FEAT: Dex based damage


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I would have sworn, at one time I had seen a feat allowing a person to use their dex as a damage bonus for finessable weapons.

Does anyone recall what it was called, and what resource (3.x or PF) it may be found?


There was a feat in Tome of Battle - Book of Nine Swords, do not recall exactly what the feat was called, but it allowed you to deal your dexterity modifier as bonus damage on weapons of the (shadow ?) discipline.

Sovereign Court

Pathos wrote:

I would have sworn, at one time I had seen a feat allowing a person to use their dex as a damage bonus for finessable weapons.

Does anyone recall what it was called, and what resource (3.x or PF) it may be found?

There is a rather limited version of this with Dervish Dance.


Hmmm.. thanks, that is a possibility, though it would require further multi-classing I can't quite afford.

Thanks for the reply though. :o)


Mok wrote:
Pathos wrote:

I would have sworn, at one time I had seen a feat allowing a person to use their dex as a damage bonus for finessable weapons.

Does anyone recall what it was called, and what resource (3.x or PF) it may be found?

There is a rather limited version of this with Dervish Dance.

Another good find.. many thanks.


Pathos wrote:

Hmmm.. thanks, that is a possibility, though it would require further multi-classing I can't quite afford.

Thanks for the reply though. :o)

I do not think it actually required you to multi-class, though it might require you to take two feats to learn a stance and a manouever if I recall correctly, which isn't necesarily a bad thing.

Champion of Corelon in races of the wild is a Prc granting dex modifier on damage.


There was a feat called Extra Finesse published in the 3.5 compatable Swashbuckling setting, if I am not mistaken. I do not believe it is OGL.

Otherwise, besides dervish dance, I know of no feat in print that allows for dex to damage.

Currently, I have a similar feat in my homebrew.

feat:

Insightful Strike
Requirements: BAB +1; Weapon Finesse
Benefit: When using a weapon that you can use weapon finesse with, you may use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier to determine damage. This damage reflects striking vital parts of your opponents body. Creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attack are also immune to this extra damage.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Pathos wrote:

I would have sworn, at one time I had seen a feat allowing a person to use their dex as a damage bonus for finessable weapons.

Does anyone recall what it was called, and what resource (3.x or PF) it may be found?

There is a Feat called Superior Finesse in the book "Feats" by AEG that does just that. Although the book is for 3.0.

RD


There is a feat in my houserules called Weapon Finesse that does that. But in my houserules, you can do the dex to attacks thing without a feat.


Thanks for the responses guys... I stretched my "google-foo" some and was able to come up with quite a few 3rd-party references to such a feat also.

Gonna have to talk to my DM on this one I think. The gamut for prerequisites and effects are all over the place.


KaeYoss wrote:
There is a feat in my houserules called Weapon Finesse that does that. But in my houserules, you can do the dex to attacks thing without a feat.

Is there also a feat in your houserules that allows strength to AC? or strength to ranged attack rolls? Cause otherwise I'm not seeing the balance....


Shadow_of_death wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
There is a feat in my houserules called Weapon Finesse that does that. But in my houserules, you can do the dex to attacks thing without a feat.
Is there also a feat in your houserules that allows strength to AC? or strength to ranged attack rolls? Cause otherwise I'm not seeing the balance....

This is the reason I'm just not comfortable with Dex to Damage feats. I'm not convinced that two feats is a balanced price for tying Hit, Damage, AC, and Reflex saves all to Dex, leaving only carrying capacity tied to Str. And a 2,000 gp item obviates the need for that.

X to Y feats are tend to mess with game balance. You have to be very careful when applying them.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Shadow_of_death wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
There is a feat in my houserules called Weapon Finesse that does that. But in my houserules, you can do the dex to attacks thing without a feat.
Is there also a feat in your houserules that allows strength to AC? or strength to ranged attack rolls? Cause otherwise I'm not seeing the balance....

This is the reason I'm just not comfortable with Dex to Damage feats. I'm not convinced that two feats is a balanced price for tying Hit, Damage, AC, and Reflex saves all to Dex, leaving only carrying capacity tied to Str. And a 2,000 gp item obviates the need for that.

X to Y feats are tend to mess with game balance. You have to be very careful when applying them.

Agreed. I might consider an int-to-damage feat, or a dex-to-damage feat that specifically couldn't be used with finesse, but never something that moved both features of strength onto the same attribute.


Bobson wrote:


Agreed. I might consider an int-to-damage feat...

But...but...then the wizards would all pick up swords and the fighters wouldn't have anything to do!

j/k

I'm hoping that something similar will be in UM or UC to help out the Magus with his/her MAD.

Shadow Lodge

It's not Dex to damage but the Piranha Strike from Sargava: The Lost Colony lets you get full Power Attack when using light weapons. Definitely a must have for most weapon finesse fighters.


0gre wrote:
It's not Dex to damage but the Piranha Strike from Sargava: The Lost Colony lets you get full Power Attack when using light weapons. Definitely a must have for most weapon finesse fighters.

Unlike 3.5, you can use Power Attack with light weapons in Pathfinder.

Shadow Lodge

Maerimydra wrote:
0gre wrote:
It's not Dex to damage but the Piranha Strike from Sargava: The Lost Colony lets you get full Power Attack when using light weapons. Definitely a must have for most weapon finesse fighters.
Unlike 3.5, you can use Power Attack with light weapons in Pathfinder.

I suppose you can if you have the 13 Strength qualify for Power Attack.


0gre wrote:
Maerimydra wrote:
0gre wrote:
It's not Dex to damage but the Piranha Strike from Sargava: The Lost Colony lets you get full Power Attack when using light weapons. Definitely a must have for most weapon finesse fighters.
Unlike 3.5, you can use Power Attack with light weapons in Pathfinder.
I suppose you can if you have the 13 Strength qualify for Power Attack.

And I hope you have at least 13 Strength if you're playing a melee character. :)


Quantum Steve wrote:
Shadow_of_death wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:
There is a feat in my houserules called Weapon Finesse that does that. But in my houserules, you can do the dex to attacks thing without a feat.
Is there also a feat in your houserules that allows strength to AC? or strength to ranged attack rolls? Cause otherwise I'm not seeing the balance....

This is the reason I'm just not comfortable with Dex to Damage feats. I'm not convinced that two feats is a balanced price for tying Hit, Damage, AC, and Reflex saves all to Dex, leaving only carrying capacity tied to Str. And a 2,000 gp item obviates the need for that.

X to Y feats are tend to mess with game balance. You have to be very careful when applying them.

While that is true, strength is still the best way to go if you want to do really much damage: Weapon Finesse (my version that lets you get dex to damage) is only for finesse weapons, which can limit you in the damage department a bit, and you don't get 1.5x dex for wielding a weapon two-handed (didn't mention that).

I feel it helps those who can't afford both dex and str (and really need dex), but the pure warriors will still go with str (maybe in addition to dex).


Not getting that extra .5 Str effects exactly 2 finessable weapons, only one of which is worth the EWP.


0gre wrote:
It's not Dex to damage but the Piranha Strike from Sargava: The Lost Colony lets you get full Power Attack when using light weapons. Definitely a must have for most weapon finesse fighters.

That will work quite nicely also.


There was a feat called 'Perfect Strike' that allowed Dex instead of Strength. It was in the book 'Plot and Poison', I don't remember who made it though. It was 3.0 ish


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This would be something I would LOVE to see in Ultimate Combat. A "Surgical Strike" DEX-for-damage feat. I love it. Developers, are you reading this? :-)


The problem is that Dexterity is already a GOD stat, with bonus to Save, Dex, range to hit, opening up feats, and being the Key stat for a number of skills.

Giving it even more utility potentially a really bad thing. And I say this as someone who would love to see finesse become more powerful.


Zombieneighbours wrote:

The problem is that Dexterity is already a GOD stat, with bonus to Save, Dex, range to hit, opening up feats, and being the Key stat for a number of skills.

Giving it even more utility potentially a really bad thing. And I say this as someone who would love to see finesse become more powerful.

yeah, my feeling exaclty. Maybe the best compromise would be specifi archetypes for Fighter and Rogues (and Monks and Rangers maybe).. lkinda like the Crossbow Fighter.

Another idea could be having Agile Maneuvers and Weapon finesse as prereqs. Very annoying and feat intensive, I admit it.


Quantum Steve wrote:

This is the reason I'm just not comfortable with Dex to Damage feats. I'm not convinced that two feats is a balanced price for tying Hit, Damage, AC, and Reflex saves all to Dex, leaving only carrying capacity tied to Str. And a 2,000 gp item obviates the need for that.

X to Y feats are tend to mess with game balance. You have to be very careful when applying them.

If you read the description for Dervish Dance, you can't have a shield or anything else in your offhand, which does place a limit on your bonus. On top of that, the way armor is scaled with max dex AC caps you'll never fully catch up with fully armored characters.

As an example (removing a lot of variables and just comparing armor and dex AC)at level 10:

20 str fighter with longsword, full plate, 9 armor AC and (via armor training 2) 3 AC from dex, greater shield focus and large shield.
1d8+5 damage, 26 AC. (not counting weapon specialization etc)

26 str fighter with longsword, full plate, 9 armor AC and (via armor training 2) 3 AC from dex, greater shield focus and large shield.
1d8+8 damage, 26 AC. (not counting weapon specialization etc)

20 str fighter with 2H sword, full plate, 9 armor AC and (via armor training 2) 3 AC from dex.
2d6+7 damage, 22 AC

26 str fighter with 2H sword, full plate, 9 armor AC and (via armor training 2) 3 AC from dex.
2d6+12 damage, 22 AC

20 dex fighter with scimitar, chain shirt, 4 armor AC and (via armor training 2) 5 AC via dex.
1d6+5 damage, 19 AC

26 dex fighter with scimitar, studded leather, 3 armor AC and (via armor training 2) 7 AC via dex.
1d6+8 damage, 20 AC

26 dex fighter with scimitar, breastplate, 6 armor AC and (via armor training 2) 5 AC via dex.
1d6+8 damage, 21 AC

Now of course magic items give more AC, feats give more damage, but this would apply equally to any build (though mithril armor would allow 2 more dex bonus where the dex fighter might catch up to the 2H in AC, unless the 2H fighter uses a +dex item as well). The classes that usually go the dex route don't even get armor training, so that sets them back 2 more points on the dex cap of armors. And you're still looking at a tax of 2 feats and 2 ranks, for an ability that only works with 1 specific weapon.


Zombieneighbours wrote:
The problem is that Dexterity is already a GOD stat, with bonus to Save, Dex, range to hit, opening up feats, and being the Key stat for a number of skills. Giving it even more utility potentially a really bad thing. And I say this as someone who would love to see finesse become more powerful.

Total agreement. That's why I stole ranged attacks from Dex and gave them to Wis (and then made Will saves Cha-dependent instead of Wis dependent). Only after chipping away at Dex did I feel good about scaling Weapon Finesse to include damage at BAB +6.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
The problem is that Dexterity is already a GOD stat, with bonus to Save, Dex, range to hit, opening up feats, and being the Key stat for a number of skills. Giving it even more utility potentially a really bad thing. And I say this as someone who would love to see finesse become more powerful.
Total agreement. That's why I stole ranged attacks from Dex and gave them to Wis (and then made Will saves Cha-dependent instead of Wis dependent). Only after chipping away at Dex did I feel good about scaling Weapon Finesse to include damage at BAB +6.

Where can I find a full collection of your house rules by the way?


Zombieneighbours wrote:
Where can I find a full collection of your house rules by the way?

TOZ and Cyz were awesome enough to host the v. 2.0 documents: LINK HERE.


Lythe Featherblade wrote:


If you read the description for Dervish Dance, you can't have a shield or anything else in your offhand, which does place a limit on your bonus. On top of that, the way armor is scaled with max dex AC caps you'll never fully catch up with fully armored characters.

Now of course magic items give more AC, feats give more damage, but this would apply equally to any build (though mithril armor would allow 2 more dex bonus where the dex fighter might catch up to the 2H in AC, unless the 2H fighter uses a +dex item as well). The classes that usually go the dex route don't even get armor training, so that sets them back 2 more points on the dex cap of armors. And you're still looking at a tax of 2 feats and 2 ranks, for an ability that only works with 1 specific weapon.

You can't discount mithral armor when comparing AC like this because high dex fighters depend on every last extra max dex they can fit on their armor. A Mithral Chain Shirt has the same max AC as full plate and costs less. You could make the full plate mithral too, but that's an extra 8,000gp which could be spent on other AC granting items. It would be hard for the full plate wearer to pull ahead before high levels when there are no more AC items left to buy.

The problem with finesse fighters is that they have to keep dex high, so other stats suffer. If you make Str a dump stat, it becomes much easier to just get 30+ dex and not wear armor at all, just buy bracers. Only fighters with armor training can hope to beat this AC, unless you go duelist, then armor training won't be enough either.

Also, two feats to make a prime stat a dump stat? Yes please, I'll take two. Two ranks aren't even a cost. A skillfull class has ranks to spare, a non-skillfull class doesn't need them. Only Clerics and Pallys are short on skill points. Limited to one weapon? I use my +10 Sword of Bad-Assery almost elusively, the only other weapons I even own are my crossbow, which doesn't benefit from any of my feats, so no sweat there, and my dagger. The only thing reigning Dervish Dance in from complete imbalance is that you can't TWF with it.

If your Falchion wielding fighter could spend 3 feats, 4 ranks, be limited to one weapon, and have to carry a ball of string in his pocket to get AC, HP, and Will saves tied to Str, would you even have to think about it?


Quantum Steve wrote:

It would be hard for the full plate wearer to pull ahead before high levels when there are no more AC items left to buy.

Let's look at level 3 for a true early picture

20 str fighter with bastard sword, breastplate, 6 armor AC and (via armor training 1) up to 4 AC from dex (2 is realistic at this point), shield focus and large shield.
1d10+5 damage (10.5 avg), 20 AC.

20 dex fighter with scimitar, studded leather, 3 armor AC and (via armor training 1) 6 AC via dex.
1d6+5 damage (8.5 avg), 19 AC

I fail to see how the str fighter is lagging here, crits and choices of weapons may vary a little but str has a lot of flexibility and many more chances to bump AC or maintain damage vs a dexer who needs very specific gear.

Quantum Steve wrote:


The problem with finesse fighters is that they have to keep dex high, so other stats suffer. If you make Str a dump stat, it becomes much easier to just get 30+ dex and not wear armor at all, just buy bracers. Only fighters with armor training can hope to beat this AC, unless you go duelist, then armor training won't be enough either.

A sword and board fighter will always stay ahead in the AC department vs a dervish dance dexer, and match or exceed for damage. A 2H fighter will roughly match for AC, and really pull ahead for damage. Damage is calculated with duellist bonus vs greater weapon specialization.

30 dex 6 fighter 6 duellist, no armor, assuming 18 int
0 Armor AC, 4 int AC, 10 dex AC = 24 AC, damage = 1d6+19 (22.5 avg)

30 str fighter 12, full plate, bastard sword, assuming 18 dex
9 armor AC, 4 dex AC, (2base +2 feat +2 magic)=6 shield AC, AC=29, damage = 1d10+16 (21.5 avg)

30 str fighter 12, full plate, bastard sword (2h), assuming 18 dex
9 armor AC, 4 dex AC, AC=23, damage = 1d10+21 (26.5 avg)

Now the str fighter can get a better enchantment on shield, and can get every other magical/feat bonus that the dex fighter can get. Make that mithral plate and add a better +dex item and you're ahead even more.

For starting, average, and end builds, a str character still comes out ahead. And if you ever get into a grapple situation (summoned weretiger is a good example) I'd still want to be a str character.

The campaigns I have seen, characters have never had loot at the per/level value that the pathfinder book gives, and never easy access to ye old magic shoppe resulting in the christmas tree effect. Not all campaigns are equal, and in the low magic campaign Str builds definitely come out ahead... in high magic the dexer might come closer to the str build, but I fail to see how dexers end up superior.

And finally, if you completely dump str, you can't ever get power attack, because the dex version only works with light weapons, which a scimitar, even with dervish dance, isnt.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
Where can I find a full collection of your house rules by the way?
TOZ and Cyz were awesome enough to host the v. 2.0 documents: LINK HERE.

Ah, I thought their might be another location with them, as I hadn't seen the attribute changes listed in those docs.

This isn't the first time we've talked about your house rules. What you've done with the Attributes makes a lot of sense to me.


Zombieneighbours wrote:
Ah, I thought their might be another location with them, as I hadn't seen the attribute changes listed in those docs.

There's a rather lengthy discussion of those changes, and the rationales behind them (both in-game and "realism" based -- a lot of people griped about Wis for ranged attacks) downthread. Because TOZ is currently deployed, I'm making it a point not to send him updated documents on any sort of regular basis; I figure the final hosting can wait until v. 3.0.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
Ah, I thought their might be another location with them, as I hadn't seen the attribute changes listed in those docs.
There's a rather lengthy discussion of those changes, and the rationales behind them (both in-game and "realism" based) downthread.

I'll have a proper look for them :D


Zombieneighbours wrote:
I'll have a proper look for them :D

You must have a high tolerance for boredom... if you're willing to slog through that thread, more power to you!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
I'll have a proper look for them :D
You must have a high tolerance for boredom... if you're willing to slog through that thread, more power to you!

I optimised my "write letter of resignation avoidance tactics" skill to near godlike levels so it is pretty easy ;)


I think Int based dmg makes more sense than Dex based.

There already is a feat for Int based dmg in the APG. And it takes a standard action to do so with a bow or crossbow. It makes sense. I "know" where to hit you.

Focused Shot... Sorry, I don't have my book here. Take a look at it, standard action and I believe the target must be within 30' and susceptible to crits. And I think there are two pre-req feats. Point Blank and Precise Shot.

Again Int is used for a good bit but Dex is very useful for most classes. Int is only a must have for wizards and witches for their man class abilities. Now we can argue that everyone needs skills but most melees dump their Int almost as low if not as low as their Cha.

Dex based dmg imo is just a bit too much. Unless you wanted to add a feat tree on after Finesse then I think it would be alright. Eating up a bunch of feats makes up for some overpowered ideas.


Im not sure who is going to see this given how old the original and last post was but I found the best feat for Dex based Dmg for Melee weapons is Slashing Grace. It is the best that I have found as it doesn't force you to use a specific weapon like Dervish Dance. Piranha Strike has been mentioned by others above but that is a way to get Power Attack with out the Str prerequisite.


Exotic Weapon Proficiency Aldori Dueling Sword, Weapon Finesse, Slashing Grace Aldori Dueling Sword
Works well will a Lore Warden Fighter build


SwiftStriker wrote:
I found the best feat for Dex based Dmg for Melee weapons is Slashing Grace. It is the best that I have found as it doesn't force you to use a specific weapon like Dervish Dance.

Although it specifies using a "one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword)" which excludes most weapons you can use with Weapon Finesse - with a few exceptions such as the Aldori dueling sword mentioned above.


Quick heads-up: There is a very good chance that Slashing Grace will be altered in the ACG errata, which is expected sometime in the next two weeks. Planning a character around the current version of SG might be unnecessary work. ☺

Dark Archive

Ooh, they're finally going to fix the "Wait, one-handed is a specific category that excludes light weapons and doesn't just refer to weapons you can hold in one hand?" mistake from the original publication :) Note to self: Wait at least a couple of weeks before starting Dex Magus.


Slashing grace in the ACG, problem is it requires a 1 handed slashing weapon, so your choices are pretty limited. off hand, I can only think of 2 weapons that even qualify if you're wanting a weapon that actually qualifies for weapon finesse(why wouldnt you?), those being the dagger and the shortsword. rapier doesnt count because of piercing damage, and neither the longsword nor the scimitar can be used with weapon finesse. decent feat for TWF rogues, but that's about it.


Akari Sayuri "Tiger Lily" wrote:
Ooh, they're finally going to fix the "Wait, one-handed is a specific category that excludes light weapons and doesn't just refer to weapons you can hold in one hand?" mistake from the original publication :) Note to self: Wait at least a couple of weeks before starting Dex Magus.

I sincerely, fervently hope so. We've had some hints that the feat will be revised, hopefully that's one of the things they'll have altered. ☺


Another point in that nobody mentioned slashing grace in the original topic was because the original topic was back in 2011. Slashing grace was published in 2014.


oldsaxhleel wrote:
Slashing grace in the ACG, problem is it requires a 1 handed slashing weapon, so your choices are pretty limited. off hand, I can only think of 2 weapons that even qualify if you're wanting a weapon that actually qualifies for weapon finesse(why wouldnt you?), those being the dagger and the shortsword. rapier doesnt count because of piercing damage, and neither the longsword nor the scimitar can be used with weapon finesse. decent feat for TWF rogues, but that's about it.

I am actually using this for a TWF halfling rogue using daggers.

Also if you wanted to use dex based damage for a scimitar then you would just take Dervish Dance.


SwiftStriker wrote:
oldsaxhleel wrote:
Slashing grace in the ACG, problem is it requires a 1 handed slashing weapon, so your choices are pretty limited. off hand, I can only think of 2 weapons that even qualify if you're wanting a weapon that actually qualifies for weapon finesse(why wouldnt you?), those being the dagger and the shortsword. rapier doesnt count because of piercing damage, and neither the longsword nor the scimitar can be used with weapon finesse. decent feat for TWF rogues, but that's about it.

I am actually using this for a TWF halfling rogue using daggers.

Also if you wanted to use dex based damage for a scimitar then you would just take Dervish Dance.

As previously indicated, daggers (and shortswords) are Light Weapons rather than One-Handed Weapons, so if you want to use Slashing Grace you have to hope for a GM who is willing to overlook that requirement.


Matthew Downie wrote:
SwiftStriker wrote:
oldsaxhleel wrote:
Slashing grace in the ACG, problem is it requires a 1 handed slashing weapon, so your choices are pretty limited. off hand, I can only think of 2 weapons that even qualify if you're wanting a weapon that actually qualifies for weapon finesse(why wouldnt you?), those being the dagger and the shortsword. rapier doesnt count because of piercing damage, and neither the longsword nor the scimitar can be used with weapon finesse. decent feat for TWF rogues, but that's about it.

I am actually using this for a TWF halfling rogue using daggers.

Also if you wanted to use dex based damage for a scimitar then you would just take Dervish Dance.
As previously indicated, daggers (and shortswords) are Light Weapons rather than One-Handed Weapons, so if you want to use Slashing Grace you have to hope for a GM who is willing to overlook that requirement.

Luckily I am the GM for this game and I am allowing our rogue to take this because without this he does 1d3-1 damage with daggers outside of his sneak attacks.

Sovereign Court

SwiftStriker wrote:


Luckily I am the GM for this game and I am allowing our rogue to take this because without this he does 1d3-1 damage with daggers outside of his sneak attacks.

Or - instead of house-ruling - just let him be an unchained rogue. They DO get dex-to-damage with any weapon they want.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
SwiftStriker wrote:


Luckily I am the GM for this game and I am allowing our rogue to take this because without this he does 1d3-1 damage with daggers outside of his sneak attacks.
Or - instead of house-ruling - just let him be an unchained rogue. They DO get dex-to-damage with any weapon they want.

Not any weapon, but yeah. They get to pick.

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