Why don't Rangers get Acrobatics?!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


The thing is, most Perception bonuses don't apply to one sense over the others. They're just '+X Perception'. Where a creature does have one overdeveloped sense, that's usually handled by giving them one of the Special Abilities Pathfinder inherited from 3.5 like Scent or Blindsense.

I must be remembering Beta test racial mods then.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

On a completely unrelated note...

...I just built a stat block for a ranger for "The Brinewall Legacy" in the upcoming Pathfinder #49 and I ended up giving her ranks in Acrobatics AND gave her Skill Focus (Acrobatics) as a feat because I wanted her to be good at the skill... even if the skill's not actually a class skill! :P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I just saved a ton of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico! :)

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
I just saved a ton of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico! :)

I stayed in a holiday inn express last night!

Liberty's Edge

I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

...

Wait...


Gene 95 wrote:

I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

...

Wait...

I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy...

Liberty's Edge

WhooooooooOOoooooooOOoooooooOOooooOOooooa.

Silver Crusade

I'm telling!

Liberty's Edge

*looks at Mikaze*
*looks at TOZ*

Hmmm... once again we meet at last!

Silver Crusade

Studpuffin wrote:

*looks at Mikaze*

*looks at TOZ*

Hmmm... once again we meet at last!

It's time to end this ones and for all!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time.

Liberty's Edge

Mikaze wrote:
Studpuffin wrote:

*looks at Mikaze*

*looks at TOZ*

Hmmm... once again we meet at last!

It's time to end this ones and for all!

what.

Silver Crusade

Precisely.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Just As Planned.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mike Schneider wrote:

What is the concept of a ranger? They sneak around a terrain-type, right? Frequently standing in one spot and full-attacking with a bow? Like to wear medium armor?

So, why should rangers have an especial preference for acrobatics?

Meanwhile, barbarians are moving and leaping in and out of melee, jumping on tables to get high grounds, etc.

Right, and "mountain man" Rangers probably don't exist in your world?


All we need is a trait that makes Acrobatics a class skill and retains DEX as the primary stat. That would easily solve this conundrum. either way it's not that big of a deal


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:


The thing is, most Perception bonuses don't apply to one sense over the others. They're just '+X Perception'. Where a creature does have one overdeveloped sense, that's usually handled by giving them one of the Special Abilities Pathfinder inherited from 3.5 like Scent or Blindsense.

Climb and Swim bonuses on the other hand generally show up on their own. It's pretty rare you see them both on the same creature (off the top of my head, I know the various rats have both climb and swim speeds, and I think the various varieties of snake are the same). Combining them into Athletics would result in almost every instance of an Athletics bonus needing a specific clarification.

I agree that could be a challenge, yet while a lot of special perception gets called out with specific abilities, we could call attention to differences in climb and swim with specific movement speeds. I'd also like to point out that the folding of jump into acrobatics has a few of its problems as well, not just limited to rangers. Witness the incredible, tumbling bulette with his Acrobatics +9, invested along with a bonus, to get a high jump.

So there's weirdness all around. It's more a question of which weirdness you want.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
Right, and "mountain man" Rangers probably don't exist in your world?

What does climbing rocks have to do with acrobatics?

I suppose if they're mountain goats always making tumble checks to move through the threatened squares of ambushing snow leopards....


Mike Schneider wrote:
Quote:
Right, and "mountain man" Rangers probably don't exist in your world?

What does climbing rocks have to do with acrobatics?

I suppose if they're mountain goats always making tumble checks to move through the threatened squares of ambushing snow leopards....

Not hurting yourself if you get attacked and fall.

Dark Archive

On a related note for Rangers and Acrobatics,

Why is it that Rangers do not get the other high dex related class abilities, like uncanny dodge or evasion?

If you compaire the list of classes that get acrobatics:

Barbarian: Gets Uncanny Dodge.

Bard: I guess they just get it since they perform.

Monk: gets evasion

Rogue: gets uncanny dodge and evasion.

Personally, I think that they are related. Most classes that get acrobatics, also get a class ability that highlights the fact that they are fast on their feet (in a way that makes sense for the class). Rangers, on the other hand, get class features that highlight that they are sneaky (camouflage) and travel off the beaten path (woodland stride).

Now that being said. You do not need to max out a skill for it to be useful to a character. Any ranger can take acrobatics, and be good enough for most situations where you would need it. But characters who have class skills that show off their fast feet, are going to shine a little better in those same situations.

I can, personally, see more reason to give all classes perception then give all classes acrobatics.


Rangers don't have Acrobatics as a class skill because Minsc and Boo said so. :)

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

doctor_wu wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
Quote:
Right, and "mountain man" Rangers probably don't exist in your world?

What does climbing rocks have to do with acrobatics?

I suppose if they're mountain goats always making tumble checks to move through the threatened squares of ambushing snow leopards....

Not hurting yourself if you get attacked and fall.

Doesn't that only work for deliberate falls?

Liberty's Edge

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
Not hurting yourself if you get attacked and fall.

That only saves you from a teensy bit.

If you go off the side of a cliff, you're still pizza sans Featherfall.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cartigan wrote:
I just remembered Pathfinder doesn't have Athletics. Nonsensical, but whatever.

I agree that Acrobatics should be a class skill for Rangers.

I also agree that Athletics replacing Climb and Swim would make a great deal of sense. I'd probably also consider moving Jumping out of Acrobatics and into Athletics, too.

I'd fold Escape Artist into Acrobatics, so...

Acrobatics = Balance, Tumble, and Escape Artist
Athletics = Climb, Swim, and Jump

Liberty's Edge

Happler wrote:
Why is it that Rangers do not get the other high dex related class abilities, like uncanny dodge or evasion?

Rangers do get Evasion at 9th level.


Heymitch wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
I just remembered Pathfinder doesn't have Athletics. Nonsensical, but whatever.

I agree that Acrobatics should be a class skill for Rangers.

I also agree that Athletics replacing Climb and Swim would make a great deal of sense. I'd probably also consider moving Jumping out of Acrobatics and into Athletics, too.

I'd fold Escape Artist into Acrobatics, so...

Acrobatics = Balance, Tumble, and Escape Artist
Athletics = Climb, Swim, and Jump

Not bad, but I'd keep Escape Artist seperate. As for the Acrobatics as a class skill for Rangers, I'd say Athletics is more fundamental to the class. Or just give them the choice of one or the other as a class skill. Personally, which is the class skill is not that important -- it's not like they can't take it anyway, sans the +3 (and take Skill Focus if it's that important to them).


The answer to your question is here.

Play a spell-less Ranger. It replaces Spellcraft with Acrobatics; among other things. But, as the name implies, you lose your ability to cast spells.

Which, personally, I don't think Rangers should be able to do in the first place. I mean, Aragorn didn't cast spells.


I feel the same way. In fact, when I wrote the Spell-less Ranger for Kobold Quarterly #11, I made sure that the class DID have Acrobatics as a class skill.

Wait, wait, wait... Hold up.

Did you really write that or are you just b.s-ing?

Because if you did...

YOU ARE A TOTAL GENIUS AND I LOVE YOU!


Deyvantius wrote:

Can anyone explain why a Barbarian would get acrobatics but not a Ranger?

I really like the concept of the Urban Ranger (as I think Rogues being the only people to detect and disable traps is pretty lame) but Ranger's don't get acrobatics and their is no trait to make it a class skill. Was this some type of balance issue?

Because Rangers aren't rogues. As much as we want to pretend otherwise.


UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:

The answer to your question is here.

Play a spell-less Ranger. It replaces Spellcraft with Acrobatics; among other things. But, as the name implies, you lose your ability to cast spells.

Which, personally, I don't think Rangers should be able to do in the first place. I mean, Aragorn didn't cast spells.

Did you just necro a thread to tell someone that rangers don't get acrobatics is because 'play a spell less ranger!'? I don't think that explains why rangers don't get acrobatics...

Liberty's Edge

UlrichVonLichtenstein wrote:


I feel the same way. In fact, when I wrote the Spell-less Ranger for Kobold Quarterly #11, I made sure that the class DID have Acrobatics as a class skill.

Wait, wait, wait... Hold up.

Did you really write that or are you just b.s-ing?

Because if you did...

YOU ARE A TOTAL GENIUS AND I LOVE YOU!

Wow, this thread is a real oldy but a goody!!!

I can't quite tell for sure since there is no actual quote, but was that question directed at me? If so, yep, I wrote the Spell-less Ranger in Kobold Quarterly #11. You can check out many of my writing (and illustration and graphic design) credits by clicking my avatar and checking out my bio if you like :)

In fact, for fans of the Spell-less Ranger that don't know, the class has was expanded and released as the first of the successful New Paths line. You can check it out here:

New Paths #1: The Expanded Spell-less Ranger


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hey, wow, that's quite some necromancy here. And Rangers which can't jump still doesn't make sense, especially if the reason only was to make their skill list distinct from Barbarians.


Since then there came up the infamous Acrobatics trait.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, good! Now, did they give us a Perception class skill trait, too? ^^


magnuskn wrote:
Oh, good! Now, did they give us a Perception class skill trait, too? ^^

Actually yes, Seeker.


First off, epic necro... good job on that. Secondly, not having Acrobatics as a class skill hardly means you can't jump; any more than not having Bluff as a class skill doesn't mean you cannot tell a lie or not having Perception as a class skill means you cannot see. Acrobatics skill merely governs your chances to succeed at complicated jumps, falls, and other acrobatic maneuvers. The Ranger class training merely doesn't emphasize that as much because the premise is that you think far enough ahead to avoid needing it in the first place. You don't "fall", you find the way down. You don't tumble to avoid AoOs, you ambush and control the terrain. Barbarians, on the other hand, act on instinct and impulse so they will often be in situations where they have to make up for their emphasis on tactics over strategy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, because we all heard about the amazing tumbling Barbarian brother duo, Aark and Uurk. ^^

The real problem is that for some reason jumping (formerly a Strength based skill) was put into the Dexterity-based Acrobatics skill. Nobody thought before that Rangers and Barbarians would be amazing at tumbling around the battlefield. But they had Jump as a class skill for 3E and 3.5, so taking it away from the Ranger (and Fighter, btw), but leaving it for the Barbarian makes little sense.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Oh, good! Now, did they give us a Perception class skill trait, too? ^^
Actually yes, Seeker.

Oh, hey, wow. Alright, all bases covered, it seems. Cool.

Thanks for the info! :)

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