The design goal of gunslingers...


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 2

Scarab Sages

What is it?

'Cause I really don't grock what's going on. I'm halfheartedly hoping some designer may deign to enlighten me. Topics that confuse me:

Misfires
Grit
Reloads

A part of me wonders if there isn't an ugly baby in the house but these rules are prohibitively bad.


Matthew Trent wrote:

What is it?

'Cause I really don't grock what's going on. I'm halfheartedly hoping some designer may deign to enlighten me. Topics that confuse me:

Misfires
Grit
Reloads

A part of me wonders if there isn't an ugly baby in the house but these rules are prohibitively bad.

It seems the goal in creating the gunslinger is to have a class that's somewhat indicative of every character Clint Eastwood ever played in a western. Not to mention this allows for industrialization and technology to create a more steampunk setting.

Also, round 2 seems to be much better than round 1.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Matthew Trent wrote:

Topics that confuse me:

Misfires
Grit
Reloads

Those rules are the problems with the Gunslinger. As well as the actual guns themselves.

I'm not happy with the concept of Misfires being introduced in the system. I'm not sure I will ever play with them. So more than likely, a standard house rule will be "ignore the misfire rules."

I'm also not a fan of Grit, and it's amazing low grit points (at minimum it should have been similar to Ki Pool or Rage/Bardic Music points.) The methods of recharging are difficult to gain, so in practice you don't often recharge.

Reloading is a problem, but a minor one. Full reloading on a full attack will put the gun near Longbow damage (I haven't redone the DPR from Round 1 to Round 2 yet) and without easy access to reloading the damage is always significantly lower.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
I'm not happy with the concept of Misfires being introduced in the system. I'm not sure I will ever play with them. So more than likely, a standard house rule will be "ignore the misfire rules."

So you'd better just give your players a bow, and say they got a gun with two cannons they can reload in a free action so they can use Manyshot.

You keep the touch AC without misfire, they will laugh at your monsters.
You throw out the misfire AND the touch AC, they'll just get a bow.


For anyone who cares, the gunslinger, ninja, and samurai are not posted on d20pfsrd.com for a specific reason - because I strongly dislike them and no one else has opted to post them yet either lol

Silver Crusade

Quote:
For anyone who cares, the gunslinger, ninja, and samurai are not posted on d20pfsrd.com for a specific reason - because I strongly dislike them and no one else has opted to post them yet either lol

You mean these ?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/playtests/paizo---ultimate-combat/gunslinger

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/playtests/paizo---ultimate-combat/ninja

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/playtests/paizo---ultimate-combat/samurai


Err.. oops. Forgot someone posted those. Ok, correction: There is a reason they are not linked on the main page or easily found elsewhere... or something like that... lol

Liberty's Edge

jreyst wrote:
Err.. oops. Forgot someone posted those. Ok, correction: There is a reason they are not linked on the main page or easily found elsewhere... or something like that... lol

With one minor fix (divine bond) I actually really like the samurai.

The gunslinger is fixable by simplifying (see other post) and would be something I would like to play.

The ninja...I am so frustrated with starting from rogue and not ranger..considering there is no second playtest I don't see playing that class much.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
Err.. oops. Forgot someone posted those. Ok, correction: There is a reason they are not linked on the main page or easily found elsewhere... or something like that... lolErr.. oops.

The magus isn't on the main page too. Maybe simply because they are beta content...


Even if/when the classes go final, unless someone else on the site posts them, it may be a while before they go up. I have a complete lack of interest in any of them, for multiple reasons. Since I generally am responsible for posting 95% of the non-monster content on the site we'll just have to see what the final results look like. As for now though, I'm completely "meh" about them (putting it politely.)

Silver Crusade

jreyst wrote:
Even if/when the classes go final, unless someone else on the site posts them, it may be a while before they go up. I have a complete lack of interest in any of them, for multiple reasons. Since I generally am responsible for posting 95% of the non-monster content on the site we'll just have to see what the final results look like. As for now though, I'm completely "meh" about them (putting it politely.)

I love the SRD, it's my main tool when helping the DM or another player to build a scenario or characters. And the fun part about it is that it isn't even in my native language. But to be sincere, there are a lot of entries in it that are way, way worse than the magus/gunslinger/ninja/samurai ones.

For matters of access and simplicity, I do hope the Ultimate Magic/Ultimate Combat options will come up in the SRD. :)

Edit :

Quote:
Which is sad because not every shares your point of view, I like your site mainly because I felt that you were trying to be complete in reguards with the ogl. You don't have to like everything that is created but having it there to use has always been a godsend.

I agree. I always had the feeling that the SRD goal was to be as complete as possible, and I enjoy greatly to see all the APG content that came up in it, so I would enjoy as much to see the Ultimate Magic/Combat rules following. It is a great work, and limiting it only to what you like could only hurt this great quality.


jreyst wrote:
Even if/when the classes go final, unless someone else on the site posts them, it may be a while before they go up. I have a complete lack of interest in any of them, for multiple reasons. Since I generally am responsible for posting 95% of the non-monster content on the site we'll just have to see what the final results look like. As for now though, I'm completely "meh" about them (putting it politely.)

Which is sad because not every shares your point of view, I like your site mainly because I felt that you were trying to be complete in reguards with the ogl. You don't have to like everything that is created but having it there to use has always been a godsend.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
jreyst wrote:
Even if/when the classes go final, unless someone else on the site posts them, it may be a while before they go up. I have a complete lack of interest in any of them, for multiple reasons. Since I generally am responsible for posting 95% of the non-monster content on the site we'll just have to see what the final results look like. As for now though, I'm completely "meh" about them (putting it politely.)

What else are you "meh" about putting on your site? I think this is important because your site seems to be about the most complete and easiest to use of the PF SRD sites and if that's going to change, it might affect my desire to use it and to encourage my players to use it.

-Skeld


Let me clarify: I'm not terribly enthusiastic about much of the content we have seen in the Ultimate books thus far. Content that I am enthusiastic about generally gets posted sooner than content I am less enthusiastic about. That does not mean the content will not get posted, only that I won't be in a massive hurry to do it. If another collaborator wishes to post it, I will be more than happy to let them. My point being simply that I'm not terribly interested in the content, think it could/should have been handled differently, but ultimately it will still almost certainly be on the site. Its just more a question of how fast. Now if one of you fine folks wants to step up and volunteer to update the existing gunslinger to the round 2 version, or make sure that the others are up-to-date (which I have no idea if they are or not) or even to volunteer to post the content once the books are finally released, I'd be more than happy to add some more folks to the team :)

@Skeld: I'm "meh" about a lot of things but the stuff still eventually gets posted. As others have rightly pointed out, I don't have to be a fan of the content to have it on the site. Heck I don't even read 90% of it (couldn't possibly) but it gets there anyway, which is why its a good thing we've got about 200 people signed on as collaborators. Just because I'm less than enthusiastic (ie, "meh") about something doesn't mean everyone else is. It'll get there, as I said, its just a matter of how fast.


Re: Jreyst: I hope at least the magus comes up quickly when UM comes out. I agree that the UC classes are a little "meh" and I won't be sad if it takes a while for them to pop up. The one I like most is the Samurai, even with the mount (Spiritual Bond? Really? What other abilities does it get that preclude even the most remote spiritual ability? None. That's ninja territory).

Re: OP: I asked this question in another thread. What exactly is the design goal of the Gunslinger? From a flavor perspective, I can see the whole "Clint Eastwood" vibe. Okay. But from a mechanical perspective? It's useless until level 7, at which point its overall goal seems to be "de-buff." Okay, that's fine. I like de-buff, but if that's the point of the class, give it earlier, dammit!

-The Beast

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Maxximilius wrote:

You keep the touch AC without misfire, they will laugh at your monsters.

You throw out the misfire AND the touch AC, they'll just get a bow.

I should have been more clear. There are three things I hate about the Gunslinger and will not be using:

  • Misfire
  • Touch AC without being a Touch Attack and the use of Touch attacks with more than one attack a round.
  • Grit is a limited resource.

As far as I'm concerned, Grit is an infinite resource, Touch AC is limited to one attack a round, and guns never misfire regardless of what Paizo says.


jreyst wrote:
For anyone who cares, the gunslinger, ninja, and samurai are not posted on d20pfsrd.com for a specific reason - because I strongly dislike them and no one else has opted to post them yet either lol

Sorry, but this sort of mindset damages the whole site. Why only options you like should appear?

If you don't like summon spells, those are removed by the spell list?

Seriously, the level of knee-jerkness in this thread is beyond of the attention level.

And sometimes from people I used to take seriously.


Kaiyanwang wrote:
jreyst wrote:
For anyone who cares, the gunslinger, ninja, and samurai are not posted on d20pfsrd.com for a specific reason - because I strongly dislike them and no one else has opted to post them yet either lol

Sorry, but this sort of mindset damages the whole site. Why only options you like should appear?

If you don't like summon spells, those are removed by the spell list?

Seriously, the level of knee-jerkness in this thread is beyond of the attention level.

And sometimes from people I used to take seriously.

jryest wrote:

Let me clarify: I'm not terribly enthusiastic about much of the content we have seen in the Ultimate books thus far. Content that I am enthusiastic about generally gets posted sooner than content I am less enthusiastic about. That does not mean the content will not get posted, only that I won't be in a massive hurry to do it. If another collaborator wishes to post it, I will be more than happy to let them. My point being simply that I'm not terribly interested in the content, think it could/should have been handled differently, but ultimately it will still almost certainly be on the site. Its just more a question of how fast. Now if one of you fine folks wants to step up and volunteer to update the existing gunslinger to the round 2 version, or make sure that the others are up-to-date (which I have no idea if they are or not) or even to volunteer to post the content once the books are finally released, I'd be more than happy to add some more folks to the team :)

@Skeld: I'm "meh" about a lot of things but the stuff still eventually gets posted. As others have rightly pointed out, I don't have to be a fan of the content to have it on the site. Heck I don't even read 90% of it (couldn't possibly) but it gets there anyway, which is why its a good thing we've got about 200 people signed on as collaborators. Just because I'm less than enthusiastic (ie, "meh") about something doesn't mean everyone else is. It'll get there, as I said, its just a matter of how fast.


Alright., I rushed the anwer... I apologize. I was wrong.

Still, I think that there is a lot of overreacting on the classes and how are made.


@Caedwyr: Thanks, saved me some time lol

Spoiler:
I need to learn to shut up.

The Exchange

Realmwalker wrote:


Which is sad because not every shares your point of view...

Yes, it is really sad that not everyone shares his point of view. Especially the people at Paizo who have control over the content. :(


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Touch AC without being a Touch Attack and the use of Touch attacks with more than one attack a round.

Pssst.

*Points at a certain iconic 2nd level spell.*

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