Archer Rogue Advice


Advice


I know that archer rogues are not optimal builds, but I need to build one anyway and want to make the best of a bad situation. I need the same rogue built at levels 2, 6 and 11. Would someone mind critiquing the builds I have so far? Limited to, basically, what's available on the PRD.

Here's what I have so far. Human Rogue, elite array.

Level 2
Str: 13
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Feats and Talents
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Bleeding Attack
Gear
MW Shortbow
Rapier
Chain Shirt
sundry items

Level 6
Str: 13
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Feats and Talents
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
WF: Shortbow*
Iron Will
Precise Shot
Bleeding Attack
Gear
+1 Comp Shortbow [+1]
+1 Rapier
+1 Chain Shirt
Belt of Dex +2
Cloak of Resist +2
sundry items

Level 11
Str: 13
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Feats and Talents
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
WF: Shortbow*
Iron Will
Precise Shot
Arm Prof: Med*
Great Fortitude
Imp Crit Shortbow
Bleeding Attack
Crippling Attack
Gear
+1 Corrosive, Seeking Comp Shortbow [+2]
+1 Rapier
+2 Mithral Breasplate
Am of Nat Arm +1
Ring of Prot +1
Belt of Dex +4
Cloak of Resist +4
Sniper Goggles

Any advice is most welcome. I've not posted skills because this guy is supposed to be designed for maximum DPR on an archer rogue build. Thanks!


You could take the scout, poisoner, or spy archetypes. Scout gives you an extra way to pull off sneak attack. Poisoner and spy allow you to use poison on your arrows without having to worry about poisoning yourself.


Mauril wrote:

I know that archer rogues are not optimal builds, but I need to build one anyway and want to make the best of a bad situation.

Here's what I have so far. Human Rogue, elite array.

Hmm...first advice, go Elf. Bonus DEX and INT, and you can spare the CON, since you're a ranged combatant. More damage with MW Composite Longbow (get to 14 STR for the bonus damage).

Precise Shot is pretty much mandatory, as you don't want to be hitting allies. Get it before Rapid Shot or even Deadly Aim. Sell out Bleeding Attack for Combat Trick to get the feats you need for this.

Quote:

WF: Shortbow*

Iron Will

Two feats you don't IMHO need. Yes, extra Will saves are very nice, and +1 to hit is also nice. You could trade up to some versatility with EWP: Elven Curve Blade and Power Attack; making you a switch hitter when the enemy gets close. Or must you stay pure archer?

Quote:


Level 11
WF: Shortbow*
Iron Will
Precise Shot
Arm Prof: Med*

Is multiclassing banned? You'd get a lot out of one level of Fighter. Also, an elven fighter would get EWP: Elven Curve Blade as a Martial Weapon Proficiency.

Quote:


Any advice is most welcome. I've not posted skills because this guy is supposed to be designed for maximum DPR on an archer rogue build. Thanks!

Also, finding a place to squeeze in Manyshot would be good.


Iron Will is sort of required for this build. I have to meet a minimum level on saves. WF: Shortbow is from the rogue talent Weapon Training. Precise shot comes in at level 3, but I could move it to level 1.

I was really torn on Elf or Human. The Skilled trait from being human and the +2 INT equal out as far as skill points go. Getting the longbow over the shortbow was about the only reason I'd want to go Elf over Human, but I wasn't sure I wanted to trade it for the bonus feat.

I thought I had squeezed in Manyshot. I'm pretty sure I calculated his damage based on him having it. I don't think Great Fortitude is necessary (I'll just need another +1 on my cloak of resistance), so I'll swap those out. Nice catch.


Mauril wrote:

Iron Will is sort of required for this build. I have to meet a minimum level on saves. WF: Shortbow is from the rogue talent Weapon Training. Precise shot comes in at level 3, but I could move it to level 1.

I was really torn on Elf or Human. The Skilled trait from being human and the +2 INT equal out as far as skill points go. Getting the longbow over the shortbow was about the only reason I'd want to go Elf over Human, but I wasn't sure I wanted to trade it for the bonus feat.

I thought I had squeezed in Manyshot. I'm pretty sure I calculated his damage based on him having it. I don't think Great Fortitude is necessary (I'll just need another +1 on my cloak of resistance), so I'll swap those out. Nice catch.

Sounds like you've got some really constraining requirements. I'm assuming this is a thought exercise.

The Elf gets a ton of bonus feats (mostly weapon proficiencies) and a lot of other benefits. If this was a ranged Fighter, human would be fine, but a ranged Rogue, you want Longbows, and having Longswords doesn't hurt either.

As for Rogue Talents, Surprise Attack is gold for ranged rogues, as you'll get your SA damage in the surprise round every time. You don't have to rely on initiative.


An archer rogue is really two things:

1) You're a viable rogue, with sneaking, lockpicking, forgery, etc.
2) You're an acceptable full attacking archer. You'll never quite keep up with a fighter, but you'll do okay.

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From time to time, you'll get sneak attack damage. However, the be-all and end-all is the full attack.

Where this build falls down is over-reliance on sneak attack damage. I've seen archer rogues sneak for a round, climb for a round, to finally make one sneak attack on round three.

In the same amount of time, THE SAME GUY could have shot nine arrows; three per round, for more total damage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Make sure your sundry items include thrown weapons like tanglefoot bags, acid flasks, and holy water. You'll have great aim to use those.

Likewise, UMD is really nice. You'll be able to kick out big damage with a wand of scorching ray, or any other ranged attack spell. UMD is also nice for your roguery; detect magic scrolls alone are awesome.
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Previous posters are correct, you need str more than con, and elf offers some serious benefits. If not that, take a level in a class that gives better weapons, like fighter or ranger.

You also want point blank, precise, and rapid shot first. You can take a bit of a breather after that; fit something else in if you like.

Other feats are good to have, but aside from Deadly Aim, none are as critical as those three.


The limits are pretty restrictive. It's basically a modified version of the DPR Olympics. The restrictions are as follows:

    # Builds at level 2, 6 and 11
    # Standard WBL, no consumable or per-day items
    # Elite array
    # AC equal to or greater than target AC
    # Saves at least +1/+5/+9 for levels 2/6/11

We are each tasked with building single classed archetypal builds. I've been sent the archer builds for fighter, ranger, rogue and paladin. I'm pretty confident in my fighter and ranger, but struggled with the rogue. Paladin shouldn't be that difficult either.

Yeah, it's a thought experiment. Basically an in-house DPR competition intended to be used to start playtesting some homebrew rules and weapons.

Sczarni

Elf, all the way.

Longbow, perception, bonus to saves, immunity to sleep effects, & low light vision make up for 1 feat easily enough.

Point blank shot, rogue talent precise shot, rapid shot, rogue talent weapon focus at 4th level has you pumping out 2 arrows per round @ 3(bab)+dex+1(PBS)+1(WF)-2(rapid shot) for 1d8+str+1 on each hit.

Deadly aim @ 5th, manyshot @ 9th.

Scout archetype + vital strike +deadly aim allows for really impressive in game damage, but not sure how it'd stack up in pure DPR competitions.


All depends on what sort of archer you want. Do you want to stand and shoot as many arrows as you can, or be on the move all the time and do as much damage as damage with one shot?

The feats you have select seems to imply you want to be the former, but to get sneak attack damage, you really almost need to be doing the later.

If you take the scout archetype, you can move 10 ft+ and deal sneak attack damage as if the target was flat footed. And as psionichamster said, you can take vital strike to do more damage.

But yeah I wonder how the DPS would stake between the two. Might do some calculations and find out.


To me, trying to build an archer rogue for damage in a vacuum is asking the wrong question.

It'll always take either consumables or, more likely and sustainably, teamwork for him to reliably sneak attack. On his own, in combat, he won't ever be more than a kind of okay archer. With a party member willing to improved invis him, blind enemies for him, etc., he looks a lot different.

Liberty's Edge

Elves of Golarion has some very nice arrows that can be crafted with alchemy and fletching. A rogue definitely gains enough skills to justify spending some on crafting.


I would personally say,
go half elf, swap out adaptability for dual minded(+2 will save).
For traits-Resilient(+1 fort save), indomitable faith(+1 will save)
w/ elite array I would go str=14,dex=17,con=13,int=10,wis=12,cha=8
dex to 18 at lvl 4, con to 14 at lvl 8.
saves by lvl(F/R/W)
2nd lvl (2/5/4)
6th lvl (6/9/5)
11th lvl (8/11/8)

Then go swashbuckler rogue, picking up longbow.
Feats by lvl.
1- point blank shot
2- combat trick- precise shot
3- WF- longbow
4- combat trick- rapid shot
5- Great fortitude
7-iron will
9-manyshot
11
I am currently unsure of where to put the last few feats. (save boosting feats selected just to stay within range of your required +11)

Talents by lvl.
2- combat trick
4- combat trick
6-bleeding attack
8-
10-

I personally like the idea of using fast getaway+parting shot(standard action sneak attack, then move action to withdraw and fire an extra shot while doing it) but that will not likely show up in a dpr comparison.

The benefit of this is that, by taking half eld you do not take a hit to your con score by going elf and you get an extra boost to your will save from dual minded. Swashbuckler works well because it nets you longbow proficiency and it gets you an extra combat feat through talents. Anyway, pure rogue with 0 multiclassing is tough as they say. If you could just drop 1 lvl of this into fighter,barbarian, or ranger, your fort save would jump by 2, you would get martial weapon proficiency, and many feats would be saved.

Dark Archive

First thing is first, you are going to want to find a way to at LEAST make your foes flat footed some way other than concealment & stealth because that will only work for one hit, even with greater invisibility the foe gets a perception to identify the square you attacked from & unless you are using your move action to ACTIVELY use stealth it will automatically know this & will remove the flat-footed condition from themselves.

I recommend looking at the shatter defenses line of feats which allows you (at level 9) to make an intimidate check VS all visible opponents as a full round action, & any shaken, demoralized or panicked foe you strike loses their dex bonus against you until the end of your next turn which means you can do the following. Of course this relies on you putting ranks into intimidate.

Round 1 (Surprise)- Draw my weapon & get into tactical position
Round 2 - Full round intimidate all foes in 30 feet to demoralize (DC 10+CR+Wis mod)
Round 3 - Full attack on any creature you effect for normal + sneak attack damage

I highly recommend the rake archetype for this as it also lets you sacrifice sneak attack dice to demoralize when you just can't spend a full round to intimidate or have an opening for sneak attack already (Ex. Invisibility) & would rather attack for some damage than simply JUST intimidate.

You can also pick up focused shot that adds your int modifier to damage done from st&ard attack actions with a ranged weapon to attack (The typical "I fire my weapon & move.").

Since you don't have a full BAB I don't think it would be very smart to try to be a turret as far as attacks go because you, simply stated, won't be able to hit reliably enough on high AC monsters with attacks that make use of multiple attacks like manyshot or rapid shot. Things like that are BEST left to full BAB warriors like fighters, rangers, paladins, & even monks (Who attack at full BAB when flurrying, Zen Archers are CRAZY powerful turrets).

My suggestion is to pick a weapon & stick with it. A lot of people are going to tell you to go with a composite longbow, but I personally prefer using repeating crossbows or the equivalent that allows you to load as a free action (can be done through feats), & fire it with one h&, which leaves you able to use a shield, cast spells, retrieve potions etc. This way it also allows you to keep a lower strength score which can be better spent on dex, int, wis, & charisma.

Another bonus is that it progressively gets more & more powerful as you level & isn't some low level trick. At level 2 you can't (obviously) get the whole thing to work for you but getting free (or near free) checks to demoralize an opponent (Mechanically –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, & ability checks.) which is a equivalent giving all party members(Self included) +2 to AC, CMD, opposed skill/ability checks (Think spell resistance), & spell/poison DC's. It is the equivalent of spending either 3.5 damage on average (Before DR/whatever), or an action to inspire the whole party vs any enemy you succeed against which stacks with morale bonuses.

This can all be done using nothing but the CRB & the APG (Meaning it is PRD & PF Society friendly).

Sczarni

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

First thing is first, you are going to want to find a way to at LEAST make your foes flat footed some way other than concealment & stealth because that will only work for one hit, even with greater invisibility the foe gets a perception to identify the square you attacked from & unless you are using your move action to ACTIVELY use stealth it will automatically know this & will remove the flat-footed condition from themselves.

I recommend looking at the shatter defenses line of feats which allows you (at level 9) to make an intimidate check VS all visible opponents as a full round action, & any shaken, demoralized or panicked foe you strike loses their dex bonus against you until the end of your next turn which means you can do the following. Of course this relies on you putting ranks into intimidate.

Round 1 (Surprise)- Draw my weapon & get into tactical position
Round 2 - Full round intimidate all foes in 30 feet to demoralize (DC 10+CR+Wis mod)
Round 3 - Full attack on any creature you effect for normal + sneak attack damage

d20pfSRD.com wrote:


Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See the invisibility special ability

The bolded selection is incorrect by RAW. Sighted creatures may know where the attack originated from, and target that square freely, but that does not remove the "invisible" condition from the attacker, nor the "loses dexterity bonus to AC" condition from the target.

Weapon Focus > Dazzling Display > Shatter Defenses is quite a nice way to rack up "Flat-Footed" conditions when unable to become invisible or otherwise stealth around. However, the Full-Round Action necessary to use Dazzling Display, as well as feat intensive nature of that build and the BAB requirements, makes it quite tricky to pull off.

In my experience (after playing a "Crossbow Sniper" Rogue in 3.5, a "TWF Hand Crossbow" Rogue with Beta rules, a Ranger/Rogue "Longbow Turret" in Kingmaker, and an Elven Skirmisher Rogue in RotRL) is that full attacks + Deadly Aim are almost all you'll ever need for real, in game combat.

Loosing volleys of arrows, usually while moving to support the melee team, does enough damage that when the sneak attack shots land, they're really just a nice surprise. Key to this was not dumping Strength, and (except for the crossbow guys) using a composite bow ASAP.

Again, this worked for real game experience, but I don't know how well it'll stand up in a straight DPR race...I have a feeling calculating the Archer Rogue's DPR 3 ways (none of the attacks get SA, one gets SA, and all get SA) will yield the most telling data for your playtest.

Dark Archive

That is not true, if you are able to locate a creatures square they are attacking from you are able to defend yourself appropriately against them. Of course they are going to have to make a perception check to notice where the attack came from but it does NOT deny them the ability to do so. Additionally, using stealth to hide from an enemy requires a move action to trigger, be it for the purpose of hiding, or just being part of the move they STILL have to make the stealth check if they expect the enemy to be unaware of the position of PC. Thus the reason for why invisibility simply grants a bonus to stealth. For this case the player would be sniping in the case of a single attack at a -20 penalty regardless of invisibility. There are plenty of creatures with scent, tremorsense, or high enough perception to notice such a thing, even IF the player did roll stealth in such a case. For instance an invisible character full attacks they do not have the action economy to use the stealth skill and assume cannot be assumed to be actively hiding which would grant them only the inherent bonuses to this check equal to the environment, cover, and his size. Meaning a medium size creature without cover who is invisible that does not move (Full attack sequence) would have a perception DC to notice the square they are located in, of 20 (+1 per 5 feet away from the target).

Characters that are invisible cannot be assumed to be impossible to locate through perception. Feats like blindfight also make it a non issue.


Carbon D. Metric wrote:

That is not true, if you are able to locate a creatures square they are attacking from you are able to defend yourself appropriately against them. Of course they are going to have to make a perception check to notice where the attack came from but it does NOT deny them the ability to do so. Additionally, using stealth to hide from an enemy requires a move action to trigger, be it for the purpose of hiding, or just being part of the move they STILL have to make the stealth check if they expect the enemy to be unaware of the position of PC. Thus the reason for why invisibility simply grants a bonus to stealth. For this case the player would be sniping in the case of a single attack at a -20 penalty regardless of invisibility. There are plenty of creatures with scent, tremorsense, or high enough perception to notice such a thing, even IF the player did roll stealth in such a case. For instance an invisible character full attacks they do not have the action economy to use the stealth skill and assume cannot be assumed to be actively hiding which would grant them only the inherent bonuses to this check equal to the environment, cover, and his size. Meaning a medium size creature without cover who is invisible that does not move (Full attack sequence) would have a perception DC to notice the square they are located in, of 20 (+1 per 5 feet away from the target).

Characters that are invisible cannot be assumed to be impossible to locate through perception. Feats like blindfight also make it a non issue.

Actually, if the attacker remains invisible, they still count as invisible (meaning they deny Dex Bonus to AC, qualifying for a sneak attack). Nowhere in the description of the effects of invisibility does it say that characters regain their dex bonus if they know where the attacker is.

That said, if it's a ranged attack from more than 5' away or a reach attack from more than 5' away, they CANNOT pinpoint the location of the attacker, just the general area. It says so in the special abilities chapter explicitly, even if they succeed in a perception check.

Now remaining hidden without invisibility requires a move action and sniper check. With invisibility, they can laugh at you, and you can even be 'pinpointed' and still attack and deny them their Dex to AC. A 5'x5'x5' square is a big area to defend yourself from.

Also, the attacker can take a 5' step in-between attacks during a full attack and suddenly they're not where the defender thinks they are.

Now, scent, blindsense, tremorsense, blindsight and blindfighting all mess with this. But at a basic state, invisibility=denied dex to AC unless the character can see the attacker somehow. Stealth only matters in location, not defense. Picture it this way: with no training, in a completely dark room, someone with night vision goggles attacks you, firing arrows at you. You know he's there, you know the general direction, you might even be able to hear the sound of the weapon, but you don't know where the blow is coming from, and dodging may just put you in-line with the attack rather than out.

BUT, if you can figure out where he's coming from, you have a chance to swing or shoot back. Not a great chance, and he could be dodging, but a chance.

It may even be a better idea for an invisible sniping rogue to simply fire and move.

Now, I'm not sure if using Stealth: sniper would be useful in this case. The character is already 'hidden' in terms for sneak attack, and so wouldn't necessarily need to hide again, if general area location (the only thing possible with a ranged attack) isn't a problem.

If they do, then firing and moving in stealth would be a better solution.


BTW, I am looking forward to this thread. I'm putting together a crossbow rogue for a game. Probably a different direction, but I'm looking forward to picking up hints.

Sczarni

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

That is not true, if you are able to locate a creatures square they are attacking from you are able to defend yourself appropriately against them. Of course they are going to have to make a perception check to notice where the attack came from but it does NOT deny them the ability to do so. Additionally, using stealth to hide from an enemy requires a move action to trigger, be it for the purpose of hiding, or just being part of the move they STILL have to make the stealth check if they expect the enemy to be unaware of the position of PC. Thus the reason for why invisibility simply grants a bonus to stealth. For this case the player would be sniping in the case of a single attack at a -20 penalty regardless of invisibility. There are plenty of creatures with scent, tremorsense, or high enough perception to notice such a thing, even IF the player did roll stealth in such a case. For instance an invisible character full attacks they do not have the action economy to use the stealth skill and assume cannot be assumed to be actively hiding which would grant them only the inherent bonuses to this check equal to the environment, cover, and his size. Meaning a medium size creature without cover who is invisible that does not move (Full attack sequence) would have a perception DC to notice the square they are located in, of 20 (+1 per 5 feet away from the target).

Characters that are invisible cannot be assumed to be impossible to locate through perception. Feats like blindfight also make it a non issue.

Source here:

Special Abilities: Invisibility

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