand.

Does the party have one of those? Wonder if they could be bothered. To cover a baby's eyes with a hand.

Silver Crusade

ruemere wrote:

To those who equate application of alcohol with date rape - kindly remind your prospective partners not to invite you to romantic supper.

There's a big damn difference between two parties consentually starting in on the drink who are both aware of where it may go and someone taking advantage of someone whose judgment is impaired or unconscious.

Silver Crusade

Viktyr Korimir wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
They're alos not heartless, racist, absolutist butchers.
It would seem to me that the reason racism is wrong is that the supposed physical and mental differences between the races are unfounded. This is clearly not the case in Pathfinder, in which those differences are both very real and potentially very deadly.

Racism is wrong because you're reducing people to things or less-than-people.

Silver Crusade

Keith Taschner wrote:

For Mikaze (and others who like the non-evil medusa argument and the dealing with medusa issue), I would recommend looking at "The Queen of Stone" book by Keith Baker. It is set in Eberron, and is the first in the Thorn of Breland series. If you are familiar with Eberron, the plot is:

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks, I'll try to check it out soon. Ditching Always Chaotic Evil was actually my favorite thing about Eberron, though I never really got to play in it.


Mikaze wrote:
ciretose wrote:
The baby can, and did, turn people to stone with it's gaze.

The baby has eyes that can be covered.

With a hand.

Does the party have one of those? Wonder if they could be bothered. To cover a baby's eyes with a hand.

Unfortunately, no. That doesn't fit under good action economy and is therefore impossible.

Silver Crusade

Hippygriff wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
ciretose wrote:
The baby can, and did, turn people to stone with it's gaze.

The baby has eyes that can be covered.

With a hand.

Does the party have one of those? Wonder if they could be bothered. To cover a baby's eyes with a hand.

Unfortunately, no. That doesn't fit under good action economy and is therefore impossible.

Oh yeah, it would be inconvenient.

Or worse, require heroics.

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

Liberty's Edge

Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

Thread Godwined...

When you are comparing killing a medusa to a pogram and suggesting an interplanar daycare for way wayward spawn of evil creatures...

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

So in your utopia who raises all of the orphan monsters and polices the creatures that can o so easily kill? Who runs (and funds) the prisons to house the incoporial, teleporting and insanely dangerous?

How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

Is summon celestial nanny on the spell list?

Do the gods (you know exemplars of good and all) send them to follow the party?


ciretose wrote:
Hippygriff wrote:


No? It's based on she's seriously injured and she wants to survive, neither of which require her to be good or neutral. It was in her best interest to get them to accept her surrender no matter what her alignment was.

Let's be clear on what I've been saying, would granting her mercy be the right thing to do? Not necessarily. Kill her without thinking? No. The right thing was for the group to stop for a moment to decide what to do. Frankly there's a lot of information we don't have and we don't know what the players did know. And granting or denying mercy should be a group decision, not just one player's decision.

Should.

And if wishes were fishes we would all eat well.

The Monk made an executive decision

When neither needed, nor called for. He could easily have subdued her and talked it over later. It was an willful chaotic (flip of a coin, and before you pull the "player did, not character", can you on ANY level defend the train of thought leading to that decision?), selfish (to vent his own frustration), and cruel (attacking a non-combatant pleading for mercy) action.

Quote:


"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

Yeah, and in real life, I take children away from drug-abusing mothers that neglect their crack-children in favor of their next high, while in PF I could cast remove disease to cure their addiction.

You can quote all the movies you want. They have no root in a world where faerie dragons breaths euphoric rainbows. In a game where angels and demons fight, and your soul is colored by every action until Pharasma thinks you deserve a place one one side or the other in an afterlife, you better think long and hard before you "justify" evil. Evil is not a necessity in PF, it is an insidious claw that drags you down and taints everything you are. And it is so very very easy to follow that path. Without those absolutes, alignment fails, and should be removed to make a completely different game, with a completely different cosmology, where celestials can be flawed with temptation and sin, demons can have pity and compassion, and nothing is true but power.

Not to mention, in real life, anyone with a gun can kill you dead in a moment's hesitation. That is why you GET to claim war as justification for killing someone, and even then it is under close scrutiny. In PF, a lv1 warrior CANNOT hurt a lv10 fighter in a manner serious enough to warrant lethal response as "self-defense". Just like a martial arts master can be tried for "defending himself" against a drunk with severely impaired motor-skills, when the drunk ends up with 6 broken bones, a concussion, ruptured spleen, and the loss of five teeth.

Anyway, had the monk only gone SUBDUAL, something that does not impair his ability to render his target non-threatening at all, he would be out of this morality issue. It dealt with a potential threat, and would be unpleasant for the victim, but an understandable measure to protect himself and his allies. Then they could have blindfolded her, cut her snake-hair, and talked to her. Likely, one of the PCs has some sense motive, or a scroll with discern lies/detect thoughts or whatever. And then inform her that if she resists the spell, they will take it as a sign of aggression and have to kill her. Now you can learn all you need to learn, and make an informed decision on what to do with the innocent victim that just happened to be born "the wrong race".

This is the GOOD approach. It takes effort, and is a potential risk. But it leads to a cleaner soul and you lessen the chance to find yourself squatting in a pit of fire being poked by imps that find your baffled stare hilarious.

Silver Crusade

ciretose wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

Thread Godwined...

When you are comparing killing a medusa to a pogram and suggesting an interplanar daycare for way wayward spawn of evil creatures...

Hey, if you want your heroes committing genocide, learn to deal with it being called out.

FYI, pogroms have been called out explicitly in the Campaign Setting. Deal.


Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

Good idea, in theory. But you'd have to consider planehopping yahoos, er, adventurers accidently popping into your orphanage and reacting to the "threat" to random innocent villagers everywhere.

Nowhere is really safe from bloodthirsty players…

Silver Crusade

Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

So in your utopia who raises all of the orphan monsters and polices the creatures that can o so easily kill? Who runs (and funds) the prisons to house the incoporial, teleporting and insanely dangerous?

Good aligned beings capable of dealing with it. Because they're good.

It's not rocket surgery.

Quote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?

Where did I say nothing deserves death?

They stab them when they have to, be it a dragon on a hateful destructive rampage or a racist elf about to murder helpless orc babies. Swords work pretty well on those. Arrows and magic too. Sometimes even a fist.

You might want to look under the Equipment section of the Core Rules. There are a lot of options listed there.

Silver Crusade

Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

Is summon celestial nanny on the spell list?

Do the gods (you know exemplars of good and all) send them to follow the party?

No, but summoned beings made of goodness tend to take an interest in making sure the innocent are cared for.

GO FIGURE.

As for the gods...well, considering that none of the gods that endorse genocide are good in any setting I run...they tend to not be stingy on the level appropriate help if asked.

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

So in your utopia who raises all of the orphan monsters and polices the creatures that can o so easily kill? Who runs (and funds) the prisons to house the incoporial, teleporting and insanely dangerous?

Good aligned beings capable of dealing with it. Because they're good.

It's not rocket surgery.

Quote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?

Where did I say nothing deserves death?

They stab them when they have to, be it a dragon on a hateful destructive rampage or a racist elf about to murder helpless orc babies. Swords work pretty well on those. Arrows and magic too. Sometimes even a fist.

You might want to look under the Equipment section of the Core Rules. There are a lot of options listed there.

What good aligned beings, how are they capable? Other than to foster your idea of right, WHAT can house such creatures and at what cost?

What, don't they deserve to be redeemed?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Andrew R wrote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?

How does Sarenrae redeem beings when the only answer is to slay them all the second you see them?


What every party needs is a paladin or an ample supply of "Detect Evil".

That way behavior does not enter into it. The Medusa would have been hacked up with no alignment issues.
You just use the old paladin adage:

Detect Evil
Smite Evil
Rinse & Repeat

:)

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
What plane are the azatas on? I'm thinking about setting up a daycare there...

Hell, that's a solid idea. At the very least it would get the kids out of reach of the pogrom-happy player races.

In before someone suggests that entities based on the very concepts of good, redemption, mercy, etc. with all the resources of the Upper Planes would still go "Ew evil! Kill it!"

Is summon celestial nanny on the spell list?

Do the gods (you know exemplars of good and all) send them to follow the party?

No, but summoned beings made of goodness tend to take an interest in making sure the innocent are cared for.

GO FIGURE.

As for the gods...well, considering that none of the gods that endorse genocide are good in any setting I run...they tend to not be stingy on the level appropriate help if asked.

So your morality works in a word that you can say "gods, take this infant so it is safe" and a host of celestials whisk it away. What about most game worlds where you have to do things by hand?

The Exchange

Hippygriff wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?
How does Sarenrae redeem beings when the only answer is to slay them all the second you see them?

Does it ever say that she expects her followers to redeem everything? If so why is it NEVER mentioned in the books of any of her worshipers having racially diverse cities with every form of creature living in harmony? Ever ONCE mention "monster" races living among them or serving in her temples?

Silver Crusade

Andrew R wrote:
What good aligned beings, how are they capable?

Look under Azata, Angel, Agathion, and Archon. Also some select fey. Now apply imagination and logistics.

Quote:
Other than to foster your idea of right, WHAT can house such creatures and at what cost?

Any the PCs set their Big Damn Heroic minds to. And if they don't have the resources, someone else will.

Quote:
What, don't they deserve to be redeemed?

If possible, just like an orc or a traumatized medusa begging for mercy.

But since the dragon is tearing ass across villages and the elf is about to MURDER CHILDREN, lethal force is acceptable unless they have some super effective restraining magic that's guaranteed to take them down before they do any further harm.

The Exchange

Type2Demon wrote:

What every party needs is a paladin or an ample supply of "Detect Evil".

That way behavior does not enter into it. The Medusa would have been hacked up with no alignment issues.
You just use the old paladin adage:

Detect Evil
Smite Evil
Rinse & Repeat

:)

To so many evil only means misunderstood and needs a hug. Not it's fault what it did until it surrenders.....

Silver Crusade

Andrew R wrote:
So your morality works in a word that you can say "gods, take this infant so it is safe" and a host of celestials whisk it away. What about most game worlds where you have to do things by hand?

No, it also works in worlds where that option isn't available.

It just requires the good-aligned HEROES to do some extra work.

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
What good aligned beings, how are they capable?

Look under Azata, Angel, Agathion, and Archon. Also some select fey. Now apply imagination and logistics.

Quote:
Other than to foster your idea of right, WHAT can house such creatures and at what cost?

Any the PCs set their Big Damn Heroic minds to. And if they don't have the resources, someone else will.

Quote:
What, don't they deserve to be redeemed?

If possible, just like an orc or a traumatized medusa begging for mercy.

But since the dragon is tearing ass across villages and the elf is about to MURDER CHILDREN, lethal force is acceptable unless they have some super effective restraining magic that's guaranteed to take them down before they do any further harm.

So the angels run a otherworld alcatraz/daycare that will come and get your surrender/ innocent deathdealer on any call. COOL.

SOMEONE can afford to house and secure them all. Heard that before in reality, working good in my state. Of course that may involve taxing the peasents to death.....
Merciful weapons and metamagic, tripping and grappling, killing is always a choice in a world of such infinate resources....

Silver Crusade

Andrew R wrote:
Hippygriff wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?
How does Sarenrae redeem beings when the only answer is to slay them all the second you see them?
Does it ever say that she expects her followers to redeem everything? If so why is it NEVER mentioned in the books of any of her worshipers having racially diverse cities with every form of creature living in harmony? Ever ONCE mention "monster" races living among them or serving in her temples?

Sarenrae doesn't play racial favorites.

And if the absolutist and amoral Hellknights have an honorary neutral-aligned goblin member, you can bet your ass Sarenrae, idealism and morality to spare, has more than her share.

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
So your morality works in a word that you can say "gods, take this infant so it is safe" and a host of celestials whisk it away. What about most game worlds where you have to do things by hand?

No, it also works in worlds where that option isn't available.

It just requires the good-aligned HEROES to do some extra work.

First major fight, several orcs surrender, march them out, build a jail and work it until they are redeemed then do it again. Awesome adventuring.

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Hippygriff wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?
How does Sarenrae redeem beings when the only answer is to slay them all the second you see them?
Does it ever say that she expects her followers to redeem everything? If so why is it NEVER mentioned in the books of any of her worshipers having racially diverse cities with every form of creature living in harmony? Ever ONCE mention "monster" races living among them or serving in her temples?

Sarenrae doesn't play racial favorites.

And if the absolutist and amoral Hellknights have an honorary neutral-aligned goblin member, you can bet your ass Sarenrae, idealism and morality to spare, has more than her share.

Yet is such a diverse society ever mentioned in the worldbook? Of such creatures an open and invited part of society?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Andrew R wrote:

So the angels run a otherworld alcatraz/daycare that will come and get your surrender/ innocent deathdealer on any call. COOL.

SOMEONE can afford to house and secure them all. Heard that before in reality, working good in my state. Of course that may involve taxing the peasents to death.....
Merciful weapons and metamagic, tripping and grappling, killing is always a choice in a world of such infinate resources....

Why I do believe we have some apples and oranges up in this piece.

You know Andrew, if you're so hard on for games where you can freely commit genocide and call it good, go ahead.

Stop getting defensive and butthurt because some of use find it to be an unsettling or repulsive game.

Liberty's Edge

Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
So your morality works in a word that you can say "gods, take this infant so it is safe" and a host of celestials whisk it away. What about most game worlds where you have to do things by hand?

No, it also works in worlds where that option isn't available.

It just requires the good-aligned HEROES to do some extra work.

First major fight, several orcs surrender, march them out, build a jail and work it until they are redeemed then do it again. Awesome adventuring.

It will be when they escape, or more come to free them...

Orc Gitmo FTW!


Andrew R wrote:
Does it ever say that she expects her followers to redeem everything?

I had this argument with someone before… Oh, right, it was with you.

Andrew R wrote:
If so why is it NEVER mentioned in the books of any of her worshipers having racially diverse cities with every form of creature living in harmony? Ever ONCE mention "monster" races living among them or serving in her temples?

Not having every pathfinder book I have no basis to comment either way whether this is true or not, but given all the posts in this topic wouldn't you be trying to keep your candidates for redemption away from wandering adventurers? I would.

Silver Crusade

Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Hippygriff wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?
How does Sarenrae redeem beings when the only answer is to slay them all the second you see them?
Does it ever say that she expects her followers to redeem everything? If so why is it NEVER mentioned in the books of any of her worshipers having racially diverse cities with every form of creature living in harmony? Ever ONCE mention "monster" races living among them or serving in her temples?

Sarenrae doesn't play racial favorites.

And if the absolutist and amoral Hellknights have an honorary neutral-aligned goblin member, you can bet your ass Sarenrae, idealism and morality to spare, has more than her share.

Yet is such a diverse society ever mentioned in the worldbook? Of such creatures an open and invited part of society?

Lawful Neutral Molthrune for starters.

Kaer Maga welcomes everyone.

Any city with a population percentage set to "Other" is open to it.

Katapesh, with Sarenrae worshippers aplenty, is noted as being a place where outcast monstrous races can fit in.

Shall I go on?


ciretose wrote:
Hippygriff wrote:
Convention of people with deadly peanut allergies aside, Mr. Peanut is evil and must be stopped. Why? He's actively engaged in selling his own kind as food to another species!

Mr. Peanut, Chaotic Evil.

Wouldnt he be lawful evil? After all, he is working within the established system to market his brethren.

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:

So the angels run a otherworld alcatraz/daycare that will come and get your surrender/ innocent deathdealer on any call. COOL.

SOMEONE can afford to house and secure them all. Heard that before in reality, working good in my state. Of course that may involve taxing the peasents to death.....
Merciful weapons and metamagic, tripping and grappling, killing is always a choice in a world of such infinate resources....

Why I do believe we have some apples and oranges up in this piece.

You know Andrew, if you're so hard on for games where you can freely commit genocide and call it good, go ahead.

Stop getting defensive and butthurt because some of use find it to be an unsettling or repulsive game.

Some of us like a game that is not a constant and often unrealistic idea of morality crammed into everything. You kill threats when you must, murders can swing and the innocent are protected without some divine agency of the DM making it all go away after you make the "right" choice. So many talk about moral choices but from what i have read so few of them really are. The paladin must die before doing anything not nice, throw yourself on every sword and every monster just really needs a hug. Good is retarded and only makes it past level one by DM fait. I am tired of epic fantasy being turned into the damned carebears. Throw away good and evil or donot have such an absurd standard for good and you might actually get some moral complication and real humanity in it.

Silver Crusade

ciretose wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
So your morality works in a word that you can say "gods, take this infant so it is safe" and a host of celestials whisk it away. What about most game worlds where you have to do things by hand?

No, it also works in worlds where that option isn't available.

It just requires the good-aligned HEROES to do some extra work.

First major fight, several orcs surrender, march them out, build a jail and work it until they are redeemed then do it again. Awesome adventuring.

It will be when they escape, or more come to free them...

Orc Gitmo FTW!

Shall I draw a comparison to another prison that aligns more closely with your preferred game?

You may have heard of it.

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Hippygriff wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
How do your Pcs handle threats since nothing deserves death?
How does Sarenrae redeem beings when the only answer is to slay them all the second you see them?
Does it ever say that she expects her followers to redeem everything? If so why is it NEVER mentioned in the books of any of her worshipers having racially diverse cities with every form of creature living in harmony? Ever ONCE mention "monster" races living among them or serving in her temples?

Sarenrae doesn't play racial favorites.

And if the absolutist and amoral Hellknights have an honorary neutral-aligned goblin member, you can bet your ass Sarenrae, idealism and morality to spare, has more than her share.

Yet is such a diverse society ever mentioned in the worldbook? Of such creatures an open and invited part of society?

Lawful Neutral Molthrune for starters.

Kaer Maga welcomes everyone.

Any city with a population percentage set to "Other" is open to it.

Katapesh, with Sarenrae worshippers aplenty, is noted as being a place where outcast monstrous races can fit in.

Shall I go on?

Other means they are there, population stats do not say if they are living in the sewers or undercover. How many explicitly say that all monster are welcome?

The Exchange

Mikaze wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:
So your morality works in a word that you can say "gods, take this infant so it is safe" and a host of celestials whisk it away. What about most game worlds where you have to do things by hand?

No, it also works in worlds where that option isn't available.

It just requires the good-aligned HEROES to do some extra work.

First major fight, several orcs surrender, march them out, build a jail and work it until they are redeemed then do it again. Awesome adventuring.

It will be when they escape, or more come to free them...

Orc Gitmo FTW!

Shall I draw a comparison to another prison that aligns more closely with your preferred game?

You may have heard of it.

My games tend to feature the heroes slaying the dragon killing the people, not giving it a stern talking to about being a nice neighbor and hoping it doesn't take a second pass at the peasant buffet.

Silver Crusade

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Andrew R wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
Andrew R wrote:

So the angels run a otherworld alcatraz/daycare that will come and get your surrender/ innocent deathdealer on any call. COOL.

SOMEONE can afford to house and secure them all. Heard that before in reality, working good in my state. Of course that may involve taxing the peasents to death.....
Merciful weapons and metamagic, tripping and grappling, killing is always a choice in a world of such infinate resources....

Why I do believe we have some apples and oranges up in this piece.

You know Andrew, if you're so hard on for games where you can freely commit genocide and call it good, go ahead.

Stop getting defensive and butthurt because some of use find it to be an unsettling or repulsive game.

Some of us like a game that is not a constant and often unrealistic idea of morality crammed into everything. You kill threats when you must, murders can swing and the innocent are protected without some divine agency of the DM making it all go away after you make the "right" choice. So many talk about moral choices but from what i have read so few of them really are. The paladin must die before doing anything not nice, throw yourself on every sword and every monster just really needs a hug. Good is retarded and only makes it past level one by DM fait. I am tired of epic fantasy being turned into the damned carebears. Throw away good and evil or donot have such an absurd standard for good and you might actually get some moral complication and real humanity in it.

Except here's the thing.

My players, and I when I get to play, don't need that constant divine agency to get our backs when we play idealistic characters. We enjoy playing Big Damn Heroes that sometimes have to kill, but try not to. Characters that don't just go "it's a monster, kill it". And we @#$%ing work for it, because good isn't what's convenient.

We also don't have GMs trying to screw over the players. That helps.

But for some reason that really chaps your ass and you have to constantly needle others about "WELL HOW DO YOU MAKE THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THIS WORK HURF DURF".

We like to play our good as actually good. Not a collection of tags for who is and is not alright to murder out of hand.

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