Game tonight- help appreciated: Spring Attack Question


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I'm a little confused by the wording of some combat feats.

Am I correct in saying the following:

Spring attack can NOT be used with:

Vital Strike, Sunder, Overhand Chop, or any other feat/ability that calls for an ATTACK ACTION.

Spring attack may be used with:

Trip, or other feats/abilities that state it is being done in place of a melee attack.

The defining factor here is if an attack action (a standard action) is required, it cannot be combined with a full-round spring attack action. Is this a correct interpretation of the rules?

Thanks forum.

J

Shadow Lodge

JeremyK wrote:

I'm a little confused by the wording of some combat feats.

Am I correct in saying the following:

Spring attack can NOT be used with:

Vital Strike, Sunder, Overhand Chop, or any other feat/ability that calls for an ATTACK ACTION.

Spring attack may be used with:

Trip, or other feats/abilities that state it is being done in place of a melee attack.

The defining factor here is if an attack action (a standard action) is required, it cannot be combined with a full-round spring attack action. Is this a correct interpretation of the rules?

Thanks forum.

J

This is correct for vital strike, cleave, and others that call out only the attack action or standard actions.

Overhead chop seems to be the exception of things calling out the attack action. It is allowed to be used when you make one attack, and gives both the attack action and a charge as examples. If it were only the attack action allowed it would not be usable on a charge.

Sunder, Trip, Disarm, and other CMB attacks can be used (though Spring Attack Grapple, not so useful). You can even make multiple attempts at these a round if you have multiple attacks.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Alorha wrote:
JeremyK wrote:

I'm a little confused by the wording of some combat feats.

Am I correct in saying the following:

Spring attack can NOT be used with:

Vital Strike, Sunder, Overhand Chop, or any other feat/ability that calls for an ATTACK ACTION.

Spring attack may be used with:

Trip, or other feats/abilities that state it is being done in place of a melee attack.

The defining factor here is if an attack action (a standard action) is required, it cannot be combined with a full-round spring attack action. Is this a correct interpretation of the rules?

Thanks forum.

J

This is correct for vital strike, cleave, and others that call out only the attack action or standard actions.

Overhead chop seems to be the exception of things calling out the attack action. It is allowed to be used when you make one attack, and gives both the attack action and a charge as examples. If it were only the attack action allowed it would not be usable on a charge.

Sunder, Trip, Disarm, and other CMB attacks can be used (though Spring Attack Grapple, not so useful). You can even make multiple attempts at these a round if you have multiple attacks.

Hmmm. This gets tricky. Sunder appears to use similar wording as vital strike. They both call for the use of an attack action. I would assume then, both are illegal on a spring attack.

Trip however uses different wording, noting that it replaces a melee attack.

I'm still a little fuzzy. Also, I see your point about Over Hand chop being permitted on a Charge or when you take an attack action... however, because it is given the exception of being used on a charge, does this necessarily mean it is usable with spring attack as well?

Shadow Lodge

JeremyK wrote:


Hmmm. This gets tricky. Sunder appears to use similar wording as vital strike. They both call for the use of an attack action. I would assume then, both are illegal on a spring attack.
Sunder wrote:
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

So that last bit makes it legit on a spring attack.

JeremyK wrote:


I'm still a little fuzzy. Also, I see your point about Over Hand chop being permitted on a Charge or when you take an attack action... however, because it is given the exception of being used on a charge, does this necessarily mean it is usable with spring attack as well?
Overhand Chop wrote:


At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.

This wording is confusing, but as it only lists two options, RAW it does not work on Spring Attack. I get the feeling they just left one option out, but there's no indication that the list is anything but exclusive.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Alorha wrote:
JeremyK wrote:


Hmmm. This gets tricky. Sunder appears to use similar wording as vital strike. They both call for the use of an attack action. I would assume then, both are illegal on a spring attack.
Sunder wrote:
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

So that last bit makes it legit on a spring attack.

JeremyK wrote:


I'm still a little fuzzy. Also, I see your point about Over Hand chop being permitted on a Charge or when you take an attack action... however, because it is given the exception of being used on a charge, does this necessarily mean it is usable with spring attack as well?
Overhand Chop wrote:


At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.

This wording is confusing, but as it only lists two options, RAW it does not work on Spring Attack. I get the feeling they just left one option out, but there's no indication that the list is anything but exclusive.

Sunder wrote:
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

The part that leaves me unsure about sunder is the wording: "as part of an attack action." My understanding is that an attack action is using a standard action per the wording on pg 182 of the core rules. If one is using a spring attack, they are using a full-round action to do a spring attack action, not an attack action. Am I off base here?

Shadow Lodge

JeremyK wrote:


The part that leaves me unsure about sunder is the wording: "as part of an attack action." My understanding is that an attack action is using a standard action per the wording on pg 182 of the core rules. If one is using a spring attack, they are using a full-round action to do a spring attack action, not an attack action. Am I off base here?

Hmm... you're right. My brain inserted an "or." I'm not sure how. Sunder, RAW, only once per round, and takes a standard action. Good catch.


Alorha wrote:
Sunder, Trip, Disarm, and other CMB attacks can be used (though Spring Attack Grapple, not so useful). You can even make multiple attempts at these a round if you have multiple attacks.

No grappling on a Spring Attack, since Grapple requires a standard action. Also, no Bull Rush, since it requires a standard action or a Charge, which is full-round action of its own. I'm a bit iffy on Overrun, since "during your move" is kind of vague; I could be convinced either way.

Alorha wrote:
JeremyK wrote:


The part that leaves me unsure about sunder is the wording: "as part of an attack action." My understanding is that an attack action is using a standard action per the wording on pg 182 of the core rules. If one is using a spring attack, they are using a full-round action to do a spring attack action, not an attack action. Am I off base here?
Hmm... you're right. My brain inserted an "or." I'm not sure how. Sunder, RAW, only once per round, and takes a standard action. Good catch.

I disagree. If it says the attack action, then it can only be referring to Attack as a standard action. However, an attack action could be Attack, Full Attack, Spring Attack, and any other action that is an attack, unless specified otherwise. They're just saying that you can't use Sunder on an AoO.

Shadow Lodge

SciVo wrote:


No grappling on a Spring Attack, since Grapple requires a standard action. Also, no Bull Rush, since it requires a standard action or a Charge, which is full-round action of its own. I'm a bit iffy on Overrun, since "during your move" is kind of vague; I could be convinced either way.

You're right about grapple. I think I was still operating on 3.5 where you could try for the grapple touch attack once per iterative attack. Not that you'd do it even if you could, heh.

SciVo wrote:


I disagree. If it says the attack action, then it can only be referring to Attack as a standard action. However, an attack action could be Attack, Full-Attack, Spring Attack, and any other action that is an attack, unless specified otherwise. They're just saying that you can't use Sunder on an AoO.

They really need to stop using the phrase "attack action." It messes things up. Vital Strike calls out the attack action specifically, though. The official stance is that an attack action is a standard action. If something calls out the attack action, you use a standard action. I've ranted elsewhere about disliking this, but that's the RAW as clarified.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:


As of the current rules, you cannot use Vital Strike as part of a charge. Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.

Here's that thread.


Alorha wrote:
SciVo wrote:


I disagree. If it says the attack action, then it can only be referring to Attack as a standard action. However, an attack action could be Attack, Full-Attack, Spring Attack, and any other action that is an attack, unless specified otherwise. They're just saying that you can't use Sunder on an AoO.

They really need to stop using the phrase "attack action." It messes things up. Vital Strike calls out the attack action specifically, though. The official stance is that an attack action is a standard action. If something calls out the attack action, you use a standard action. I've ranted elsewhere about disliking this, but that's the RAW as clarified.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:


As of the current rules, you cannot use Vital Strike as part of a charge. Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.
Here's that thread.

Argh! I so wish that he had said that "Vital Strike is a modification to the attack action." I liked my interpretation, even though I hate that it hinges on whether the article is definite or indefinite; but that's the English language for ya. Precision matters.

Shadow Lodge

SciVo wrote:


Argh! I so wish that he had said that "Vital Strike is a modification to the attack action." I liked my interpretation, even though I hate that it hinges on whether the article is definite or indefinite; but that's the English language for ya. Precision matters.

For the record, I like your interpretation from a house rule perspective. I've ranted on my problems with the vital strike (and now sunder) treatment elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here.


Alorha wrote:
SciVo wrote:


Argh! I so wish that he had said that "Vital Strike is a modification to the attack action." I liked my interpretation, even though I hate that it hinges on whether the article is definite or indefinite; but that's the English language for ya. Precision matters.
For the record, I like your interpretation from a house rule perspective. I've ranted on my problems with the vital strike (and now sunder) treatment elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here.

Well, I don't want to get you going about Vital Strike, then. ;) So, I'll just say that it doesn't make any sense for Sunder to only apply to an attack as the standard action, since you have to make a normal attack roll anyway, with all the same penalties as any other off-hand or extra attack would have.


Sunder does say "as part of", not "as an". I'd allow it instead of a regular attack, the same way trip works.

Shadow Lodge

Bobson wrote:
Sunder does say "as part of", not "as an". I'd allow it instead of a regular attack, the same way trip works.
Trip wrote:


You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack.
Sunder wrote:


You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.

You can simply replace an attack with trip, but sunder doesn't say that. You have do be doing the attack action for sunder. Then you replace the attack that comes along with that.

You cannot sunder unless you take the attack action, and the official stance is that the attack action is a standard action.
RAW, sunder is a standard action.

This also means you can't sunder and vital strike.

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