DM... thinking of throwing in the towel.


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Dark Archive

Hope this is the correct place to post.

I have a great group of friends (all older people) who I enjoy RP with over the last 5 years. Group size varies from Core 5 to up to 9 players. We play many different type of RPG's. I DM and we swith off at at even rate so you get play time as well as running time.

Heres the problem and hopefully some advice. The gaming table has become crazy... Stopping combat to look up rules / cross table talk so those that are RPing can't even hear at times / not following the game / reading books / looking up spells on their turn ( i mean they had 10 minutes to do that during others guys turns) and just plain signs of boredom. Simple encounters takes an hour while one major encounter went almost 5 hours due to the confusion at the table. Its taking all the fun out of DMing.

Fixes i tried:
- No books / computers / phones at the table (works sorta but hard to enforce with out being a Drill SGT. about it every 10 minutes).
- Went with simplier games, easy on the rules... no dice.
- Rules where if you don;t know how an ability of yours works you can;t use it.

I tried a few other fixes... - I tried talking to them about it and they all agree its a problem but it still continues.

I love to DM with them but even playing is not as much fun anymore. Not sure how i can correct this without hurint a lot of feeling as we do other things outside of gaming.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks

Dark Archive

WhipShire wrote:

Hope this is the correct place to post.

I have a great group of friends (all older people) who I enjoy RP with over the last 5 years. Group size varies from Core 5 to up to 9 players. We play many different type of RPG's. I DM and we swith off at at even rate so you get play time as well as running time.

Heres the problem and hopefully some advice. The gaming table has become crazy... Stopping combat to look up rules / cross table talk so those that are RPing can't even hear at times / not following the game / reading books / looking up spells on their turn ( i mean they had 10 minutes to do that during others guys turns) and just plain signs of boredom. Simple encounters takes an hour while one major encounter went almost 5 hours due to the confusion at the table. Its taking all the fun out of DMing.

Fixes i tried:
- No books / computers / phones at the table (works sorta but hard to enforce with out being a Drill SGT. about it every 10 minutes).
- Went with simplier games, easy on the rules... no dice.
- Rules where if you don;t know how an ability of yours works you can;t use it.

I tried a few other fixes... - I tried talking to them about it and they all agree its a problem but it still continues.

I love to DM with them but even playing is not as much fun anymore. Not sure how i can correct this without hurint a lot of feeling as we do other things outside of gaming.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks

Take a break. Try non-rpg games for a while (i.e., board games, card games, etc). Break into two groups with each one playing different rpgs. Bring in some new blood.

Dark Archive

That makes sense... i just wondering if others face the same issues. Not RP with alot of other adult groups... most my RP experience was before college. You think if we all agree we could come up with a solution without slapping our wrist like back in grade school again... lol


This sounds a lot like the group I've been playing in.

It's absolutely no fun at all ... for anyone.

I agree that taking a break from the game may be helpful, but I don't think anything would change, if you chose to go back to it.

What I've done is create a smaller group to play on a different day in the hopes of creating better gaming habits amongst them. I've broken the norm a bit, and I explain a lot more about the game, how it works, and I'm making a huge effort toward building DM trust.

Hopefully, if we all get together as a whole group again, this will help.

Another thing you may consider, since you have such a large group, is having someone co-DM with you. Someone who can take up the reins a bit and keep things more focused on the game. Your co-DM, or even a third player, could play the monsters in combat and even generate monster race NPCs during the off-time.

DM'ing, in my experiences, can be a great team effort, and it could possibly help bring some focus back to the game.


Joela has hit it on the the head. Take a Break. Grab some fun card games or make a RISK tournament night. Or what ever you guys can agree on. Heck, maybe even try a night of LARPing. For my group, we did a few weeks of win lose or draw.

Then we picked a totally different game system from the norm, and did weekly rotation GMing. Same characters, different GM each night.

But really, it is what ever works for your peeps. If you notice it, than others do as well. And playing without enjoyment, that just has a whole other series of problems.

Greg

Dark Archive

CO-DM nice... never thought of that. I think some of the boredom comes from a focus scene with 1 or 2 players whiles the others stand around and watch the Paladin Diplomancy the NPC... CO - DM could keep the others busy. I like that.

Dark Archive

Great ideas guys... same characters in a game but rotating the DM. good stuff... i like that.


I've enforced table rules and those who can't cope, end up not playing. I haven't had too much trouble with it, and I don't think I actually lost any players because of my table rules.

Some of the table rules I have:

* If you want to use a rule, such as for bull rush, for example, it is your responsibility to look it up in the book, before your turn.

* On your turn, I give a quick tactical description of the current situation and will answer questions, but otherwise you only have a limited amount of time to make your move. I have a little hourglass sealed in a tube of water, and after giving the tactical description I turn it over. The player is expected to start describing her action by the time the timer reaches the top.

* During combat or role playing, crosstalk is not allowed. Players should be concentrating on the game.

* The DM makes a decision. I give myself a few minutes to figure out the rule, but if I can't find it or remember it in that time, then I just make up something reasonable. We can look it up later, but we'd rather have the DM make a wrong ruling fast, than take a long time to figure out the ruling "by the book".

* I try doing things to speed up the flow. Some tricks: rolling attack and damage dice at the same time; rolling all attacks at the same time, using different colored dice; having the combatants written on index cards sorted in order of initiative; handing the players sheets on which the rules for their character abilities are written for easy reference.

I've also made a few house rules to move things along a little faster. One of them is a little bit complicated, involving something I call an "extended charge", but it's happened a couple of times, and the purpose is to allow PCs to charge without forcing the player to count squares and reconsider her move if the enemy is a little bit too far away for a normal charge.

Dark Archive

WhipShire wrote:
CO-DM nice... never thought of that. I think some of the boredom comes from a focus scene with 1 or 2 players whiles the others stand around and watch the Paladin Diplomancy the NPC... CO - DM could keep the others busy. I like that.

THAT will definitely do that. I always try to focus on every PC and their player every few minutes, even in RPing. If I can't, then, yeah, ask the others what their PCs are doin', then dismiss them from the table to focus on the other, more involved, scene. Try to minimize that, though.

Dark Archive

Utgardloki wrote:

I've enforced table rules and those who can't cope, end up not playing. I haven't had too much trouble with it, and I don't think I actually lost any players because of my table rules.

Some of the table rules I have:

* If you want to use a rule, such as for bull rush, for example, it is your responsibility to look it up in the book, before your turn.

* On your turn, I give a quick tactical description of the current situation and will answer questions, but otherwise you only have a limited amount of time to make your move. I have a little hourglass sealed in a tube of water, and after giving the tactical description I turn it over. The player is expected to start describing her action by the time the timer reaches the top.

* During combat or role playing, crosstalk is not allowed. Players should be concentrating on the game.

* The DM makes a decision. I give myself a few minutes to figure out the rule, but if I can't find it or remember it in that time, then I just make up something reasonable. We can look it up later, but we'd rather have the DM make a wrong ruling fast, than take a long time to figure out the ruling "by the book".

* I try doing things to speed up the flow. Some tricks: rolling attack and damage dice at the same time; rolling all attacks at the same time, using different colored dice; having the combatants written on index cards sorted in order of initiative; handing the players sheets on which the rules for their character abilities are written for easy reference.

I've also made a few house rules to move things along a little faster. One of them is a little bit complicated, involving something I call an "extended charge", but it's happened a couple of times, and the purpose is to allow PCs to charge without forcing the player to count squares and reconsider her move if the enemy is a little bit too far away for a normal charge.

What Utgardloki said. Here's a trick I'm hoping to attempt soon: I'm going to have the players roll my dice for me, right on the table. I won't tell what the modifiers are, of course, but it'll be interesting to see everyone's concentration when they know they'll be rolling the "to hit" and damage against the other gamers (especially the "lucky" rollers heheh....)

The Exchange

Our group can fall into that type of thing if we're not careful. And all of us try to avoid it. The main occasions it happens I believe is purely down to group size. If everyone is there then we have 7 players plus the GM. Which that many people, multiple conversations can easily crop up.

My advice, encourage people to be more vigilant. I can't imagine you are the only one at the table that feels this way. I normally find the harder combats where there is potential for character death focuses people more. Easy fights where it's going through the motions cause more problems.

However, what we did was have a smaller game during the week as well. Run/play a PFS mod with 4 players or so and turn it into a more casual experience. It takes the edge off the larger games.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

You act like the people you hang around. It is a sad fact, but true. When the majority in a group of people act in a certain way, the minority will quickly start to follow suit. It is hard to admit, but we are influenced by the majority of people we hang around.

I know you may wonder how that knowledge will help you, but think about your group for a moment. YOU are trying to change a group. That is very hard to do. What is really happening is the group has changed you, and you don't like it.

The problem I see is not that your group can't behave itself, it is that it has created a sort of culture that you feel is wrong for your tastes. This culture won't change itself, and one persons efforts will only affect it so far. It takes the group as a committed whole to change that culture. But face it, unless there is a clear motivation or massive need, the culture of the group won't change permanently.

What I would do is find other groups to game with. Make the group you are currently playing with a hang-out group. You go there to be with friends and not really care about the activity. Finding another group to play with on the side will help you find that fun factor you are looking for. An even better idea is to strongly suggest that the others in your current group find other groups to play with as well.

If you go and associate with other, hopefully more serious, groups then you will pick up skills and habits that help you have fun playing the games you like to play no matter where you play them. If everyone in your current group does that, then everyone will be influenced by the other groups and that influence will slowly change your current group.

The reason is simple: The outside groups will change everyone's attitude towards the games and reinforce the change in the group's culture. Your group might stay the hang-out and goof off group but the games will run smoother and you will have fun because everyone will have picked up from the outside proper gaming habits.

Now, you may have noticed what I suggest is a long term solution, but a slow action solution. So if you follow this advice, you will need to follow the advice from all the other commenting here.


WhipShire wrote:

Hope this is the correct place to post.

I have a great group of friends (all older people) who I enjoy RP with over the last 5 years. Group size varies from Core 5 to up to 9 players. We play many different type of RPG's. I DM and we swith off at at even rate so you get play time as well as running time.

Heres the problem and hopefully some advice. The gaming table has become crazy... Stopping combat to look up rules / cross table talk so those that are RPing can't even hear at times / not following the game / reading books / looking up spells on their turn ( i mean they had 10 minutes to do that during others guys turns) and just plain signs of boredom. Simple encounters takes an hour while one major encounter went almost 5 hours due to the confusion at the table. Its taking all the fun out of DMing.

Fixes i tried:
- No books / computers / phones at the table (works sorta but hard to enforce with out being a Drill SGT. about it every 10 minutes).
- Went with simplier games, easy on the rules... no dice.
- Rules where if you don;t know how an ability of yours works you can;t use it.

I tried a few other fixes... - I tried talking to them about it and they all agree its a problem but it still continues.

I love to DM with them but even playing is not as much fun anymore. Not sure how i can correct this without hurint a lot of feeling as we do other things outside of gaming.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks

Some people have a hard time focusing, and it is even harder in a large group.

Stopping combat to look up rules:Is this everyone or just the people that don't know the rules well?
If I was DM'ing and someone was not paying attention I would call them on it. Slamming a book down on the table is a good way to get attention. Them politely ask them to be quiet while you do your DM'ly duties. If it does not stop maybe taking a break is a good idea.

Dark Archive

Utgardloki wrote:

I've enforced table rules and those who can't cope, end up not playing. I haven't had too much trouble with it, and I don't think I actually lost any players because of my table rules.

Some of the table rules I have:

* If you want to use a rule, such as for bull rush, for example, it is your responsibility to look it up in the book, before your turn.

* On your turn, I give a quick tactical description of the current situation and will answer questions, but otherwise you only have a limited amount of time to make your move. I have a little hourglass sealed in a tube of water, and after giving the tactical description I turn it over. The player is expected to start describing her action by the time the timer reaches the top.

* During combat or role playing, crosstalk is not allowed. Players should be concentrating on the game.

* The DM makes a decision. I give myself a few minutes to figure out the rule, but if I can't find it or remember it in that time, then I just make up something reasonable. We can look it up later, but we'd rather have the DM make a wrong ruling fast, than take a long time to figure out the ruling "by the book".

* I try doing things to speed up the flow. Some tricks: rolling attack and damage dice at the same time; rolling all attacks at the same time, using different colored dice; having the combatants written on index cards sorted in order of initiative; handing the players sheets on which the rules for their character abilities are written for easy reference.

I've also made a few house rules to move things along a little faster. One of them is a little bit complicated, involving something I call an "extended charge", but it's happened a couple of times, and the purpose is to allow PCs to charge without forcing the player to count squares and reconsider her move if the enemy is a little bit too far away for a normal charge.

Good stuff to try here... thanks

Dark Archive

I appreciate all the advice. I look forward to trying some of these things out. I figured others had to of run into this kind of situation before and maybe had some answers... Thanks guys.

Grand Lodge

I can feel with you as I seem to have been in a similar situation 2 years ago. Luckily for me it was the same time Pathfinder came out. I liked the system but my group didn't.
I wanted a restart as I felt it was necessary

In a desperate move (at that time) I went outside of my own group. By chance the only available GM who would take me was 1 1/2 hours away. He was doing organised play - Pathfinder Society. Ihad played for 25 years but never outside my home group.

To cut it short - organised play was what helped me. I went out of desperation. Being at heart a GM I volunteered shortly after my first games to help organise early PFS as a CON.

That gave me access to new players, play styles, GM styles, etc. I first introduced only a single person from my old group - my wife. She liked it a lot - especially to be out of the old group. And to my surprise I preferred her play style there a lot compared to what I was used at home.

Half a year later after a bad experience of hers at a CON I even got the rare compliment "you aren't that bad a GM after all". That was after playing for ten years on my table.

It took over half a year to get part of my home group to try PFS. And it was a positive surprise. Under time pressure, with new PCs and forced to work together or fail they did manage.

I had one drop- out along the way. But I also got a few extra players since.

It might not work for you. But if you are not embedded in organised play - give it a go to give you a break from your group. Experience something new and maybe restart that way.

Thod

Grand Lodge

CalebTGordan wrote:

...

The reason is simple: The outside groups will change everyone's attitude towards the games and reinforce the change in the group's culture. Your group might stay the hang-

...
Lots of good stuff
y...

+1

Well said. It describes in other words my own experience.


In part preparation on the part of the GM helps alot, if you prepare an encounter prepare for possible rules and contingencies that might come into play. Also do not stare yourself blind on the mechanics alone, but also on how the encounter will play out. A few encounters that can be quickly dealt with can make the pc's feel good about themselves and draw them in the game as long as the encounters are not vanilla.

Preparation on part of the players can help too, like having a spelldeck with their spells known or commonly memorized ready, even print some significant rules their character uses quite often.

Simplified rules help alot, especially those that speed up play, even if they are not entirely correct, a legion of orcs shooting arrows can be done by having the players make a reflex save for half damage or make a single attack and subtract armor class from damage dealt for example.

Focus on cinematics, tell the story describe what is happening and make the environment come alive to them, at least in my experience it helps to keep people focused, especially the ones that are not up to roll dice quite yet. Try avoiding using monster's names, describe them rather and keep them guessing wether it is actually a fiendish Ogre or something else entirely, you do not want them to convert your monsters and npc's to statblocks in their minds.

Try to think of things you can delegate to players, besides taking some of your burden it keeps them focused on the game. Co-dming is a very good option if they are up for it, even if you do not split the group it is often so much easier to get them to focus on the game.


WhipShire wrote:
I have a great group of friends (all older people) who I enjoy RP with over the last 5 years. Group size varies from Core 5 to up to 9 players.

This is another contributing factor. I generally don't GM games for more than six people without a Co-GM, because the longer people wait to get their questions answered and get their turn, the more likely they are to start distracting themselves. Face it, if you only got to interact with 1/6th or less of even a two-hour gaming session, wouldn't you look for something else to do in the meantime?

As far as people knowing their stuff when it comes to be their turn, I would just say that if they learn a spell, they have to read it at least once (no matter how self-explanatory it sounds). Whenever they write it on their character sheet (even if it's on a wand or magic item), they have to write the page number (and book if you use extra) next to it or it gets lost/forgotten/whatever. That at least speeds up the reference process. Have fighters do the same thing with complex feats and things.

If people aren't knowing their class abilities well, have them go to the library or a computer or something and spend the dimes it will take to print a reference copy from the PRD (has the benefit of the latest errata, too!). Staple this to their sheet, and they can highlight any selections they have made (rogue talents and the like).

If it's combat maneuvers or the bonuses of cover or stuff like that, I believe there's a PDF of condensed combat rules specifically for that. (Found it: SORD for PF. Oddly, not available on Paizo, but RPGNow has it for less than $5.)


An idea that i have used with marginal success is assigning jobs to the players. Provided they have access to enough materials, have a player responsible for looking up all spells (usually the primary spellcaster since they do this for themselves) and have all other players write down the page number of their spells, have another player track initiative for everyone and dictate turn order, have one player track movement on the grid and count squares, have someone track hp and damage, maybe a player responsible for combat maneuvers. All players are responsible for thier own class mechanics. This helps players familiarize themselves with the rules and frees the DM from a lot of bookkeeping that bogs down the game. Let players switch roles from time to time so everyone learns a little something, but over time they will also develop the fundamental DM skills as well as player skills. As long as every player has access to a reference, and you force them to use or create a cheat sheet than time won't take too long. It also keeps players focused since they have something to do during every person's turn. Last bonus, have only one person track ammo, items, smites, bombs and spells. The rate of "I still have one of those left" cheating drops dramatically.

Dark Archive

Their are many good idea here... I will be attempting a few of them. I believe from all the advice... i may take a break from DM'ing to focus on being a better player. maybe a little lead by example and try to help the current DM out by keeping the group game focused.


5-9 people? I think the smaller the better. One of the best games I ever played was with two players, controlling 2 characters each (experienced players, no equipment sharing).

The larger the group, the more likely:

Somebody can't be there

People get bored waiting for their turn

New players make bad moves, get killed, etc., and lose interest in the game.

The first player in initiative order gets a little time to figure out what he's gonna do. He can ask questions, then take his turn. If other players are being pokey, I count to 6. Have your turn planned out (by watching and listening to what's going on), and have your spell, special combat move, etc., ready to go on your turn.

You snooze, you lose (your turn). Paying attention to what other players are doing (even in pure roleplay) is the key to good teamwork.

"Oh, you can do that? Well, I'll do this. Now the cleric can give you a flank..."


Be a flirt- play hard to get. If the players are disengaging from the game, actively trying to push them back into it creates a dynamic where you're the boring teacher trying to get the class to focus on the chalkboard, instead of Billy's awesome new Pokemon game.

Next time that everyone loses focus and starts chattering about other things, hop up, grab a soda and start chattering with them. Declare it a quick break, and if possible leave off at a somewhat suspenseful moment. Then wait for someone else to suggest that the group starts playing again. If other people really do feel as you do, hopefully they will. Then ask around like you're indifferent "are you guys ready yet... do you want to wait a few more minutes?" Don't bother until someone else supplies the momentum, and even then make sure that the group at large is seconds it. If you notice there's one or two people who aren't pushing as hard as the rest and are content to keep chattering about their iphones, then you may have identified a part of the problem. If it isn't an isolated incident, you may try organizing a separate game for the more engaged players, though I admit that if everyone is truly a close personal friend, it may be difficult to tactfully keep the distractors away.


This is one of the reasons that I'm kind of burned out on 3.5 (I don't play pathfinder, but I don't see that the issues are much different). Combat is much slower. I'm going to try to turn my group onto Warriors and Warlocks which is a D20 supplement from Mutants and Masterminds. Very similar to the rules we already know, but streamlined and simplified, but somethings that are different- only one combat action per round no matter what your level. That helps a hell of a lot. I find when there is less focus on tedious rules, there is more focus on story and streamlined combat helps... then there is more energy in the game session. It's something to think about. The bad thing is that there isn't a lot (i.e. any) support for this subsystem, so adventures have to be made from scratch, but it's pretty cool.


WhipShire wrote:

Hope this is the correct place to post.

I have a great group of friends (all older people) who I enjoy RP with over the last 5 years. Group size varies from Core 5 to up to 9 players. We play many different type of RPG's. I DM and we swith off at at even rate so you get play time as well as running time.

Heres the problem and hopefully some advice. The gaming table has become crazy... Stopping combat to look up rules / cross table talk so those that are RPing can't even hear at times / not following the game / reading books / looking up spells on their turn ( i mean they had 10 minutes to do that during others guys turns) and just plain signs of boredom. Simple encounters takes an hour while one major encounter went almost 5 hours due to the confusion at the table. Its taking all the fun out of DMing.

Fixes i tried:
- No books / computers / phones at the table (works sorta but hard to enforce with out being a Drill SGT. about it every 10 minutes).
- Went with simplier games, easy on the rules... no dice.
- Rules where if you don;t know how an ability of yours works you can;t use it.

I tried a few other fixes... - I tried talking to them about it and they all agree its a problem but it still continues.

I love to DM with them but even playing is not as much fun anymore. Not sure how i can correct this without hurint a lot of feeling as we do other things outside of gaming.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks

I've had similar problems. In my case I decided to switch to E6 in my next campaign that way combat will be a lot easier and not as convoluted. I know high level play can really bog down in battle. What level are you currently playing at?

Your group definitely sounds a lot like mine. We just switched to a new game which has helped greatly since combat rounds go very quickly. We still have a tendency to have a lot of OOC talking, but I attribute this to this being the only time most of us get to see each other every week. People want to try and catch up. If this is the case with you, it might be good to try and get together a half an hour early to just hang out a bit before play.

My honest suggestion is as some have said, take a break from RPGs. Take a month off and get together to play board games and card games. Everyone gets a nice break. There are some pretty enjoyable games out there too. I've always been a fan of BANG! and Arkham Horror.

Sovereign Court

Robert Carter 58 wrote:
Combat is much slower.

Slower than what?


WhipShire wrote:
Heres the problem and hopefully some advice. The gaming table has become crazy... Stopping combat to look up rules / cross table talk so those that are RPing can't even hear at times / not following the game / reading books / looking up spells on their turn ( i mean they had 10 minutes to do that during others guys turns) and just plain signs of boredom. Simple encounters takes an hour while one major encounter went almost 5 hours due to the confusion at the table. Its taking all the fun out of DMing.

You're right, that's not fun. I had a lesser version of this years ago.

Here are some things you can do:

1) Run with core rules only. Multiple rule books caused the problem for me, because people were looking up spells/classes in them, often in combat. In general, simplify the game.

2) Players that are slow, unorganized, or can't make decisions quickly, are definitely not allowed to play Wizards and perhaps not even other spellcasters. Too bad.

3) 10 second rule on your turn. If you can't decide what to do on your turn in 10 seconds, you delay and it goes to someone else.

4) Rule 0: Never look up anything during combat, when in doubt go with the DMs ruling and look it up after combat. This should keep things running fast.

5) All table talk is in character. So anything they're saying, their character is also saying.

6) Play in a smaller group. In groups of 6+ players... people get bored, read books, and then slow things down further. I find 5 players per table is best (6 players because someone always can't make it because of real life).

7) I know you already spoke to everyone about it, but talking about it more could help. Mention that playing like this is sucking all of the fun out of the game for you.

8) I assume some of the players are fast and like roleplaying. Talk to them about creating another, SMALLER group (without the slow rules lawyers). You need only really 2-4 players to play D&D, you don't need 9.

9) Being fast as a DM! This means being prepared, maybe having an outline for the night. Speed during combat is more important than keeping perfect records and stats. Being slow as a DM bores everyone and creates all of the habits that you don't like.

10)

Utgardloki wrote:
I try doing things to speed up the flow. Some tricks: rolling attack and damage dice at the same time; rolling all attacks at the same time, using different colored dice; having the combatants written on index cards sorted in order of initiative; handing the players sheets on which the rules for their character abilities are written for easy reference.

There is that too.

11) Keep sessions short, intense, 4-5 hour sessions. One of the problems when I was younger, is that we'd have these marathon sessions from 2pm to 2am, 12 hour sessions. Not only does this take a long time for a DM to prepare, but it's such a long session that people are guaranteed to "phase out" at various points. Have short 5 hour sessions keeps everyone focused, and when the time is up, it's over.

12) Play an AP or a PS scenario, if you're currently home brewing. It takes less time and leads to less DM burnout. Or let someone else DM and kick back yourself.

Some other people have mentioned playing video games, and while it can be fun, it's not the same as RPGing in real life, and if you're really interested in playing RPGs in real life, I'd continue (if you kill it, it maybe never come back). Maybe playing some board games or card games for a month might be a good idea, because you're still getting together but still breaking.


Sounds like GM burnout to me.

Take a break, or switch up the gaming system to something light-weight. GMing is hard and many GMs don't get nearly the credit they deserve from their players. I'm lucky in that, I suppose.

No worries, man, you can always come back to the art when you've had a chance to charge your batteries.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I've seen this happen quite a few times in games I run and in games I play in. The three main causes, as far as I can tell:

1) Group's too large: Once a group gets above 5 players, the amount of time any one player is actually interacting with the GM or the game becomes so small that boredom starts setting in. Even if a player is using the previous player's turn to plan his actions on HIS turn, the more players you have, the more non-player turns any one player gets to sit through. With 5 players, that's 4 times per combat round. Beyond that, it becomes increasingly hard to keep the players' attention... ESPECIALLY because more players means more players who aren't taking their turns and thus more opportunities to get into side conversations. The only real solution here, alas, is to shrink down the party size, or to split into two groups.

2) Group's too random: This happened to one of my favorite groups—while at any one time there were usually only 4 or 5 players, the group itself had a "pool" of about 10 or 12 possible players. The exact players who could show up on any one session was kinda random, so every session was like playing with a brand new group, even though we all knew each other. This made working together pretty tough, since the group dynamic changed every session—one session we might have no front-line fighters, another we might have no clerics. Not sure if this is happening with your group, but I suspect it might be since you say you have 5 to 9 players. When groups I've been in have this problem, there's just less reason to work together since you never have a chance to build up a "team," and worse, you're gaming with new players so often that the urge to catch up on out-of-game events with people you haven't seen in several weeks can be distracting as well.

3) Boredom: Having the same GM and the same players for many years can lead to this, even if you switch campaigns or game systems. Mix things up; have someone else GM a campaign. Or maybe just take a break from RPGs for a few months—keep meeting, but play different types of games when you do. Eventually, you'll get the urge to return to RPGs!


joela wrote:
Take a break. Try non-rpg games for a while (i.e., board games, card games, etc). Break into two groups with each one playing different rpgs. Bring in some new blood.

+1. I really enjoy taking breaks of D&D/Pathfinder(as a GM) from time to time to enjoy the fun and simplicity of board game. Ok, I'm still playing complex games like Axis and Allies and Runewars, but it's a breeze compared to GMing.

The Exchange

Another thing we do is make sure there is 15 mins or so at the beginning of the session where people can talk, catch up, ask the GM about a rule, eat pizza, and generally get it all out of your system.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

Sounds like your group enjoys being social. My group is like that and we plan for it. We have a set meet time and then a set the game will start time, about and hour after that (we say an hour but sometimes we talk shorter or longer depending on life). It gives us time to chit chat about whats been going on in our lives, new games, new ideas about the campaign, or whatever. Once we get that out of our system and we focus on the game the actual gaming goes faster since we are less likely to interrupt play for casual talk. When the Role Play focuses on one or two of the characters, usually my group is interested in the story enough to listen in, but if not that's when they quietly excuse themselves to take a break and head to the other room to chat, get a snack, ect. If they are needed we call for them and GAME ON. We also have a set end time, that we might push 30 min if something exciting is going on. That helps stay focused because we know we need to keep moving if we want to get anything accomplished in the game in the few hours we have to play. Also, some nights one of us will admit they are just not "feeling it" and we agree not to Role Play. We might pull out a board game, card game, or just sit and BS about games, movies, or whatever. We agreed at the beginning this would be our plan and in two years with this group of players I think this has only happened twice. I hope my experience can help you, Good Luck.

Dark Archive

Great ideas here... I will give an update on results of talking with my group. I may have misjudged everyones level of enjoyment. I know as a DM i am not having fun and my player fun is down as well but although everyone agrees that we have problems they are not at my level of dissatifaction.
The group could not agree on any one fix or several smaller fixes.

EX: Currently PC/Cleric. Refuses to not have his players book on the table. He can pray for any spell on any given day and no way he could possible have them all written down and prepared. He looks at his book everytime on his turn to know the particulars of his spell.
--- I suggested he do more pregame prep work or maybe create a group of spells he knows he wants in advance and have them prepared. That did not go over well.

Problems within the group
(core 5 players)
- 1 player refused tp RP. hes in it for combat alone. If he gets bored he start killing and it has caused TPK's.
- 2 players are in it for RP mostly and create under powered melee/casters who often die do to the poor builds compared to the rest of the group(no opt characters). After a death or two they lose interest in the game ( understandable).
- 2 players are well balanced and enjoy both combat and RP. They get frustrated with the above fractions at times as TPK's kill of the characters they are playing.

Extended players problems
(4 hit or miss players)
We never know when these four show up until they walk in the door. So we spend time on recap / character leveling and DM must adjust power level of game for the new influx of characters. These 4 are a mix of RP and combat players who are mostly new to the game and never know the story line.
- Pet peeve : suspension of disbelief is spoiled by "PC" just showing up all of a sudden but its important to get them playing in the game, no one wants to watch people RP for 4 hours.

I guess from the feedback i am getting its more of a concern for me then the rest of the group. So i think i will work on being a better player and lessen my DM role in the group.

Great idea guys... i appreciate everyones help.


WhipShire wrote:


Extended players problems
(4 hit or miss players)
We never know when these four show up until they walk in the door. So we spend time on recap / character leveling and DM must adjust power level of game for the new influx of characters. These 4 are a mix of RP and combat players who are mostly new to the game and never know the story line.
- Pet peeve : suspension of disbelief is spoiled by "PC" just showing up all of a sudden but its important to get them playing in the game, no one wants to watch people RP for 4 hours.

Ok this is something I've had problems with at times. Honestly as a GM I set forth a rule. You have to tell me the week before a session whether you will be playing. If you don't, you don't get to play.

A bit harsh, but it can get out of hand.

Also as for your Cleric and his spells... I don't have a good solution to this other than to tell the player, "If you don't want to put the prep time required with the class play something else." Not the greatest choice, but casters require more work. At least in the next game if you GM again don't let him play a caster again unless this changes.

You may also consider slightly toning down combat if you have so few optimized players. It may make some combats more of a cake walk but that will probably make the combat happy and balanced players still happy.

Scarab Sages

Parka wrote:
If it's combat maneuvers or the bonuses of cover or stuff like that, I believe there's a PDF of condensed combat rules specifically for that. (Found it: SORD for PF. Oddly, not available on Paizo, but RPGNow has it for less than $5.)

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll be getting this right away.

Dark Archive

MaxBarton wrote:
WhipShire wrote:


Extended players problems
(4 hit or miss players)
We never know when these four show up until they walk in the door. So we spend time on recap / character leveling and DM must adjust power level of game for the new influx of characters. These 4 are a mix of RP and combat players who are mostly new to the game and never know the story line.
- Pet peeve : suspension of disbelief is spoiled by "PC" just showing up all of a sudden but its important to get them playing in the game, no one wants to watch people RP for 4 hours.

Ok this is something I've had problems with at times. Honestly as a GM I set forth a rule. You have to tell me the week before a session whether you will be playing. If you don't, you don't get to play.

A bit harsh, but it can get out of hand.

Also as for your Cleric and his spells... I don't have a good solution to this other than to tell the player, "If you don't want to put the prep time required with the class play something else." Not the greatest choice, but casters require more work. At least in the next game if you GM again don't let him play a caster again unless this changes.

You may also consider slightly toning down combat if you have so few optimized players. It may make some combats more of a cake walk but that will probably make the combat happy and balanced players still happy.

I agree with tone down the combat. I understand the rule on casters you mentioned. Problem comes up that were real world friends and have been for a long time before the last 5 years of gaming. Trying to be a good DM and maintain the friendship. Tough i know... lol


WhipShire wrote:


I agree with tone down the combat. I understand the rule on casters you mentioned. Problem comes up that were real world friends and have been for a long time before the last 5 years of gaming. Trying to be a good DM and maintain the friendship. Tough i know... lol

Yeah I was a bit harsh in my phrasing. I play with lifetime friends as well. Just don't be afraid to be upfront about issues. Being firm at times can go a long way.

On the caster issue at least in future games you definitely need to discuss people's ability to keep the pace of combat up. If they aren't sure as GM just tell them to try out a different class, or at least not a primary caster.

On the walk-ins my other advice is to call them all the day before to see if they're coming. Eventually they'll tell you in advance to avoid the call (to save time) or you'll be stuck calling. It's a hassle, but you have to weigh it against the hassle of last minute changes to your session. Someone else may have better advice though. :p

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I have had one, or maybe two extra players from time to time but four? Ouch! Sympathies.

Still, I am a big fan of big groups. Not so some of my players, so one of the things I sometimes have to keep in mind is wether there is friction or confusion because the players aren't all on the same page. If you have a big enough contingent of new players (& 4 sounds like a reasonable number), you might see if you can set up a side game with them another night of the week to help them get familiar with the game and such.

A few other bits of advice (good for any large group):

Use a wipe-board & dry-erase markers for Initiative. I've found over the years having everyone's name up on a wipe-board in initiative order (along with all their allies and enemies) helps give the group something to focus on.

Let inactive players play monsters/npcs. If you have a number of PCs off by themselves or if one or more PCs are down for the count, put the players sitting there twiddling their thumbs to work - give them a monster and let them help antagonize (or aid, if the party has allies/cohorts/flunkies) the party. I once had three PCs having a night on the town in Riddleport get jumped by a wandering pack of wild dogs. Gave a dog to each of the players left back at the in trying to be good and boy did they have fun with that pack. They gave them all names, descriptions, practically made their own "wild hunt" party of their own, all to menace the truant PCs. The one surviving dog even became something of a reoccurring wandering antagonist. More importantly it was more memorable for the players than many of the scripted encounters they faced in that adventure.

Put players familiar with the rules to work! Have them look up rules for you (other GMs are especially good for this), and help out less experienced players figure out what their doing, etc.

Give the enemy some minions, or otherwise add an extra monster or two. A simple search on the topic on these very same forums should yield some useful advice on that subject.


MaxBarton wrote:
Stuff

Ditto what MaxBarton said.

I've told some real life friends that can't play primary spellcasters and they were ok with it. Most admitted they can't do it anyway.

With walk-ins, asking a week ahead is a good idea, and not letting them play if they don't let you know is fair.

Having said that, if the walk-ins aren't real life friends, it's more of a distraction having them show up imo (to me it means they aren't THAT interested in playing), and I'd ask for some kind of commitment from them. Even if only 1 player (out of 4) can make some kind of commitment, a table of 6 players is what you should be aiming for anyways.

Anyway, good luck.

Liberty's Edge

Some players improve a lot in their skill as players when they DM. If you can let someone else DM (perhaps a secondary game? or Co-DM?) they will probably become a better player.

Most of the players in my current group have been a DM at one point in time or another, and I think they're better for it.


I used, not really a co-DM, as much as an assistant. My son was 6 at the time and was interested in the game I was running. I let him roll my dice. The players dreaded his rolls. He was rolling 20s at least one third of the time. Everybody had a blast, though.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Limiting group size REALLY helps to speed up combat, also the condition cards have been a big help for streamlining combat. Devices at the table can be incredibly distracting, especially since everyone started getting a smartphone but they can also be good for organizing people or quick spell/rule lookup. This may help your cleric player. It might take a lot of work to write down every cleric spell (there are PDFs of pre-made spell cards floating around if I remember correctly) but the payoff might be worth it.

For a while when I got burned out on DMing we rotated the responsibility around the group, it worked for a while but only a couple people in my group have any interest in running a game.

For some people who are newer to the game or always having to look up their spells then making up some cards for them may help. Just some 3x5 note cards with a summary of each ability or spell that they can glance through. It helps some people get to know the rules better.

If you have not read it consider picking up the GMG or even the 3.5 DMG2, both of these have advice for how to handle a difficult player.

The player who refuses to RP can be difficult, splitting the group to play on two different days could work (for a while we ran two groups, but it is hard sometimes to find time for that) so you get two groups, one running a combat heavy campaign and the other running a RP heavy or mixed campaign. Large dungeon crawls like the world's largest dungeon might be just what that player wants, or even a board game like Arkham horror, Descent, or Munchkin might better suit the player than a game with RP elements to it. In the end it is really hard to get a party to cooperate when one player hates to RP and another is there to do specifically that.

I don't really have any advice for the players who make very underpowered characters for RP reasons. I have tried a few times but my group is not very interested in role playing. Maybe they need to change the concept of the character they are playing to one that can take a hit or at least knows to stay in the back and play a support role in combat.

Dark Archive

A few other bits of advice (good for any large group):

Use a wipe-board & dry-erase markers for Initiative. I've found over the years having everyone's name up on a wipe-board in initiative order (along with all their allies and enemies) helps give the group something to focus on.

I like this...

The 4 other players are gaming friends to me but good friends with others of the core group. These 4 never show up at the same time so spin off are hard to do. We use a facebook group made just for this purpose to communicate on future games, rules and play times but to get to them to use it is almost like pulling teeth

I really like the CO-DM idea and it was mentioned above and someone started a CO-DM thread as well. The idea was met with shrugs and nods...

Dark Archive

xorial wrote:
I used, not really a co-DM, as much as an assistant. My son was 6 at the time and was interested in the game I was running. I let him roll my dice. The players dreaded his rolls. He was rolling 20s at least one third of the time. Everybody had a blast, though.

Very nice family gaming... lol


Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Take the lead;

Stand up

Make one person responsible for the initiative order in combat. (a small whiteboard or magnetized tracker is brilliant, let them track readies and delayed actions).

Have them be prepared for their turn - spells especially etc...

9 players is a lot - try a couple of smaller groups. You'll find it less demanding.

Start training another GM - get a PFS module and give them some time to get the details together (maps etc..) have them prepare a 1st level PFS and change it up. (You can be the assistant GM if you'd like but let someone else drive).


WhipShire wrote:

Hope this is the correct place to post.

I have a great group of friends (all older people) who I enjoy RP with over the last 5 years. Group size varies from Core 5 to up to 9 players. We play many different type of RPG's. I DM and we swith off at at even rate so you get play time as well as running time.

Heres the problem and hopefully some advice. The gaming table has become crazy... Stopping combat to look up rules / cross table talk so those that are RPing can't even hear at times / not following the game / reading books / looking up spells on their turn ( i mean they had 10 minutes to do that during others guys turns) and just plain signs of boredom. Simple encounters takes an hour while one major encounter went almost 5 hours due to the confusion at the table. Its taking all the fun out of DMing.

Fixes i tried:
- No books / computers / phones at the table (works sorta but hard to enforce with out being a Drill SGT. about it every 10 minutes).
- Went with simplier games, easy on the rules... no dice.
- Rules where if you don;t know how an ability of yours works you can;t use it.

I tried a few other fixes... - I tried talking to them about it and they all agree its a problem but it still continues.

I love to DM with them but even playing is not as much fun anymore. Not sure how i can correct this without hurint a lot of feeling as we do other things outside of gaming.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks

I have all of these problems as well, and my group is much smaller (only four players). Much of the problem seem to come from boredom as pc's are spending a lot of time on their turn (especially spellcasters)and people who wants to go off and do solo stuff and role-play on their own.

My Campaign is currently on a hiatus due to DM burnout and my players are all hyped up for Carrion Crown even though we are only halfway through Serpent skull. This has happened more times than I can remember in the 23 years I have been DM'ing and it usually leads to the death of a Campaign.

I have little advice except to ride it out. As mentioned before try focusing on other hobbies for a while. Eventually you'll get the spark to play rp's back. To me it often helps to watch movies and read books and to play in someone else's Campaign.


Try to play GURPS 4ed, its a much easyer game to run as a master, and it runs much faster than Pathfinder....


Argyele Blackmoor wrote:
Try to play GURPS 4ed, its a much easyer game to run as a master, and it runs much faster than Pathfinder....

I think you took a wrong turn somewhere...


WhipShire wrote:


Problems within the group
(core 5 players)
- 1 player refused tp RP. hes in it for combat alone. If he gets bored he start killing and it has caused TPK's.
- 2 players are in it for RP mostly and create under powered melee/casters who often die do to the poor builds compared to the rest of the group(no opt characters). After a death or two they lose interest in the game ( understandable).
- 2 players are well balanced and enjoy both combat and RP. They get frustrated with the above fractions at times as TPK's kill of the characters they are playing.

Even if it's sounds harsh, kick the first player, it sounds as he's only there to screw the game up for the others. Another way is show him consequences, he killed a townfolk, he get arrested and punished by death!

I think the two next guys only look so "bad" because of the first one, there's nothing wrong with a non-opt build (playing a dwarven Wizard/rouge myself^^), they have there area of expertise, give them their 5 min (as everyone els) to shine.

WhipShire wrote:


Extended players problems
(4 hit or miss players)
We never know when these four show up until they walk in the door. So we spend time on recap / character leveling and DM must adjust power level of game for the new influx of characters. These 4 are a mix of RP and combat players who are mostly new to the game and never know the story line.
- Pet peeve : suspension of disbelief is spoiled by "PC" just showing up all of a sudden but its important to get them playing in the game, no one wants to watch people RP for 4 hours.

I guess from the feedback i am getting its more of a concern for me then the rest of the group. So i think i will work on...

Ok, thats a Problem!

I would never allow "suprise guests" at my table, maybe one, if I know he's a good roleplayer and can adapt easily, but in generell: "tell me if your there, if you don't know you aren't"

I think a lot of problems came from the big group size, we had a 6 man group and similar problems (also a "not prepared" player). As one guy quits, we run much smother, even the "not-prepared" guy prints out spell cards and shows up one day with selfcreated spell area marker for the battle map.

So my general advices:
- talk to the "combat guy", i he's not changing kick him
- kick the 4 "random" guys, even if they are friends
- try a break (someone else can DM or play tabletop games)


WhipShire wrote:
Any advice is welcome.

Try reducing the scope of the game from "soap opera" to "miniseries" or "sitcom" and rotating the GM every few sessions or months. We do that in my game and it's fantastic. Every new GM stint is fresh and interesting.

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