Shotgun vs. Mirror Image


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 2


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Do all of a wizard's mirror images get attacked by scatter ammunition? My gut says yes, since all of the images as well as the wizard itself would be within the cone.


Kratzee wrote:
Do all of a wizard's mirror images get attacked by scatter ammunition? My gut says yes, since all of the images as well as the wizard itself would be within the cone.

I would say no, but wow, that would be a cool movie scence.


I hate Mirror Image and all discussions about Mirror Image.
Nevertheless, you're making attack rolls on all creatures, so scatter shot should interact with Mirror Image.
There's some ambiguity though, in determining how it's handled. Really there are a few steps that would need clarification. Do you attack your target for each image he has? If so, and you hit your real target, can you hit him again with the same scatter shot? This isn't really like a cone effect, so we can't go with how spells interact with it. It's actually making attacks, yaknow?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

sigh.... another problem.....


How do other area attacks work against mirror image? I assume scatter weapons would have the same effect against mirror image that burning hands does.


Scatter attacks everything within the cone. The images (and caster) are within the cone. Therefore scatter attacks the images (and caster).


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
sigh.... another problem.....

I know, right? It be gettin' crazy all up in here!


erik542 wrote:
Scatter attacks everything within the cone. The images (and caster) are within the cone. Therefore scatter attacks the images (and caster).

Here's the problem -- you can't target the images... much like with magic missile where you can't target the images...

I see one of three things happening:

1. You attack the target, and hit or miss him with no effect on the images.
2. You destroy all the images and hit the target.
3. You attack the target, roll to see if you hit an image or not, and either hit the target or destroy one image (this is probably the most unsatisfactory answer to everyone involve, but possibly the most technically correct).

Honestly I don't mind either #1, or #2.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
Quote:
It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. When it attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes one attack per creature within in the cone, and each attack takes a ?2 penalty. If any of the attacks threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that creature alone.

So, technically, your scatter shot would be rolling multiple attacks against the caster's AC/touch AC; one against the real caster, one against each image.

If the one against the real caster hits, he takes damage. Each hit on an image would cause that image to pop.

Final reult: Sucks to be that caster.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Callarek wrote:
Quote:
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
Quote:
It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. When it attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes one attack per creature within in the cone, and each attack takes a ?2 penalty. If any of the attacks threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that creature alone.

So, technically, your scatter shot would be rolling multiple attacks against the caster's AC/touch AC; one against the real caster, one against each image.

If the one against the real caster hits, he takes damage. Each hit on an image would cause that image to pop.

Final reult: Sucks to be that caster.

If it's so easy, what is keeping me from picking up a handful of pebbles and spraying the caster's square, thereby negating his images in similar fashion? According to the rules, an attack doesn't need to do damage, it just need to hit (or nearly miss in the case of the images).

Silver Crusade

Billy Clanton: You're so drunk, you couldn't hit nothin'. In fact, you're probably seeing double.
Doc Holliday: *draws a second gun* I have two guns; one for each of ya.

"That X however many duplicates that caster has in his square" would be my vote. :D


A friend of mine just mentioned that it could behave light a fireball spell going off among the mirror images. If you make your attack roll, all of the images appear to be affected by the shotgun, but they remain in place. It doesn't make mirror image completely nullified by scatterguns, but it allows a scattergun to be effective.


I would say it works like any other area effect. That is, they affect the caster but the images are unaffected. It would still require an attack roll to see if you hit of course. As written I think it would work like a regular attack roll though, so it might hit an image or the caster, but not both.


I think the scatter rules are a little wonky anyway. You can't control an individual pellet in a buckshot, so I don't even see how you can make an attack roll with it. But since that is the rules, and anything within the attack cone is targeted at -2, it seems reasonable to target each image and those that are hit, disappear.


You hit the caster (like normal) but don't destroy any images.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Cartigan wrote:
You hit the caster (like normal) but don't destroy any images.

You stating belief? Or fact?


Ravingdork wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
You hit the caster (like normal) but don't destroy any images.
You stating belief? Or fact?

That's how AoEs affect Mirror Image.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

shotgun is still an attack roll.

You'd have to compare it to Whirlwind Attack, which makes an attack roll on everything in the AoE, not a reflex save. And whirlwind will handily dice all those mirror images.

Ditto shotgun.

==Aelryinth


The problem is images aren't their own thing any more. They exist simply to divert targeted attacks. If the target of the attack is EVERYTHING, then the images are ignored because they can't divert the attack.
Or at least that's how it looks.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

shotgun is still an attack roll.

You'd have to compare it to Whirlwind Attack, which makes an attack roll on everything in the AoE, not a reflex save. And whirlwind will handily dice all those mirror images.

Ditto shotgun.

==Aelryinth

Will it though?

Mirror Image wrote:

This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.

When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.

An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).

I see absolutely nothing in the spell description that implies, much less states, that you can willingly choose to target any of the images, ever.

You are always trying to hit the caster. If you hit, roll to see if you pop an image instead. If you miss by a small margin, you might pop an image anyways. Easy. Clear.

You shotgun the caster, you make one attack roll because there is only one target to hit. If you hit (or miss by a small margin) check to see if you pop an image.

I don't see how anyone can come to any other conclusion (other than bringing preconceptions from v3.5).


Ravingdork wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

shotgun is still an attack roll.

You'd have to compare it to Whirlwind Attack, which makes an attack roll on everything in the AoE, not a reflex save. And whirlwind will handily dice all those mirror images.

Ditto shotgun.

==Aelryinth

Will it though?

Mirror Image wrote:

This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.

When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.

An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).

I see absolutely nothing in the spell description that implies, much less states, that you can willingly choose to target any of the images, ever.

You are always trying to hit the caster. If you hit, roll to see if you pop an image instead. If you miss by a small margin, you might pop an image anyways. Easy. Clear.

You shotgun the caster, you make one attack roll because there is only one target to hit. If you hit (or miss by a small margin) check to see if you pop an image.
...

Yep, this is the most common misconception I see in Pathfinder regarding mirror image. Whirlwind attack and similar abilities work only on multiple opponent's and a mirror image does not count as a creature in anyway. It is a defensive spell effect with specific rules.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

The scatter attacks everything in the cone. It's more powerful than anything ever written in a non-spellcaster oriented book. -4 to hit? are you kidding? vs Touch AC as well? lol

At 11th level a gunslinger is at about +22 to hit with a good Dex and a +3 weapon... minus 4... still at +18... vs. Touch AC... which is 8 for an iron golem... so a room filled with iron golems or dragons will be decimated by a scatter shooter in no time.

Let's quote the wording for reference:

Scatter Special Quality: A weapon
with the scatter special quality
can shoot two different types of
ammunition. It can f ire normal
bullets that target one creature, or it
can make a scattering shot, attacking
all creatures within a cone. When it
attacks all creatures within a cone, it
makes one attack per creature within
in the cone, and each attack takes a –2
penalty. If any of the attacks threaten
a critical, confirm the critical for that
creature alone. If a scatter weapon
explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its
damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.

So yes, the wizards can't count on their mirror images against this guy anymore. That's the only thing that prevented my 17th level paladin to make wizard chow in 2 rounds, in the last Chapter of SD... it's a pain for non-spellcaster to depend on True Seeing and not all parties have casters that carry that spell, so mirror image was still a big pain in my paladin's behind.

Now, a gunslinger can not only touch AC, but touch AC EVERYONE in a 15 foot cone.

Even if there's a ruling that "one attack per creature" means "not on mirror images", it's still crazy broken on large groups of creatures.

So, what about swarms now? is this the swarm buster, or are swarms with fine creatures immune to shotgun blasts now?

Liberty's Edge

If the images are not considered creatures for the purposes of the scattergun shot, then they cannot be targeted, but then they cannot prevent the real creature from being hit.

So, either it targets each image with a separate attack, since it affects all targets in its area, or it ignores the images and cannot be diverted from attacking the real target, with no possibility of it hitting an image instead, as though it were an area spell.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

it's hilarious to think that an invisible creature gets a 50% chance to avoid damage against a 15-foot cone shotgun blast...


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

The scatter attacks everything in the cone. It's more powerful than anything ever written in a non-spellcaster oriented book. -4 to hit? are you kidding? vs Touch AC as well? lol

At 11th level a gunslinger is at about +22 to hit with a good Dex and a +3 weapon... minus 4... still at +18... vs. Touch AC... which is 8 for an iron golem... so a room filled with iron golems or dragons will be decimated by a scatter shooter in no time.

Let's quote the wording for reference:

Scatter Special Quality: A weapon
with the scatter special quality
can shoot two different types of
ammunition. It can f ire normal
bullets that target one creature, or it
can make a scattering shot, attacking
all creatures within a cone. When it
attacks all creatures within a cone, it
makes one attack per creature within
in the cone, and each attack takes a –2
penalty. If any of the attacks threaten
a critical, confirm the critical for that
creature alone. If a scatter weapon
explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its
damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.

So yes, the wizards can't count on their mirror images against this guy anymore. That's the only thing that prevented my 17th level paladin to make wizard chow in 2 rounds, in the last Chapter of SD... it's a pain for non-spellcaster to depend on True Seeing and not all parties have casters that carry that spell, so mirror image was still a big pain in my paladin's behind.

Now, a gunslinger can not only touch AC, but touch AC EVERYONE in a 15 foot cone.

Even if there's a ruling that "one attack per creature" means "not on mirror images", it's still crazy broken on large groups of creatures.

So, what about swarms now? is this the swarm buster, or are swarms with fine creatures immune to shotgun blasts now?

Yes, so the shooter would get one shot at -2 against the wizard, then roll to see what image is hit as normal. Images does not count as separate entities. The only viable target in the wizards square is the wizard himself. As written the scatter effect wouldn't affect the images any different than any other attack roll.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

You can no more deliberately target mirror images with an attack (or attacks) than you can deliberately target mage armor with an attack.

A swarm is still one creature and only gets targeted once, despite its composition creatures. At best, you can get a little extra damage in by calling it an area attack (which, if you go by that interpretation, than mirror image is DEFINITELY immune to scatter--can't have your cake and eat it too).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
You can no more deliberately target mirror images with an attack (or attacks) than you can deliberately target mage armor with an attack.

exacto-mundo


Actually I stand corrected. Going nitpicky on the RAW,

Quote:
Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figment

So the shotgun affects you as per a normal attack since it isn't a spell. It doesn't make sense, but that's what's written. Now if spell generated a shotgun blast, then we'd be sitting around scratching our heads.


erik542 wrote:

Actually I stand corrected. Going nitpicky on the RAW,

Quote:
Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figment
So the shotgun affects you as per a normal attack since it isn't a spell. It doesn't make sense, but that's what's written. Now if spell generated a shotgun blast, then we'd be sitting around scratching our heads.

And neither is it a targeted attack, strictly speaking.

Quote:
Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment.

There is no possibility that it hits one of your images instead because it hits EVERYTHING in the cone. Your images can't divert attacks that are going to hit your square regardless of whether or not you are there.

Senior Designer

Effects like the mirror image spell, or effects that grant concealment, such as smoke, fog, or the blur or invisibility spells, do not foil a scatter shot attack.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Effects like the mirror image spell, or effects that grant concealment, such as smoke, fog, or the blur or invisibility spells, do not foil a scatter shot attack.

Sorry, but the way mirror image and scatter is written now, that's a house rule (or potential errata to the scatter property).

Scatter shot is still an attack roll, very much like whirlwind attack. As such, mirror image can still foil it and concealment still applies to it.

If you meant for it to work differently, maybe you should consider rewriting it before going to print.

Senior Designer

Ravingdork wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Effects like the mirror image spell, or effects that grant concealment, such as smoke, fog, or the blur or invisibility spells, do not foil a scatter shot attack.

Sorry, but the way mirror image and scatter is written now, that's a house rule (or errata to the scatter property).

Scatter shot is still an attack roll. As such, mirror image can still fooil it and concealment still applies to it.

Or it can be added to the scatter quality. I has been added to the scatter quality.


Thank you, Stephen, for an official response.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Mirror Image only diverts attacks that target you.

A Scatter Shot doesn't target you, it targets an area. It hits anyone in the area. Since you aren't being targeted, your Mirror Images would have no effect on diverting the attack.

Note that the Mirror Images are inside the attack cone, and can be targeted by attacks...the same attacks that would be targeted on you. In effect, the area is filled with infinite attack rolls on anything within the area, and if they hit, the Mirror Image is going to get lost.

Also, I don't see why you can't target the multiple images of a mage as part of a Whirlwind Attack. You don't know which one is real, but if you attack all of them, it should hardly matter.

What's funny is that this works fine if you consider all the attacks to be simultaneous (which a Shotgun blast is -that's why it would work on all images). If you apply them in linear order, then conceivably you could get massively unlucky, and in swinging at each image, he'd actually hit the real you eight times in a row!

So, how WHirlwind would work would be entirely based upon it being an AoE that requires attack rolls (hit all images) or simply a number of consecutive attacks = to the targets.

==Aelryinth


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

Mirror Image only diverts attacks that target you.

A Scatter Shot doesn't target you, it targets an area. It hits anyone in the area. Since you aren't being targeted, your Mirror Images would have no effect on diverting the attack.

Note that the Mirror Images are inside the attack cone, and can be targeted by attacks...the same attacks that would be targeted on you. In effect, the area is filled with infinite attack rolls on anything within the area, and if they hit, the Mirror Image is going to get lost.

Also, I don't see why you can't target the multiple images of a mage as part of a Whirlwind Attack. You don't know which one is real, but if you attack all of them, it should hardly matter.

What's funny is that this works fine if you consider all the attacks to be simultaneous (which a Shotgun blast is -that's why it would work on all images). If you apply them in linear order, then conceivably you could get massively unlucky, and in swinging at each image, he'd actually hit the real you eight times in a row!

So, how WHirlwind would work would be entirely based upon it being an AoE that requires attack rolls (hit all images) or simply a number of consecutive attacks = to the targets.

==Aelryinth

I think you are mixing flavor with mechanics, and that is what is causing confusion. Sure the flavor of the spell is "you might hit an image instead of the caster" but that assumes you were attempting to hit the caster to begin with.

You can't choose to target the images normally. There simply are no rules covering that. If a mirror image'd caster gets blasted by a shotgun, as per the new developer ruling, he takes damage (if it hits) and his images are unharmed. Prior to the ruling, mirror image would have had full effect.

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