The books have pictures and work when the internet/website is down. Also, not every player has a laptop. $40 for a book vs. $400 for a good laptop.
And yet their sales seem to be doing very well. I think for most people, the convenience of having a paper copy at the table is too much to ignore. Plus, there are many places/times when you might want to look up a rule or ponder your next character idea when you don't have access to sit in front of the computer and a book is more convenient. Many people have jobs looking at a computer screen all day at work, and don't want to continue doing so when they get home. I would say Pathfinder's very existence is partly due to the number of people who prefer paper copies of the rules.
That seems counter-intuitive, you can get all the information legally off the computer to play so you never need the books, I mean, if they kept say the APG and other books off of it I could understand but, that's crazy to just offer it all up.
The PRD has the rules, it doesn't have the campaign setting, adventure paths, modules or support materials (card decks, flip-mats, etc...).
I believe Paizo does well for themselves on all that non-rule material.
If I recall correctly, the original point of the entire Pathfinder RPG was just to make available D&D 3.5ish rules so people would have the rules to keep playing Paizo's adventures.
Selling lots and lots of rulebooks may just be a pleasant bonus for them.
Creative Director
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For a lot of folks, it's easier to use a book to write an adventure or play the game. I'm in that category.
For a lot of folks, the Internet isn't really available during game play in a handy way, and in that case, having the book handy is better than all the free PRDs in the world.
Books are more enjoyable to look at and read for many people than are online/electronic formats.
That and more are great reasons to explain why, despite the fact that the rules are free online and the PDF is only ten bucks, we've soled a HELL of a lot of print books.
I see. I personally agree with the liking of the book, but man is my GM pissed.
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Creative Director
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I see. I personally agree with the liking of the book, but man is my GM pissed.
Why? Because he feels tricked into spending money on a book when he could have avoided spending any money and just used the PRD?
If you prefer using online resources to run games, then I could understand why that would be frustrating... but then again, we've never made secret the fact that the PRD is available for free.
And honestly, even if I were a GM who preferred using free online resources, I'd probably vote my confidence to a game system I love using for my games by spending money on a rulebook just as a thank-you to the publisher.
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You are perfectly able to play using just the information in the PRD. Paizo wants you to, because it's the gateway to buying books. That's why all those free PDFs are offered, to show you the goods and convince you to buy hard copies.
Remember, the first hit is free. ;)
This.
The PRD is great. I use it when I run all the time.
But I also have all the core books and just subscribed to the AP line.
Why?
Because we use the hell out of the book. I've got wi-fi in my house and everyone brings a laptop, but when you are trying to figure out what to build, or get idea, the book is the go to.
The PRD is like the index for the book. But they don't replace the books.
I see. I personally agree with the liking of the book, but man is my GM pissed.Why? Because he feels tricked into spending money on a book when he could have avoided spending any money and just used the PRD?
I think it's more along the lines of he spent all this money and anybody else can just grab this and play.
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I think it's more along the lines of he spent all this money and anybody else can just grab this and play.I see. I personally agree with the liking of the book, but man is my GM pissed.Why? Because he feels tricked into spending money on a book when he could have avoided spending any money and just used the PRD?
Show a new player the PRD and say "Let's go!"
Exactly.
The books, you need them.
After becoming disheartened with 4e (that's like 15 different, other threads so just leave it alone) I did some research into a lot of different systems. One of the ways I did research was through online reference documents. I came to Pathfinder because of the PRD, but as soon as I knew I'd make the switch to this system I bought the Core Rulebook. Digital is nice, when it's available, and it usually is for me when I game, but I'm not passing my laptop around to the players mid-game, and sometimes players like to look at things too. In addition, the appeal of turning those glossy, art-covered pages CANNOT be overlooked. There's absolutely something tactile-ly awesome about having a big heavy book like that in you lap and flipping reading the great stuff Paizo put into it. Plus the PRD is just the rules, it's not the campaign setting, it's not any adventure module. Once you know a company has such a great set of rules, you're more likely to buy their books, and once you've bought one of the books and realize the quality you're dealing with, you'll want to buy more of their goods. I just bought the Inner Sea Map Folio and it is "off the charts" (sorry for the pun) fantastic. Now I've pre-ordered the Inner Sea World Guide, because I can't wait to get my hands on all the great fluff and mechanics that I know await me in it. (While I do love to support Paizo, I usually order my books from Amazon, they're just a lot cheaper. Sure I'll get the book later than everyone who orders direct, but I'm saving darn near $20.00. Of course the $20.00 I save there, will more than likely get spent on some other Paizo book later on. :)
So... Why have a PRD you ask? Because the PRD led me to buy the Core Rulebook, the Map Folio, and the World Guide. (And I can guarantee I'm not a unique case in that respect.) I use the PRD all the time, but it's not the same as being able to pull out the great looking Core Rulebook and flipping through it.
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I think it's more along the lines of he spent all this money and anybody else can just grab this and play.
For me, that's one of its selling points. I started with Pathfinder this past December, and I've personally bought- oh, too many of the books. :P I don't expect my players to buy everything. They can certainly use my books and best of all I can point them to the PRD and other open resources without requiring a significant investment on their part. As I expected, a number of them have bought the books for their own varied reasons. I've been a fan of the open gaming concept, and I think it's worked quite well in this situation.
Support things you like/use/enjoy.
The PRD is freely available, and you can use it whenever.
If you like Paizo's stuff, and have any interest in them not going out of business, buy the books (or PDFs).
I own the Core Rulebook and the APG. I hardly ever open them, because the PRD (or the SRD) are easy to use and hyperlinked for my convenience. Then again, I play in online games mostly, and not at a table.
A few days ago I started getting my friend into the game, and it was easier to have a physical book to pass around.
Personally i prefer to have the books and would own all of them if i could but i cant afford them but all my friends have them, i use their books during gaming sessions and just to read and look at when we hang out but when i am home and want to write up a character or look at rules i use the PRD. i just borrowed my friends copy of the inner sea world guide and a lot of the information in there inst on the PRD as far as i know either way i would still prefer to read it from the book.
One additional reason to offer it up for free is that people who wants to get it for free WILL GET IT ANYWAY. I'm not in any way advocating piracy, but they as a company have to face the fact that it exists, and then they have the choices of either suing their fans or letting it go. Because even if pirates don't pay, they're surely fans or they wouldn't do it, and they might very well have friends who paid for the product, or themselves have bought some and pirated some. And I think a lot of those that pirate stuff like this, that is used for years rather than being like a movie that's over in two hours, just do it to check out and read up on the product - later on, they might very well become buyers of at least the baseline.
It's easy to see that music artists that has sued copyright violators have gotten a whole lot of bad rep from their paying fans too. So really, it seems paizo chose to, for the time at least, take the other road; not (AFAIK) pursue minor pirates but instead saying "hey, you can check the information here, no need to pirate it since it's free. You'll still like having the hard copy better; it's pretty and it's not THAT expensive".
So basically, it doesn't matter for those that want to play the game for free whether the PRD is there or not (unless they're scared s#&!less of the law, but I know few in my country are at least) because they will get it for free. What it does is provide easy reference material for those that might buy the book later, it makes online discussions about the game easier, and it gives a LOT of goodwill. The 3.5 SRD is really one of the reasons I chose to focus my gaming on D&D rather than one of the myriad other closed content games out there, and 4e not having stuff like that (AFAIK) is a big turnoff.
More and more material in different types of culture is released for free now; many new, upcoming music artists release most or all of their material for free on their websites and fee-less streaming sites are more successful than ever. That's probably the way to go, because like it or not, piracy is here to stay and has been for 50 years or so. Adjusting to it is better for the company itself than fighting it with teeth and claws is, not because "piracy is right" but because piracy exists whether right or not.
I hope this post isn't violating the boards policies (looked them through and it doesn't look like it); I want to specifically point out that I'm NOT advocating pirating of paizo's products and that I do in fact have the hard copies myself.
I too am on a tight budget. And so is my gaming group. We take turns buying different books and share. Though, all of us own the core book.
In an alternate group, a new player used the PRD to make her character and research the game. She was uncertain of investing in the game system. After three sessions, she bought the book as well. So the PRD didn't keep her from buying the book. In fact, it made the game more accessable for her thereby creating a new customer for the book.
Greg
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For a lot of folks, the Internet isn't really available during game play in a handy way, and in that case, having the book handy is better than all the free PRDs in the world.
My corebook is on its 2nd deployment. Of course I forgot my dice and had to get a few more sets. But it has been invaluable in reducing boredom. I have always preferred books to reading stuff on electronic media. I am happy to be surrounded with a pile of books creating stuff.
In my last group, 3 players used the PRD to create their charachters. 2 of them ended up buying the corebook and APG. The other just plays for something to do and can't wait to return to his 4e game. To each his own.
I make extensive use of d20pfsrd.com
Yet, look at my tags. I also use pdfs and the physical books.
I see. I personally agree with the liking of the book, but man is my GM pissed.Why? Because he feels tricked into spending money on a book when he could have avoided spending any money and just used the PRD?
If you prefer using online resources to run games, then I could understand why that would be frustrating... but then again, we've never made secret the fact that the PRD is available for free.
And honestly, even if I were a GM who preferred using free online resources, I'd probably vote my confidence to a game system I love using for my games by spending money on a rulebook just as a thank-you to the publisher.
At our table of four:
GM: Hardcopies: PHB, APG, MM1, MM2, Various adventure paths and support material,
some pdf material on an old desktop that stays in the office where we play in the dining room
Player1: Hardcopies: I think he has stuff at home, but I've never seen it.
Uses touch screen device to look up material. He also uses an electronic character generator. This is the alpha techie geek of our group.
Player2: Hardcopies:PHB, APG, MM1, MM2, Various adventure paths and support material, some pdf material on an old desktop that is at his house.
Me: Hardcopies: PHB, APG, MM1, MM2, Condition cards, a few modules, one or two third pary items.
Too many PDF's to name on my computer at home. Plus I have an Ipad and Iphone/Ipad app that has most PHB,APG,MM1 material.
To me pathfinder products are like crack and/or pokemon. I want them all in PDF, but if I really like the product I want a hardcopy. As Wizardry is my favorite, I'm absolutely gagging to get the Ultimate Magic Guide.
Moral of the story: Everyone has preferences, but most gamer like paper books for one reason or another. If nothing else it's nostalgia/habit for the "older" generation, but most of us are geeks so we also like tech.
If it makes your GM feel better, I bought 2 copies of the Core Book so we'll say I bought your copy so Paizo didn't lose a sale. I will be buying a second copy of the APG as well.
One thing I like to do is buy the first set of dice and Core Book for new players. This way they don't have to invest in a game that they don't know if they will like. If they enjoy it, then they got a nice gift. If not, they can keep it or give it back. I have had only 1 person give it back. I've been doing this since the early 90s with 2nd Edition.
I use the PRD when running the game because I find it easy to search. When I am just looking for a read or if I am a player, I find the actual book better. I don't think I would like a print out of the PRD. I would be spending more time trying to keep the pages from tearing out of the binder. Sure, there are ways to minimize that but then I am spending more time and/or money. It's just easier to buy the book which is going to last longer anyway. And it looks better on my shelf.
I think it's more along the lines of he spent all this money and anybody else can just grab this and play.I see. I personally agree with the liking of the book, but man is my GM pissed.Why? Because he feels tricked into spending money on a book when he could have avoided spending any money and just used the PRD?
Not everyone is a freeloader, though.
It's not that Pathfinder is the only game that you can't get for free.
In fact, you can get them all for free. It might not be legal, but that doesn't seem to stop a lot of people.
And Paizo seems to be really well despite the fact that they put all their core rules into the net to use totally legally. In fact, Pathfinder seems to be tied with 4e as best-selling RPG.
And other games, like Eclipse Phase, where you can get the whole PDF (including layout and pictures and everything) totally free online (they use the Creative Commons license), seem to sell as well.
I buy the books even though I could get the stuff for free because I prefer to have an actual book. I do use the PDFs AND the PRD, but for some things, you just can't beat a book. Maybe that will change some day when devices that display PDFs become an acceptable alternative, but that day is not there yet.
Before your GM jumps off a sidewalk or throws himself behind a train, tell him he can always sell the books he "foolishly" bought and use the PRD alone.
Warn him, though, that he may find that books are useful for something after all...
Before your GM jumps off a sidewalk or throws himself behind a train, tell him he can always sell the books he "foolishly" bought and use the PRD alone.
Warn him, though, that he may find that books are useful for something after all...
Yes... PRD (how much wonderful it wasn't) lacks the primary advantage of physical copy of hardbound rulebook: you can't use it to bash players' heads for their stupidity.
And publishing things for free on internet is actual business model tried by Baen Books and some creators and seems to work quite fine (i.e. their sales does not plummet down, they are enjoying enough profit to continue that practice, actually).
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The very fact that I could "test drive" the system for "free" was what made me spend thousands of dollars on their crac.... product.
The books and the art in them are just fantastic, and the AP's, while extremely numerous and impossible for me to consume all that I buy... are very much worth it.
That said, do I usually have a laptop open when I am playing/Gm'ing to aid in looking some stuff up? Yes.
Do I also have the books on hand so that I don't have to share my bloody computer with everyone at the table? Yes.
Do I like the books so that I can lend them out to friends to get them addicted? Yes.
Do I like the books so that we can play at the cottage on special gaming weekends? Yes.
In a zombie apocalypse, will the internetz still work and help me bash in a zombie's skull? I DON'T THINK SO!
Do I also have the books on hand so that I don't have to share my bloody computer with everyone at the table? Yes.[...]
In a zombie apocalypse, will the internetz still work and help me bash in a zombie's skull? I DON'T THINK SO!
How did the computer get bloody unless you used it to bash in a zombie's skull?
In the group I play with, every player has a laptop open (6 players + GM = lot of cpu power lol). The GM, myself, and at least one other player, have copies of very many of the print books. The GM finds that it is often much more convenient to have a book like the Bestiary (1 or 2) open and in his hands as opposed to using web resources. He uses web resources when planning the session, and they're open on his laptop, but the ability to walk around a table with book in hand and show the players the picture of what they see, is very helpful. I have no issues with Paizo's business model and can certainly attest that its 100% because of their openness to the fans, as well as their full-on embrace of the OGL that I and my group are 100% Pathfinder players. Not to start anything, but we had been playing 4E for a while, and a couple of the players took longer than others, but we've all now firmly moved into the PFRPG camp and none of us has opened a 4E book (or played a 4E game) in months and its because of Paizo's attitudes towards the PRD and open gaming in general.
I use the PRD almost exclusively when I prepare my sessions. Five days out of the week my books sit on shelves, but I can't imagine playing without books at the table. My group (total of 7) has 3 Core books and it always seems like we could use 1 or 2 more, particularly when it's time to level.
I'm really happy to see stuff like the APG content included. Seems to me like Paizo is going above and beyond with the PRD.
I use the PRD a lot in my games. I have all the books though and few in PDF form too. I find when prepping for a game the online site is so convenient. The PDF is nice but there is something about opening multiple tabs when creating a Barbarian Half Dragon Orc. I can have a TAB for the Barbarian Class, The Orc monster and Half dragon Template.
Now the books I find more useful a the gaming table and I anywhere when I'm not at my computer.
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I suppose I use d20pfsrd pretty much exclusively for the rules and then refer to the pdfs for all of the campaign settings books and adventure modules. Have every pathfinder book sitting in storage on shelf behind, most of them never actually opened and read even once.
Run the games using Maptool (VTT software) and d20pfsrd. Find d20pfsrd much nicer than using books as gives me a single source for all rules rather than juggling multiple books.
Will usually also print off a copy of whichever adventure I am running at the time to read and famaliarize self with prior to sessions.
When I have sufficient time all the monster/encounter/room information from the adventure paths is entered into Maptool for play so I don't ever really need to refer back to AP pdf or printed hardcopy.
It was a lot more pain then it should have been simply because I had to make "copies" of the PDF to have different sections of a "book" easily viewable. When you have 10 pdf's open even a brand new laptop can start slowing down a bit, or the PDF program would freeze leaving me keeping my players hanging for minutes on end.
Not sure which PDF reader you use, but there may be an option in the settings to open the same PDF in a separate window without having to make a copy of it. I do this frequently in Foxit.
Not sure which PDF reader you use, but there may be an option in the settings to open the same PDF in a separate window without having to make a copy of it. I do this frequently in Foxit.
Could you elaborate, please? I use Foxit as well, but don't know how to do that.
Could you elaborate, please? I use Foxit as well, but don't know how to do that.
Not sure which PDF reader you use, but there may be an option in the settings to open the same PDF in a separate window without having to make a copy of it. I do this frequently in Foxit.
Sure, in the top menu go to Tools>Preferences>Documents> and check the "Allow Multiple Instances" check-box.
Sure, in the top menu go to Tools>Preferences>Documents> and check the "Allow Multiple Instances" check-box.Could you elaborate, please? I use Foxit as well, but don't know how to do that.
Not sure which PDF reader you use, but there may be an option in the settings to open the same PDF in a separate window without having to make a copy of it. I do this frequently in Foxit.
Sweet. Thanks.
I love my books for when I'm doing some casual reading or when we are gaming (I can flip much faster than I can do an online search--and it's easier reading). However, I also love that I can take all of my PDFs and the PRD on my laptop into town on various errands/trips and still be able to look up the info any time I want (such as when an idea strikes and I have to look it up to confirm).
Without the readily accessible PRD, there likely wouldn't be a Ravingdork like you now know.
In any case, I make a point of buying every hardback AND their respective PDFs to show my support for the wonderful gaming company that is Paizo.
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Creative Director
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One huge advantage that books have over PDFs is that the device you use to read them is much less expensive. As in, free (unless, like me, you have to buy glasses).
When I'm writing an adventure or preparing for a game, I generally have my core rulebook, one or two or more monster books, the Inner Sea World Guide, and a few other books open at various times as I build stat blocks or cross-reference rules and canon and the like to get it all right. I use my computer to actually write the stuff, which means I've got my word processer open, along with an internet browser for additional research, and perhaps Excel as well to do calculations. That makes for a pretty cluttered computer desktop.
Having the books in book form allows me to have all those books open all over the table around me and lets me reference both as the interact really quickly. Doing that with PDFs would require multiple monitors or electronic readers... and that gets expensive and awkward.
One huge advantage that books have over PDFs is that the device you use to read them is much less expensive. As in, free (unless, like me, you have to buy glasses).
Yeah, gotta love the fact that the gold ol' Mark 1 is included in the stock package :)
Anyway, with my gaming group the PRD has been a lifesaver for me. In my last game I ran in 3.5 I was the only person at the table with ANY of the books and we didn't know about the SRD... Right now I'm running my first Pathfinder campaign after giving up on 4E, so we've only got one set of books around the table, but at least I can get people to level up at home between sessions...
Right now I'm running Kingmaker with the AP, the Bestiary, and my Iphone with the PRD app in front of me. The Core Rules and APG float around the table as needed. It works reasonably well, but I'll either need to get another copy of the core rules or an Ipad and the PDFs for things to really run smoothly.
One thing I've been finding interesting though with both the books and the PRD at the table is that some things are easier to look up in one, some in the other... For specifics things the PRD usually wins, but for finding "that table I think it was on" or "I know I get a bonus... dang what was the name of that feature..." the books win hands down.
The D20SRD released by Wizards as part of the D&D 3.0 release was kind of an experiment: Could a company give it's ruleset away, let third-party publishers use it and still be in business?
The answer was: Yes, that's perfectly possible. And as the Pathfinder RPG builds heavily on the (OGC) content released by Wizards, I would think that it's practically required to be open as well.
If Paizo had tried to "close" the complete Pathfinder RPG rules and not permit further usage or distribution, then I would think that Wizards easily could have forced Paizo to open up the (sizable) bits of Pathfinder rules that are equivalent with 3.5.
That's my interpretation on why the PRD needs to exist - it's certainly not there to annoy regular book-buying customers.
As an added bonus, it describes the basis on which third party publishers are allowed to build - and create exciting Pathfinder-compatible materials.
/ Henning