Power Attack with Double Weapon


Rules Questions


If i power attack with a 2 handed weapon that is Double how does that work?

Do i get the bonus because its 2 handed or not?

I asked my group and they say no not if im attacking twice. Im asking for verification and to satisfy my curiosity. Though i do have faith in what my Group has said.

Im using a Double Orc Axe.

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Munkir wrote:

If i power attack with a 2 handed weapon that is Double how does that work?

Do i get the bonus because its 2 handed or not?

I asked my group and they say no not if im attacking twice. Im asking for verification and to satisfy my curiosity. Though i do have faith in what my Group has said.

Im using a Double Orc Axe.

The awesome thing about double weapons is that, unless you're actually making multiple attacks via Two-Weapon Fighting with them, they're considered 2-handed weapons.

However, if you ARE making your multiple attacks, then the weapon is treated as two one-handed weapons just as if you were wielding separate weapons.

Now, you can CHOOSE to only fight with one end of the weapon and treat it as a two-handed weapon if you have iterative attacks. A character with a BAB of +6/+1 and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting can either make two attacks (+6/+1) and treat his weapon as a 2-hander, or he can make 4 attacks (+4/+4/-1/-1) and treat them as one-handed.


Ninja'ed

+1 to Fatespinner. That's correct


Minor, tiniest nitpick. If you TWF your weapon is treated as one-handed for your primary attacks (1xSTR) and light for your off-hand attacks (1/2xSTR)

Other than that (minor as it is) everything Fatespinner said is 100% correct.

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Quantum Steve wrote:

Minor, tiniest nitpick. If you TWF your weapon is treated as one-handed for your primary attacks (1xSTR) and light for your off-hand attacks (1/2xSTR)

Other than that (minor as it is) everything Fatespinner said is 100% correct.

Actually, ALL off-hand weapons deal 1/2xSTR modifier for damage, whether they are one-handed or light, unless you have the Double Slice feat.

But for the purposes of TWF penalties, the off-hand is considered light on a double weapon, yes. The attack bonuses I outlined in my example illustrate that fact (the TWF attacks are penalized -2/-2 instead of -4/-4).

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The only place that this gets odd is with monks and quarterstaves.

When the flurry with it, they get 1x str damage on all hits, even if they are only using one side of it. After reading it all, I would consider it as a one-handed weapon for power attack and the like, but I don't consider it too game breaking to allow it to act as a two handed. After all, there are not too many weapons that a monk can flurry with that are two-handed, and they all do fairly low damage by themselves.


the problem with your monk examples is. a there was already a silly long thread on wether they'd get 2h power attack which is best avoided, but also b the benefits for 2h power attack etc would add up quicky. flat static damage is usually better than random rolled damage. if your suggestion were allowed my temple sword wielding monk would never not use PA or 2 hands. it would add about 25 damage a round being able to do so.

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Mojorat wrote:
the problem with your monk examples is. a there was already a silly long thread on wether they'd get 2h power attack which is best avoided, but also b the benefits for 2h power attack etc would add up quicky. flat static damage is usually better than random rolled damage. if your suggestion were allowed my temple sword wielding monk would never not use PA or 2 hands. it would add about 25 damage a round being able to do so.

I did state:

"After reading it all, I would consider it as a one-handed weapon for power attack and the like..."

edited to correct error.


Fatespinner wrote:
Munkir wrote:

If i power attack with a 2 handed weapon that is Double how does that work?

Do i get the bonus because its 2 handed or not?

I asked my group and they say no not if im attacking twice. Im asking for verification and to satisfy my curiosity. Though i do have faith in what my Group has said.

Im using a Double Orc Axe.

The awesome thing about double weapons is that, unless you're actually making multiple attacks via Two-Weapon Fighting with them, they're considered 2-handed weapons.

However, if you ARE making your multiple attacks, then the weapon is treated as two one-handed weapons just as if you were wielding separate weapons.

Now, you can CHOOSE to only fight with one end of the weapon and treat it as a two-handed weapon if you have iterative attacks. A character with a BAB of +6/+1 and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting can either make two attacks (+6/+1) and treat his weapon as a 2-hander, or he can make 4 attacks (+4/+4/-1/-1) and treat them as one-handed.

Where in the rules does it say this because i would like to read i belive you but it would be useful if anyone disagrees with me to know where its at because im 5th lvl Barb that turns 6th this friday and my BaB is going to be (+6/+1)

Thank you Fatespinner and eveyone else who posted


Munkir wrote:
Fatespinner wrote:
Munkir wrote:

If i power attack with a 2 handed weapon that is Double how does that work?

Do i get the bonus because its 2 handed or not?

I asked my group and they say no not if im attacking twice. Im asking for verification and to satisfy my curiosity. Though i do have faith in what my Group has said.

Im using a Double Orc Axe.

The awesome thing about double weapons is that, unless you're actually making multiple attacks via Two-Weapon Fighting with them, they're considered 2-handed weapons.

However, if you ARE making your multiple attacks, then the weapon is treated as two one-handed weapons just as if you were wielding separate weapons.

Now, you can CHOOSE to only fight with one end of the weapon and treat it as a two-handed weapon if you have iterative attacks. A character with a BAB of +6/+1 and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting can either make two attacks (+6/+1) and treat his weapon as a 2-hander, or he can make 4 attacks (+4/+4/-1/-1) and treat them as one-handed.

Where in the rules does it say this because i would like to read i belive you but it would be useful if anyone disagrees with me to know where its at because im 5th lvl Barb that turns 6th this friday and my BaB is going to be (+6/+1)

Thank you Fatespinner and eveyone else who posted

It's under the equipment section. Says it 1 handed weapon but since you are using it with 2 hands you get 1 1/2 strength bonus. Here's the text from the PRD:

"Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A double weapon can be wielded as a one-handed weapon, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."


It's under the equipment section. Says it 1 handed weapon but since you are using it with 2 hands you get 1 1/2 strength bonus. Here's the text from the PRD:

"Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A double weapon can be wielded as a one-handed weapon, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

Ok so i can use it like this

BAB (6/1)

6 with two weapon fighting gives me 2 attacks with first end of weapon

1 with two weapon fighting gives me 2 attacks with secnond end of weapon

but when i read
A double weapon can be wielded as a one-handed weapon, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

it makes me think i can only get two attacks off with this weapon at any given round.


That's from PCR pp.144-145. If you look at PCR p.141:

Quote:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon -- only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

And then at p. 202:

Quote:
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand

emphasis added and etc.

So. You can use one end of a double weapon as a normal two-handed weapon, +6/+1 with 1+1/2 str bonus. Or, you can use one end as a one-handed weapon, +6/+1 with a normal str bonus and the other hand available for something else. Or, you can use it like having a second weapon in the off hand, and (assuming Two-Weapon Fighting) get +4/-1 with one end and +4 with the other.


I just wanted to re-iterate that two-weapon fighting, which is what a double weapon works like, only gives you one extra attack per round. It is not two attacks per attack per round from BAB.

Think of each attack as a completely individual decision. The spirit of a double is to give TWF via a weapon, so just think of it that way. If you ever use it as a non-double weapon with 2 hands, you cannot use double for the whole round. That is what "only one end may be used in any given round" means. It means either attack with it as a double (TWF) or a 2h weapon.

Fighter 6 BAB (no feats for atk rolls)
+6/+1
Note: You must take attacks in the order of highest to lowest BAB

==Full-round two weapon attack==
First attack:
Attack without double properties.
6 BAB
+4 roll (-2 twf), +1x str dmg

Second attack:
Attack with double properties
Offhand is treated as light for -2/-2 with TWF
TWF subtracts from the BAB you are using to attack with.
1 BAB
Main: -1 roll, +1x str dmg
Offhand: -1 roll, +0.5 str dmg

==Full-round two weapon attack==
First attack:
With double properties
6 BAB
Main: +4 roll, +1x str dmg
Offhand: +4 roll, +0.5 str dmg

Second attack:
Without double properties
1 BAB
-1 roll, +1x str dmg

(obviously, very rarely, would you ever TWF the 2nd atk. remember you can move inbetween attacks so if you plan on moving to atk a wizard 2nd then you'd TWF the 2nd atk so the wizard gets hit twice)

==Full-round two handed attack==
First attack:
Wielding one end in two hands
6 BAB
+6 roll, +1.5x str dmg

Second attack:
1 BAB
+1 roll, +1.5x str dmg

Wield in two hands when damage means more (+3x str)
Wield as a double when more hits matter (frost, flaming, crits)

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