There is an argument going on about this fact on another board. Some are claiming +6 is the max, but +14 seems to be the max according to the rules.
Quick Quotes for supporting more than +6
The items listed in the core rulebook only go up to +6, but never suggest that they cannot be created to have higher bonuses. Also, on the magic item creation table at the end of Ch. 15, it lists the equation for creating items with ability bonuses (bonus squared X 1000), but does not list a maximum. Because the maximum value a magic item can have is 200,000gp, a +14 headband of inspired wisdom (196,000gp value) appears complete rules legal.
Why give us the formula for making a magic item, if the only magic items with enhancement bonuses we can make are the ones in the book?
The CR clearly shows how to make an item with an enhancement bonus, and give us a cap of 200K for a magic item, but nowhere that I can find in 3.5 or PF does it say, "But for ability scores, you may only use the book's pregenerated content."
Why give it if we can't use it?
Creative Director
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If we publish any item that gives more than a +6 enhancement bonus to an ability score, dollars to donuts that item will be an artifact.
The game itself is written with the assumption that bonuses higher than +6 to an ability score essentially do not exist.
Whether or not you want to exceed that limit in your game is up to you, of course! :-)
If we publish any item that gives more than a +6 enhancement bonus to an ability score, dollars to donuts that item will be an artifact.
The game itself is written with the assumption that bonuses higher than +6 to an ability score essentially do not exist.
Whether or not you want to exceed that limit in your game is up to you, of course! :-)
Thankee sai. I don't really like that fact, and will most likely throw it out for my campaigns, thank you for your swift response.
For 3.x, there is the Epic Level Handbook, which has a headband of epic intellect ranging from +8 (640,000 gp) to +12 (1,440,000 gp).
In the "Epic Magic Items" section of the same book (and the online SRD), you can see that anything with an enhancement bonus to an ability score of more than +6 is considered an epic item.
Now, the epic rules in general weren't very well written, and the blanket "x10" cost for magic items that were considered epic was pretty silly, but it's at least moderately clear that WotC's 3.x team didn't want ability score enhancing items to provide more than a +6 bonus for normal games.
While its true that the 3.X team didn't want magic items, and as shown here, Paizo doesn't, I just don't like how its not mentioned in the DMG for 3.X or the CR for PF.
Mostly, I'm confused as to why there is a chart telling us how to generate items with ability scores if you can't do more than what is in the book.
EDIT: Hence why I am throwing out that rule in my campaign. One of the characters in the game already has a headband of int +8 as it is, and I don't feel like retconning it/artifacting it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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While its true that the 3.X team didn't want magic items, and as shown here, Paizo doesn't, I just don't like how its not mentioned in the DMG for 3.X or the CR for PF.
Mostly, I'm confused as to why there is a chart telling us how to generate items with ability scores if you can't do more than what is in the book.
The answer to that question is if you are designing magic items that give stat boosts other than the basic headband/belt (e.g., a rod of splendor or a belt/girdle of dwarvenkind). It allows you to determine the component cost of that part of the item.
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While its true that the 3.X team didn't want magic items, and as shown here, Paizo doesn't, I just don't like how its not mentioned in the DMG for 3.X or the CR for PF.
Mostly, I'm confused as to why there is a chart telling us how to generate items with ability scores if you can't do more than what is in the book.
EDIT: Hence why I am throwing out that rule in my campaign. One of the characters in the game already has a headband of int +8 as it is, and I don't feel like retconning it/artifacting it.
Keep in mind, all new magic item design is something the GM decides and undertakes. You want +8 in your game at no cost beyond the formula, that's up to you. It should be handled with care, though, as many of the challenge ratings are set up with certain expectations of what treasure can be employed. +6 to +14 is a boost of 4 to the mod... pretty huge.
The rules in that section aren't "here's what you can always do." They're guidelines should you want to make an item for your player and drop it in treasure, so you have an idea of its value.
Tweaking magic items beyond their published limits is a dangerous road. Tread carefully lest your campaign dissolve into ridiculousness (unless you want that, then by all means full speed ahead)
Keep in mind, all new magic item design is something the GM decides and undertakes. You want +8 in your game at no cost beyond the formula, that's up to you. It should be handled with care, though, as many of the challenge ratings are set up with certain expectations of what treasure can be employed. +6 to +14 is a boost of 4 to the mod... pretty huge.The rules in that section aren't "here's what you can always do." They're guidelines should you want to make an item for your player and drop it in treasure, so you have an idea of its value.
Tweaking magic items beyond their published limits is a dangerous road. Tread carefully lest your campaign dissolve into ridiculousness (unless you want that, then by all means full speed ahead)
The thing I've noticed from doing these tweekings is that it doesn't get ridiculous. The difference between a 31 (20 at level 1, +5 ability increases as you level, +6 headband) and a 39 is really not all that large at 20th level. 31 is a +10 ability score modifier, and a 39 is only a +14. A +4 bonus difference isn't really all that grand. Granted, you get an extra 1st, 2nd, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell, but if you are willing to drop 196,000 on an item that can be countered with either an anti-magic field or a mage's disjunction (a real killer here), why aren't you also willing to drop on scrolls/staves/whatnot.
With the ability for spell casters to carry spells over from one day to the next, is it really worth it to pay 160,000 (196,000-36,000) rather than make a scroll that costs 4,500? With the price increase, a 20th level caster could make 35 9th level, CL 20 scrolls and buy the +6 headband and still be saving money.
Really, when you look at the higher levels themselves, it doesn't get all that wonky. It seems that way because at lower levels, an 8 difference in ability scores is huge! But at higher levels your saves, your hp, and your funds are so great that it really doesn't break down.
Just my two cents.
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Really, when you look at the higher levels themselves, it doesn't get all that wonky. It seems that way because at lower levels, an 8 difference in ability scores is huge! But at higher levels your saves, your hp, and your funds are so great that it really doesn't break down.Just my two cents.
If kept within reason, it's fine. It's when my Aldori Swordlord/Duelist can suddenly add 8 more to an AC already scraping 70, and a touch just shy of 60, that problems arise, especially since it all goes to CMD. In the grand scheme of things, a +8 headband is not the worst thing in the world, you're right.
I'm just cautioning that if given too much leeway on magic item creation, PCs can easily run amok. As long as things are kept reasonable, and your game doesn't spiral out of control, you're golden.
And I think you're right not to retcon his item. That never leads to happy feelings.
the problem is not all stats are equal. You may think well +10 to str vs +6 is not that big a deal. (i disagree but well go with your stated views on the higher items) and maybe it isnt.
But if the wizard int he party has already at a +6 item set it so the majority of NPCS need a 17-20 to not die adding a +10 item effectively makes all save spells no save.
Which is a poor model to go onin my view.
My 15th-level sorcerer would force all enemy's to take the lowest of two fortitude saves (DC 39) or turn to stone with such an item.
BROKEN.
theres a lot of holes in the making items rules
for example: some one try to create the very same staff in the core rule book with the same rule?
i can create the item, but the price is very different one, i still try to get one, but the cheapest way to take it is for buying in some shop
if someone read this, and have the exact formulae, can help me with?
really, im lost in that
theres a lot of holes in the making items rules
for example: some one try to create the very same staff in the core rule book with the same rule?i can create the item, but the price is very different one, i still try to get one, but the cheapest way to take it is for buying in some shop
if someone read this, and have the exact formulae, can help me with?
really, im lost in that
What item are you asking for help with?
My 15th-level sorcerer would force all enemy's to take the lowest of two fortitude saves (DC 39) or turn to stone with such an item.
BROKEN.
My question is how your sorcerer has a DC 39 save (perfect ability score mod of 13 (20 at start, 3 due to leveling as you are not 16 or 20, and then 14 from the item giving you a 37) + 10 + spell level 7 (max for a 15th level so-so) + 2 greater spell focus = 32. So how does your so-so have 7 above the max? Then I'd wonder where he/she got the money.
Its technically possible for a sorcerer of 15th level to have enough money, according to the CR, pg. 400 Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. That means that it really shouldn't be possible until 17th level, and even then, the CR recommends no more than 25% on magic items, which at that point would put it at a 20th level character able to afford it.
Even if you throw out the CR's guidelines and suggestions, a sorcerer who levels up to 15th the natural way and stays close to the gold per level will never have that kind of money lying around to upgrade/purchase a 196,000 gp item.
EDIT:
Even if your max is correct, again it only increases the mod by 4! So your sorcerer still has a DC 35 check twice, or turn to stone. If anything is broken here, it is your sorcerer, not my item...
A DC 35 check at 15th level is ridiculously high, but a 39 isn't that much higher. A fighter with a +10 in con still only rolls at a +19 for the fort save, and so 35-19=16. And according to you, with the item taken away, the fighter still has to roll a 16 or better twice. That means that you have a 6.25% (5/20*5/20) chance of saving as it is with your sorcerer. My item decreases by 6%, sure, but my god man. Its already broken if an exceptional fighter only lives 6.25% of the time. This has nothing to do with the +14 headband.
theres a lot of holes in the making items rules
for example: some one try to create the very same staff in the core rule book with the same rule?i can create the item, but the price is very different one, i still try to get one, but the cheapest way to take it is for buying in some shop
if someone read this, and have the exact formulae, can help me with?
really, im lost in that
I'm afraid there is no exact formulae to be found. Some items match the formulae, some do not. This is because the value of the item is based on its potential affect on the game. Since not all effects are equal, some items get priced higher, some lower.
When attempting to craft an item, use the formulae for a guideline. It works for most items. But for Wondrous Items, the numbers vary often. So try to find an item that has similar power to the new one and compare.
Feel free to post an example if you need help with a specific item.
I feel being capped at +6 is fine up to 20th. It is a good stat increase without making things too easy.
Now that being said, I do hope we see increases above that for magic items when we eventually see a book for epic play. I know James indicated that if they were to have items that went above the +6, it would most likely be an artifact.
I am hoping James was referring to levels 1-20 for it being an artifact as artifacts have a tendency to have a bad side effect (or effects) to them. And at 27th level, I think it is reasonable to have a +10 (from an item) to my Int and expect the item not to affect me in some adverse way.
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The CR clearly shows how to make an item with an enhancement bonus, and give us a cap of 200K for a magic item, but nowhere that I can find in 3.5 or PF does it say, "But for ability scores, you may only use the book's pregenerated content."
Can you give a page reference or a precise reference in the PDR to that? I don't see this specific limitation.
About the stat enhancing items, I have used a simple houserule: building a stat enhancing item require a CL of 3* point of added bonus, so:
CL 3 +1 item
CL 6 +2
CL 9 +3
CL 12 +4
CL 15 +5
CL 18 +6
Without a rule like this one player spellcasters would build stat enhancing items too powerful for their current level.
I think the only item you can do every plus (1-6) is the stat books (although they only go up to +5). The other magic items are split up in even numbered increments (+2, +4 or +6). How do you work that? Allow them +4 at 12th level and then at 18th level they can have the +6?
Not being critical, just truly curious how you work that.
About the stat enhancing items, I have used a simple houserule: building a stat enhancing item require a CL of 3* point of added bonus, so:
CL 3 +1 item
CL 6 +2
CL 9 +3
CL 12 +4
CL 15 +5
CL 18 +6Without a rule like this one player spellcasters would build stat enhancing items too powerful for their current level.
Theoretically, maybe. For one, you have to say something for players who don't want to just break the game and make it not fun. Even with that being said, I've never just had my players have the gold to make a magic item. I've always had it that the players have to go an acquire items and materials that will allow them to make the item, so if I would find it ridiculous that an 8th level character wants to make an item, they just can't find 150,000 gp worth of diamond/Chemical X/unobtainium. But that really goes with the GM's job on any decision the PC's make that might end poorly for the campaign.
Can you give a page reference or a precise reference in the PDR to that? I don't see this specific limitation.
And in fact, I can't. This is just one of those holdovers from 3.5 that I never bothered to check. I saw that +10 swords (+5 enchancements, flaming, shocking, frost, keen, vicious) still cost 200,000 and just assumed.
Well, it does say at the beginning of the Magic Weapons description (3rd paragraph) that the max you can have for any weapon is a +10 bonus, and since +10 is 200,000 GP, I think it’s safe to assume that is the max amount, at least for weapons. Now for wonderous items, the most expensive item is the Mirror of Life Trapping, at 200,000 GP as well. Although there is no specific line for wonderous items that states 200,000 must be the max.
Here is the line from the SRD for weapons:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
My 15th-level sorcerer would force all enemy's to take the lowest of two fortitude saves (DC 39) or turn to stone with such an item.
BROKEN.
My question is how your sorcerer has a DC 39 save (perfect ability score mod of 13 (20 at start, 3 due to leveling as you are not 16 or 20, and then 14 from the item giving you a 37) + 10 + spell level 7 (max for a 15th level so-so) + 2 greater spell focus = 32. So how does your so-so have 7 above the max? Then I'd wonder where he/she got the money.
Its technically possible for a sorcerer of 15th level to have enough money, according to the CR, pg. 400 Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. That means that it really shouldn't be possible until 17th level, and even then, the CR recommends no more than 25% on magic items, which at that point would put it at a 20th level character able to afford it.
Even if you throw out the CR's guidelines and suggestions, a sorcerer who levels up to 15th the natural way and stays close to the gold per level will never have that kind of money lying around to upgrade/purchase a 196,000 gp item.
EDIT:
Even if your max is correct, again it only increases the mod by 4! So your sorcerer still has a DC 35 check twice, or turn to stone. If anything is broken here, it is your sorcerer, not my item...
A DC 35 check at 15th level is ridiculously high, but a 39 isn't that much higher. A fighter with a +10 in con still only rolls at a +19 for the fort save, and so 35-19=16. And according to you, with the item taken away, the fighter still has to roll a 16 or better twice. That means that you have a 6.25% (5/20*5/20) chance of saving as it is with your sorcerer. My item decreases by 6%, sure, but my god man. Its already broken if an exceptional fighter only lives 6.25% of the time. This has nothing to do with the +14 headband.
10 base
16 Charisma
07 7th-level spell slot (heightened 1 level)
04 Greater Spell Focus/Spell Perfection
02 School Power (arcane bloodline)
39 Total
18 base
14 headband (homebrew)
05 tome of leadership and influence (crafted at cost)
03 levels
02 race
42 Total
I could have made her venerable for an extra +3, or a lich for an extra +2, or both for an extra +5 to Charisma. I didn't though, because then it just gets cheesy (and so overly focused as to be weak).
You are right in that it is more about the build than the headband. What's more, I merely tacked on the headband to my existing build. In reality, she probably could not afford that along with her other stat boosters even when crafting them herself at cost.
10 base
16 Charisma
DC BREAKDOWN
10 base
16 Charisma
07 7th-level spell slot (heightened 1 level)
04 Greater Spell Focus/Spell Perfection
02 School Power (arcane bloodline)
39 Total
CHARISMA BREAKDOWN
18 base
14 headband (homebrew)
05 tome of leadership and influence (crafted at cost)
03 levels
02 race
42 Total
Core Rulebook pg. 17
42–43 +16How does a Sorcerer have a 42-43 in a stat at level 15? I honestly just can't figure how to do it. 20 for level 1, +3 for leveling, +5 from wish is still just a 28 in the base stat, which is a +9 mod...
Not by Raw
............
Also prefer the Bonus x 3 requirement. Even if not listed directly for Wondrous items, it is still a good limiting factor.
+2 bonus = 6 Caster Level = +6 to DC.
+4 bonus = 12 Caster level = +12 to DC.
+6 bonus = 18 Caster level = + 18 to DC.
............
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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How does a Sorcerer have a 42-43 in a stat at level 15? I honestly just can't figure how to do it. 20 for level 1, +3 for leveling, +5 from wish is still just a 28 in the base stat, which is a +9 mod...
As you can see from his breakdown, he's using your +14 headband.
28 + 14 = 42
How does a Sorcerer have a 42-43 in a stat at level 15? I honestly just can't figure how to do it. 20 for level 1, +3 for leveling, +5 from wish is still just a 28 in the base stat, which is a +9 mod...
Without the homebrew headband discussed in this thread, it's pretty much impossible. The highest permanent score I've ever been able to get it in 15 levels via RAW is:
CHARISMA BREAKDOWN
18 base
06 headband (homebrew)
05 tome of leadership and influence (crafted at cost)
03 levels
03 venerable age
02 race
02 lich template
39 Total
I can get it to 41 in 20 levels, but that's about it. It can get higher, but only with situational modifiers or non-core races.
How does a Sorcerer have a 42-43 in a stat at level 15? I honestly just can't figure how to do it. 20 for level 1, +3 for leveling, +5 from wish is still just a 28 in the base stat, which is a +9 mod...Without the homebrew headband discussed in this thread, it's pretty much impossible. The highest permanent score I've ever been able to get it in 15 levels via RAW is:
CHARISMA BREAKDOWN
05 tome of leadership and influence (crafted at cost)
03 venerable age
02 lich template
39 Total
I see. I didn't think about the last 2, and the first I didn't know about. How handy. I just didn't know how you were doing it.
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Can you give a page reference or a precise reference in the PDR to that? I don't see this specific limitation.
And in fact, I can't. This is just one of those holdovers from 3.5 that I never bothered to check. I saw that +10 swords (+5 enchancements, flaming, shocking, frost, keen, vicious) still cost 200,000 and just assumed.
The dreaded "I have played with all the versions monsters" strike again. ;-)
I don't see any regular magic item worth more than 200.000 gp (but intelligent items with a high starting price can get over that) so probably Paizo consider items worth more than that as artifacts, but no hard rule in the books.
Well, it does say at the beginning of the Magic Weapons description (3rd paragraph) that the max you can have for any weapon is a +10 bonus, and since +10 is 200,000 GP, I think it’s safe to assume that is the max amount, at least for weapons. Now for wonderous items, the most expensive item is the Mirror of Life Trapping, at 200,000 GP as well. Although there is no specific line for wonderous items that states 200,000 must be the max.
Here is the line from the SRD for weapons:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
While i am not inclined to throw fuel on this fire, Staff of Power exceeds the 200,000g "limit" (being priced at 235,000g). I see no reason why if a player really has that much gold weighing them down why they would not be able to use it to craft the most expensive item they can afford. Typically this is a hindrance to the character as it would be far more cost effective and better at rounding out the character to spread their wealth around over many powerful items instead of one SUPERPOWERED item. While stated Paizo clearly does not intend on stat bonuses to exceed +6 on standard items, it is up to each DM to decide what kind of magic items are and are not present in the campaign.
theres a lot of holes in the making items rules
for example: some one try to create the very same staff in the core rule book with the same rule?i can create the item, but the price is very different one, i still try to get one, but the cheapest way to take it is for buying in some shop
if someone read this, and have the exact formulae, can help me with?
really, im lost in that
Some of the staff costs in the book are actually flat out wrong - whoever they had costing them misunderstood the rules. Here's a thread that covers some of the details:
Scroll about half way down before we're doing it "right." Once you learn how the staff costing rules work, most staves in the core rules follow it exactly and many of the ones in the APG are accidentally listed at half price.
Leo was kind enough to create some software to cost them out, and has a link in that thread to contact him.
This Lich is pretty crazy. First off you have spent 453500gp on magic items and becoming a Lich at 15th level p.399 from Core says that you have 240000gp at 15th level. Not to mention if you wanna craft all that then its still 226750gp BUT 454 days of downtime which in most games I play in is simply infeasible.
Regardless I agree with Mr Jade your Sorcerer is the most broken component of that whole thing as Mr. Jade has already explained the percentage chances of survival. Lastly can I play in your pathfinder game where you get to play venerable Liches all you want?
sorry i need to know how to make the same staff in the book, cause create new one its ok but, the issue comes when i´ll try to make the very same staff in the book
for example staff of life in the book
really the rules dont apply in them
txs
You can very easily make a 300k item in Core rules. Enchant a Shield to +10, and then enchant it as a +10 weapon.
As for stat items - the limit is +6 to keep game balance, the same way they nerfed polymorph, and cut out all the uber Bite of the WereX spells that laughed at stat-boost items.
As was pointed out above, allowing uber stat boosts based on mental stats can effectively make save on 20 only spells. Save or dies become truly horrible. Strength is probably the one stat that has the least imbalancing effect overall, with Con a close second. But when you start throwing mental buffs on spellcasters, watch out!
==Aelryinth
Eh, you can go one better. Any double weapon can be made into a 400k weapon by enchanting both ends to +10 !
==Aelryinth
If we publish any item that gives more than a +6 enhancement bonus to an ability score, dollars to donuts that item will be an artifact.
The game itself is written with the assumption that bonuses higher than +6 to an ability score essentially do not exist.
Whether or not you want to exceed that limit in your game is up to you, of course! :-)
I have discoverd Mighty Strength spell (from Dwarves of Golarion).
I asked me why is impossible to craft an item with more than a +6 enhancement bonus to an ability score ?The spell said: "As bull’s strength, except it grants a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength."
If I craft an item that gives a +8 enhancement bonus to an ability score, what is the problem and why is illegal?
There is fourth level spell which works so.
The spell is temporary, restricted to clerics, oracles, and paladins and a dwarven racial spell (IIRC).
Items are restricted to +6 bonuses because going higher than this can really cause problems with the math of the game later.
The whole problem is a game balance issue, that's why.
Your GM is free to ignore such a rule, just as all GMs are allowed to ignore all rules. However, I personally see it as a guideline that I have no good reason to remove other than raising the limit on PC power. As my players character's are already plenty powerful, I see no point in raising this limit.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Most of this thread is based on misunderstanding item creation, going directly to the chart instead of looking at other items first. The chart is the last resort when the GM has decided they want an item and they want a first draft price. The GM is supposed to decide if they want it before the chart and if the price should be more or less after the chart.