Are Nick Logue's Promises of Refunds Empty?


Product Discussion

Liberty's Edge

Nick Logue has been promising that any customer that wanted a refund for pre-orders of Razor Coast or Ebon Shroud (or any of his other promised, but non-existent titles) would get their money back.

I'm calling him out.

I contacted Nick by e-mail at loguen@essex.ac.uk multiple times since March 6th to obtain a refund for Ebon Shroud. There's been no refund, or even any acknowledgment from him that he was working on the problem (for nearly three weeks). I have made 4 separate follow-up attempts to contact him about this matter.

Here's what Nick had to say in another thread on this board on March 7th:

Nicolas Logue wrote:

Those concerned about refunds - just email me at loguen@essex.ac.uk and I'll process those for you as quickly as possible - I'm slowly slogging my way through them all, but its a load of looking up order histories so its taking longer than I would have liked. Sorry for the delays on the repays! Shoot me an email and I will sort you all out! No refund left behind!

Nick

As a result of Nick's lack of response, I'd decided to also ask for a refund on Razor Coast (I e-mailed him on 3/22). It's only been three days but, of course, there has also been no response.

I understand that that there's a lot involved in producing a quality gaming product. I can understand how, even with the best of intentions, some products would just never materialize.

However, Nick accepted money for these non-existent products. Also, the work involved in issuing a refund would seem to be a lot less daunting than publishing one of these titles.

I can accept an endless stream of excuses as to why a product couldn't be completed, but why can't a refund be completed? Just how much slogging and looking up order histories is really involved? I was able to find all of the relevant e-mails from Sinister Adventures from 08/30/09 with about 6 seconds of "slogging" on my part. I even quoted the body of those e-mails in my messages to Nick.

So, Nick, where's my money?

Liberty's Edge

Nick responded to my e-mail after 36 days:

Nicolas Logue wrote:

Hi Mitch!

Sorry for the delay, I am SWAMPED in refunding people right now, but will be getting it all knocked down this week. Sorry again!

Nick"

We'll see...


Well, the people who have gotten their refund should post that as well, just to be fair.


I requested a partial refund (yes i'll still wait for Razor Coast ...a bit).

Got nothing so far...

Grand Lodge

I also requestd a refund on my order several days ago. Nothing so far.
Posted on another thread and no reply there either.

What are we, the trusting to do?
Time will tell.
Surely the Gaming Gods will step in to straighten this out.

Grand Lodge

new rumor:
Nic, how are the islands? Warm, sunny and the drinks cold?
Hope nyou got enough money from we the trusting.
:)

Liberty's Edge

Heymitch wrote:
Nick responded to my e-mail after 36 days:
Nicolas Logue wrote:

Hi Mitch!

Sorry for the delay, I am SWAMPED in refunding people right now, but will be getting it all knocked down this week. Sorry again!

Nick"

Heymitch wrote:

We'll see...

Well, the week is over. Since Nick surely knocked down that pile of refunds this past week, I must be just about the only guy left he hasn't paid yet. Gosh, it can't be long now...

...Or maybe you're just full of it, Nick.

Nick may have gone into this with the best of intentions, but right now, he's nothing but a con artist, making empty promises that he has no intention of keeping.

Liberty's Edge

Lyingbastard wrote:
Well, the people who have gotten their refund should post that as well, just to be fair.

Yeah. Where are those people? I imagine there aren't many of them, but anyone who wants to post to let us know that there are some people out there that Nick didn't cheat out of their money, go for it.

Grand Lodge

Questions,
How are these refunds being done?
Check in the mail? (Have heard this before.)
Electronically to the account from which it was paid?
Will me be given an e-mail notice when check is sent or when money is re-deposited to our accounts?

Has anyone got this information, if so please educate me on the details.

Thanks to all in advance.

Liberty's Edge

Katt De Grey wrote:
How are these refunds being done?

I'm sorry to say this, but I think the answer to your question is that refunds are not being done.

I've no doubt that someone will now leap to Nick's defense, and tell me that for for all I know millions of people the world over could have gotten their money back from Nick, they just all lack internet access, and that's why none of them appear to be posting the good news.

That's possible, I suppose.

It's also possible that bunnies are secretly ruling the Earth. Just because I suspect that's not true doesn't necessarily make it false. Perhaps Easter will be our time of revenge. Take that Bunny Overlord! I just bit the head off of your chocolate effigy!


Heymitch wrote:
Katt De Grey wrote:
How are these refunds being done?

I'm sorry to say this, but I think the answer to your question is that refunds are not being done.

I've no doubt that someone will now leap to Nick's defense, and tell me that for for all I know millions of people the world over could have gotten their money back from Nick, they just all lack internet access, and that's why none of them appear to be posting the good news.

I think I saw one or two people saying they got their refunds on another thread somewhere around on the boards. Don't remember which one.

Chances are that if anyone else received refunds they are simply washing their hands of the matter and putting it behind them. Why even bother keeping up with the rage threads when it's over for them?

If you honestly feel that he's not refunding anyone and you'll never see your money, then consider your other options to get it. But others have reported that they are getting refunded, so patience might be warranted.

It's a tangled mess and its going to take time to finish getting untangled. But threads like this? Not even remotely helpful. Either wait and keep poking with emails or consider other avenues. But stop with the constant insulting across multiple threads. There's no reason to start a thread like this just to vent your own rage when there are others on the exact same topic.

Dreamscarred Press

Tobias wrote:
If you honestly feel that he's not refunding anyone and you'll never see your money, then consider your other options to get it.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but given the length of time most of these people have likely waited since paying, likely the only recourse is small claims court. PayPal / banks / credit cards usually only give up to 90 days to reverse the charges. Many only 30-60 days.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Given that Nick is in England and the claimants may be in the US or Canada, options get even trickier.

Nic Logue is not an unknown person in this community. I would imagine your best bet is simply to be patient and keep asking for a refund via whatever method is available. I don't believe that Nic is guilty of malfeasance; much more likely is that he doesn't have the money having already spent it on the work in progress or he's busy with something else and unable to currently reply.


jeremy.smith wrote:
Tobias wrote:
If you honestly feel that he's not refunding anyone and you'll never see your money, then consider your other options to get it.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but given the length of time most of these people have likely waited since paying, likely the only recourse is small claims court. PayPal / banks / credit cards usually only give up to 90 days to reverse the charges. Many only 30-60 days.

Yes, it probably would be legal options, but financial institutions' refund policies would matter less considering the refund offer that went out not to long ago. It depends on the venue, basis for claim, jurisdiction and a ton of other matters.

But that doesn't make it any less an option.

Quote:
Given that Nick is in England and the claimants may be in the US or Canada, options get even trickier.

True, but tricky doesn't mean impossible.

My point is that looking into legal options is an option, even across borders. I don't think it's worth it and I don't think it's remotely necessary. But there's no reason for multiple "I hate Nick Logue" threads, regardless of whether or not they're warranted, and this is clearly something that is eating away at Heymitch to the point where he needs everyone in the world to know.

If he truly believes his money is absolutely gone and Nick has no intention of paying him back, then he has the option to start an extremely complex and probably very expensive legal proceeding to get back his money (what are we talking here? $75-$100?) and pay for it out of pocket while asking for costs in the judgment.

And if he doesn't want to do that he can wait patiently with everyone else for a refund or simply accept that he isn't going to get it back and walk away.


While I'm not going to defend a situation I'm not involved in, the following might be useful:

1) its posible something has happened that has prevented Nick from responding/refunding people. Perhaps he or a loved one is sick or hurt. Maybe his computer suddenly died. Or some other serious matter has occured and he can't let you all know what's up.

2) it could be that all of a sudden he's able to complete whatever project you paid for but for some reason is unable to inform you that's the case.

3) I had a sightly similar thing happen to me. I had paid for a comissioned piece of comic art from Rags Morales, one of the top pencilers in the business, but he couldn't get it to me via the end of the Con, so he said he'd mail it to me when done. I paid him $70 which for me is quite a lot, and had nothing to go on but his rep and popularity would keep him honest. Time passed and nothing. Emailed him and he was hella busy with other stuff but said he hadn't forgotten me. Eventually, bout a year and several emails later, I was able to hand pick up the piece at a NY Comic Con and because he felt so bad for making me wait, he gave me a badass full body shot wth a sick background as opposed to the plain headshot I paid for. Needless to say Rags and I are now good buddies and he gained a fan for life.

Point is, we don't know why Nick is silent or "neglecting" you all. Perhaps he really has taken ur money and ran.....or maybe its something else. Have some faith. I did, and it turned out awesomely for me

Grand Lodge

i am a fan of Nick's work, but was just asking for general info. on how refunds were being done.
This tangled mess is just that a tangled mess, hopefully it will all get strightened out to everyones satisfaction.

Shadow Lodge

Monkeygod wrote:


1) its posible something has happened that has prevented Nick from responding/refunding people. Perhaps he or a loved one is sick or hurt. Maybe his computer suddenly died. Or some other serious matter has occured and he can't let you all know what's up.

The problem with that is that this isn't something that's all of a sudden become a problem. Pre-orders began over three years ago. And it's been pretty apparent for WELL over a year that these projects are vaporware. (Yeah, a few supporters will deny that, but they're the kind who are also still firmly convinced the Gygax estate will eventually publish the complete Castle Greyhawk.)

Monkeygod wrote:


2) it could be that all of a sudden he's able to complete whatever project you paid for but for some reason is unable to inform you that's the case.

Maybe he's so busy working on the project that he's ignored for more than a year, in an industry he's admitted he's no longer interested in, that he can't even stop the criticism by taking five minutes to post a firm delivery date? I don't buy that.


Kthulhu wrote:


Maybe he's so busy working on the project that he's ignored for more than a year, in an industry he's admitted he's no longer interested in, that he can't even stop the criticism by taking five minutes to post a firm delivery date? I don't buy that.

I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as a firm delivery date in this industry. Stuff happens. Some people/companies get better at making realistic estimates than others.

That's me being Devil's advocate for 30 seconds. Apart from that nitpick, I agree with your viewpoint.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

I've removed a post. I know people's emotions run high when money is involved, and tempers get short when people feel ripped off. But let's not resort to personal attack, either at Nick Logue or other posters on this thread. Keep it civil, people.


Damon Griffin wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:


Maybe he's so busy working on the project that he's ignored for more than a year, in an industry he's admitted he's no longer interested in, that he can't even stop the criticism by taking five minutes to post a firm delivery date? I don't buy that.

I'm not convinced that there is such a thing as a firm delivery date in this industry. Stuff happens. Some people/companies get better at making realistic estimates than others.

That's me being Devil's advocate for 30 seconds. Apart from that nitpick, I agree with your viewpoint.

A realistic estimate would have been about a year from the posting date. Not 4 years. And yes, there is such a thing as a firm delivery date. Freelance writers could tell you that.


There is no personal crisis, or "being really busy," or anything else that is an excuse for Nick. He's been showing the same amount of diligence regarding Razor Coast, Sinister Adventures, and his one-time fans and customers, which is to say zero, for years now, during which he's carried on life as usual otherwise. There is no legitimiate reason, except that he just doesn't care any more, and considers leaving a bunch of unhappy, ripped-off people in his wake to be unimportant compared to whatever he wants to do with his next 15 minutes in his "new, real" life.


Ernest Mueller wrote:
There is no personal crisis, or "being really busy," or anything else that is an excuse for Nick. He's been showing the same amount of diligence regarding Razor Coast, Sinister Adventures, and his one-time fans and customers, which is to say zero, for years now, during which he's carried on life as usual otherwise. There is no legitimiate reason, except that he just doesn't care any more, and considers leaving a bunch of unhappy, ripped-off people in his wake to be unimportant compared to whatever he wants to do with his next 15 minutes in his "new, real" life.

Preach it!

Dark Archive

There is a latin phrase "res ipsa loquitur" which means literally "the thing speaks for itself".

The point is one cannot describe as "good faith" the conduct of a person who offered a pre-ordered product, take your money, and consistently fail to deliver the said product for several years now running, moreso, when you consider the lack of feedback from said person relative to demands for refund.

Would I call it "bad faith"? Sure I am.


I wonder if this has anything to do with why he hasn't written a Pathfinder adventure in awhile.


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Radavel wrote:

There is a latin phrase "res ipsa loquitur" which means literally "the thing speaks for itself".

The point is one cannot describe as "good faith" the conduct of a person who offered a pre-ordered product, take your money, and consistently fail to deliver the said product for several years now running, moreso, when you consider the lack of feedback from said person relative to demands for refund.

Would I call it "bad faith"? Sure I am.

There is another latin phrase I am reminded of. "Succurro EGO sum in incendia!" which means literally "Help! I am on fire!" I find it to be extremely useful in cases where you are in a latin-speaking country and are on fire.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32

Rocketmail1 wrote:


There is another latin phrase I am reminded of. "Succurro EGO sum in incendia!" which means literally "Help! I am on fire!" I find it to be extremely useful in cases where you are in a latin-speaking country and are on fire.

And you win the internet!


Rocketmail1 wrote:
There is another latin phrase I am reminded of. "Succurro EGO sum in incendia!" which means literally "Help! I am on fire!" I find it to be extremely useful in cases where you are in a latin-speaking country and are on fire.

Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur. ;)


Again this Nick Logue thing comes up. From a distance it looks to me like the guy ripped a bunch of people off so those people need to examine and eventually pursue their legal options. The guy stole and committed fraud plain and simple.

Now why this keeps popping up on the Paizo boards I'm not sure. Was Mr Logue a Paizo employee at one point? I know he wrote several AP chapters, and maybe some other stuff for Paizo, but if he did that as a freelancer I doubt Paizo can do anything about his fraudulent activity.

However if Mr. Logue ever does do freelance work for Paizo again I would strongly suggest a boycott of whatever he does until he has returned all the money he owes, at the very least.

Based on what I have read of this issue I would certainly support such a boycott. Beyond this I'm not sure what Paizo or even the Paizo community could do to help the victims here.


cibet44 wrote:

Again this Nick Logue thing comes up. From a distance it looks to me like the guy ripped a bunch of people off so those people need to examine and eventually pursue their legal options. The guy stole and committed fraud plain and simple.

Now why this keeps popping up on the Paizo boards I'm not sure. Was Mr Logue a Paizo employee at one point? I know he wrote several AP chapters, and maybe some other stuff for Paizo, but if he did that as a freelancer I doubt Paizo can do anything about his fraudulent activity.

However if Mr. Logue ever does do freelance work for Paizo again I would strongly suggest a boycott of whatever he does until he has returned all the money he owes, at the very least.

Based on what I have read of this issue I would certainly support such a boycott. Beyond this I'm not sure what Paizo or even the Paizo community could do to help the victims here.

Nic Logue wrote Hook Mountain Massacre, Hangmans Noose, Crown/Revenge of the Kobold King (and many other contributions to Dragon and Dungeon) for Paizo. He delivered product that people enjoyed and built something of a culty following here.

Threads announcing Sinister Adventures LLC, Indulgences, Ebon Shroud, Razor Coast, Anarchist Gamemaster Cookbook were all posted on these forums. This community was actively solicited.

I feel bad for everyone who has lost money as part of this. I nearly jumped in on Razor Coast. It sounded pretty neat. I'm glad I didn't.

Dark Archive

J.R. Farrington, Esq. wrote:


Threads announcing Sinister Adventures LLC, Indulgences, Ebon Shroud, Razor Coast, Anarchist Gamemaster Cookbook were all posted on these forums. This community was actively solicited.

I agree that solicitation was done actively.

Anyways, I sent him another email in case my first email was buried by other emails that have piled over the Easter break.

Grand Lodge

Well, I just sent another e-mail to Nick requesting a refund on my pre-ordered products.

We will see if it gets recieved or returned due to delivery failure won't we?

Good luck to all asking for refunds.

Dark Archive

still no reply from nick.


So, basically, in answer to the OP's question, signs point to "Yes."


Lyingbastard wrote:
So, basically, in answer to the OP's question, signs point to "Yes."

Nick Logue: Best Troll EVAR!

Dark Archive

Hehehe Nick finally replied to my email and will try to do a Paizo Gift Certificate for me.

Sovereign Court

Start of a new month.

We might infer that Nic is paying people from his paycheck, not from sequestered Sinister Adventures funds.


I just asked for a refund on the AGC, so I'll let people know if/when it goes through to give you guys an idea of how long the wait may be.

Scarab Sages

ThatEvilGuy wrote:
I just asked for a refund on the AGC, so I'll let people know if/when it goes through to give you guys an idea of how long the wait may be.

I asked for a refund for AGC on April 1 and just got the money yesterday, for whatever that's worth.

Grand Lodge

I've requested a refund several times now and have not even recieved an e-mail leting me know my request had been recieved.

Must be he is connected to THE SLOWEST system in the history of computers !!!! : )

Please if anyone hears anything let us all know.

Thanx

Dark Archive

Still waiting for my Paizo Gift Certificate here....

Liberty's Edge

I've received a refund for Ebon Shroud and Razor Coast. It took a little over two months to get, if that helps. I'm not sure if my case was typical or not, so your mileage may vary.

Best of luck to those of you who are still waiting for your money.

Grand Lodge

Glad someone has recieved a refund.
Still waiting for mine.

Been approx. 1 1/2 - 2 months now.

Hopefull for a response soon.

Grand Lodge

Well several months have come and gone and still no reply from the missing Nick.

Contaacted PayPal and filed a complaint and they are now trying to contact this non-person.

From what I understand he has to keep his account open there so, hopefuly those requesting refunds still have a chance to recieve them, although I recommand you do not hold your breath.

This man has bilked money from lots of people using these very boards and has now ruined his reputation. This is a very sad state of affairs as he is/ was a very talented writer.

Personally I will never purchase another product with his name on it. Having said this I would also add that this saddens me.


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I have said so before. I am now saying it again:

Get over it already. Either that, or hire a british lawyer to help you get your money back. If you don't do this, you are out of options, as has been pointed out to you guys.

There is nothing more that needs to be said.


Sissyl wrote:

I have said so before. I am now saying it again:

Get over it already. Either that, or hire a british lawyer to help you get your money back. If you don't do this, you are out of options, as has been pointed out to you guys.

There is nothing more that needs to be said.

This. SO much this. This is a horse that died a long time back and has been dug up and beaten over and over. I'm not sure what going over this every few days is supposed to accomplish.

Scarab Sages

knightnday wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

I have said so before. I am now saying it again:

Get over it already. Either that, or hire a british lawyer to help you get your money back. If you don't do this, you are out of options, as has been pointed out to you guys.

There is nothing more that needs to be said.

This. SO much this. This is a horse that died a long time back and has been dug up and beaten over and over. I'm not sure what going over this every few days is supposed to accomplish.

To be fair, it's been 3 months, not a few days.

I think if someone spent their money on a product that was promised them and it doesn't happen, then they deserve to get their money back. And I think it's reasonable for them to complain in the thread that was created to talk about this issue.

I think it's unfortunate that this situation happened, but I don't think the paying customers need to just get over it. Hopefully the refunds will come through for each customer.

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