Eidolon Question...


Advice


I am DMing a campaign right now, and one of the party members is a summoner. The Eidolon at level 3 has a buffed 24 AC, 3 attacks per round, and a ridiculous + to hit and damage... Doing nearly 30 damage per round, and rarely missing.

Right now, it is a one man team. It alone can take on pretty much any group of monsters I throw at the party, and I am scared to increase the CR to the point that I TPK them due to lucky/bad dice rolls...

Does this make sense that an Eidolon is that tough at level 3? I need some advice on how to handle this, as it is becoming very frustrating as a DM to challenge the party.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Could you post some stats of the eidolon? It is an easily misunderstood class feature and players often miscalculate its creation. Here's what I came up with for level 3.

Let's say it is a biped, base Strength of 16, EP is spent on a bite, improved damage (claws), improved natural armor, and ability increase (+2 Str). We'll go with Weapon Focus (claws) and Improve Natural Attack (claws). This gives it;

Base
2 claws +8 (1d8+4), and bite +7 (1d6+6)
AC 15 (+1 dex, +4 natural)

Buff it with magic fang, enlarge person, mage armor and shield;

2 claws +8 (1d10+5), and bite +7 (1d8+7)
AC 22 (+4 armor, +1 dex, +4 natural, +4 shield, -1 size)

That's using up 4/5 of the summoners spells for 1 encounter. This is taking up 4 rounds of buffing, and every single action on the part of the summoner. (Unless they have the eidolon chugging potions...) It could be serpentine to get that AC 24, but wouldn't be as strong. Maybe a ring and amulet? Which means the summoner can't use those slots himself. At 3rd level a 2-handed fighter is probably doing [falchion +9 (2d4+13 18-20)] on every attack for the entire day. +3 BAB, +5 Str, +1 mw weapon, +1 Wep Foc, -1 Power Attack That's unbuffed, maybe wearing full-plate for a consistent AC 20. I'm not an expert with summoners so maybe I just made a really mediocre one, but I can't see how it could be much better.


HowwwwL wrote:

I am DMing a campaign right now, and one of the party members is a summoner. The Eidolon at level 3 has a buffed 24 AC, 3 attacks per round, and a ridiculous + to hit and damage... Doing nearly 30 damage per round, and rarely missing.

Right now, it is a one man team. It alone can take on pretty much any group of monsters I throw at the party, and I am scared to increase the CR to the point that I TPK them due to lucky/bad dice rolls...

Does this make sense that an Eidolon is that tough at level 3? I need some advice on how to handle this, as it is becoming very frustrating as a DM to challenge the party.

Post the summoner and eidolon builds. The community has lots of good advice, but they need to see what they are working with. Oh, and if it is not an elf, have you tried putting the summoner to sleep?

Greg

PS/EDIT and thanks HowwwwL, we haven't had an eidolon post for about two weeks. They are usually lots of fun :P


24 ac at level 3 is well withing range of a PC as well, especially when that AC is "buffed" as you already said. 3 attacks is the same as many of the druid companions as well, with comparative damage bonus. To hit of "ridiculous + to hit" is most likely around +6(this is a quick guess, feats choices and base form can effect this number a couple points but even +8 isn't ridiculous really), also well within comparison to other PC and/or animal companions.

It can feel intimidating, but it is still managable. At level 3 a party can easily encounter the small AE casters, burning hands, etc etc. Those will hit eidolons easy, and will do damage. Also you can effect them with other things that mess up pc's. Entangles, tanglefoot bags, yadda yadda. Alchemist fire, etc etc is also effective when you have a hard time hitting ac. Sleep as mentioned above works fine - instant Eidolon poof, BUT it gets kinda foul if that becomes a very very common tactic. Eidolons tend to have very poor ranged sets. so Archers on ledges or trees can make things bad for a Summoner,... especially spread out.


I am writing this off the player's eidolon sheet...

It is a serpentine base. 31 HP, spd 40', STR 15, DEX 15, CON 13, INT 7, WIS 10, CHA 11. Improved natural armor, tail, claws, pounce, increased damage claws; Feats: mobility, dodge.

Combat: Bite +6 (magic fang), 2 claws +6 (magic fang) to hit each attack, 1D6+3 damage each (+1 Magic Fang), init +2, combat maneuver bonus +5, cmd 17. Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +0, AC: 10 + dex 2 + improved natural armor +2, +natural armor +4 (due to level), +2 Serpentine natural armor, +1 dodge, +mage armor +4, +4 shield, +4 opportunity mobility. Max effective AC: 29AC/33AC vs opportunity attacks.

Total Evolution Pool: 5
Total STR/DEX: +2
Total #feats: 2
Total skills: 12

I appreciate any assistance to help me sort this out.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The most glaring problem I see is that it has pounce. Only quadrupeds can take the pounce evolution. And if he is only level 3 he can only have 3 attacks. He already has bite and tail slap so he should only be able to get one more attack not the two claws. Even if he never uses the tail attack he has too many natural attacks.

EDIT: Missed that he took improved damage.


HowwwwL wrote:
I am writing this off the player's eidolon sheet...

Four things. One, it can't have pounce unless it's a quadruped. Two, it's only +2 natural armor due to level at 3, it is +4 natural armor due to level at level 5. Three, he can't have four natural attacks until level 4. He already has a tail slap and a bite. Turn the Claws into a Slam so that it's just three. Four, you can't have a Claw or Slam evolution unless you have a Limb evolution to put it on. I see no Limb evolution, and a serpentine form starts off with no Limb evolution at all. Turn the Claw into a Tentacle.

Silver Crusade

Free Evolutions bite,
climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.
Points
Limbs 2
Claws (requires limbs) 1 (Exceads maximum attacks for level. Maximums attacks is 3.)
Increased damage claws 1
leaves one point for
Improved Natural Armor(1) or Pounce (1)

Base at level 3
Serpentine
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 (Not speed 40)
ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Saves Fort 2, Ref 6, Will 3 ; Attack bite +6(1d6+1), +1 tail slap (1d6+1); Ability Scores Str 13,
Dex 17, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11;
Feats Mobility, Dodge.

The ediolon needs scraped and redone to the rules. It's over on the points it hase. Its over on the # of attacks it can have.

Probly should be this.
Quadruped
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +6 natural armor; AC19 Touch 13 Flat footed 16 +4 vs AoO (The AC is not right on his sheat). Saves Fort 4, Ref 5, Will 1;
Attack bite +5(1d6+2), Claws(2) +5 (1D6+2); Ability Scores Str 15, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 7,Wis 10, Cha 11;

Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2).
Points
Improved Natural Armor (1)
Claws (1)
Improved Damage Claws (1)
Pounce (1)
Tail (1)

Total Evolution Pool: 5
Total STR/DEX: +2 (only +1 at level 3.)
Total #feats: 2
Total skills: 12

Magic fang can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Untill it's permanent it hase no place on the character sheat. You can and probly should make a side note but not added to the base creature.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

There is so much wrong here. At level 3 it only has +1 Str/Dex; its stats should look like this without buffs or magic items;

Quote:
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.

The AC is off. Serpentine gives it +2, being level 3 gives it +2, improved natural armor is another +2. I wouldn't worry about its buffed AC, that'll only happen 1 fight and consumes the summoners actions.

He is overspending his evolution points. You cannot have claws without limbs first.

2 ep - limbs
1 ep - claws (which it can't take yet, as explained in the 'max attacks' section)
1 ep - improved natural armor
1 ep - pounce (which it can never take)
1 ep - improved damage (claws)

So that's 6/5 evolution points spent. Much of it on stuff he can't use.

It looks like he is using the base stats for a quadruped, but with the evolutions of the serpentine. You can't mix and max that stuff.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Upon reading this more closely his stats, saves and moves look closer to that of a quadruped eidolon base form. You can't take imp natural armor until lvl 5 btw. Here is a stat block for what this eidolon should look like (I gave him the reach evolution since he cant have Imp natural armor):

EIDOLON CR 3
Male Quadruped
NN Medium Outsider
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14. . (+2 Dex, +4 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 18 (+3)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 40 ft.
Melee Bite (Bite) +5 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Claws) +5 x2 (1d6+2/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 18 (22 vs. Trip)
Feats Dodge, Mobility
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +5, Perception +6, Stealth +8 Modifiers Tail
Languages Common
SQ Evasion (Ex), Pounce (Ex)

--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack after a charge.
Tail (Ex) Tail grants +2 Acrobatics checks for balance.


Thanks guys this really helped. After more research I found out the player did in fact change it to quadruped during their first level (with my permission). I forgot about that since that was a few months ago.

So it was a quadruped. Jaryn's build above was extremely helpful.
Is there a program made to be able to construct these things?

Also, I noticed that with a 17 AC, if you cast mage armor and shield it becomes near invincible from standard attacks. It will be AC25 vs normal or AC29 against opportunity attacks. With monsters of equivalent level having +3 - +6 on their main attack, I need a 19 or 20 to hit...

The tank fighter in the party is hovering around AC20 and cannot benefit from shield or mage armor to help. So he is taking a seat to the eidolon. Not only that, the eidolon is attacking 3x per round at full attack bonus and full damage bonus. So the eidolon is significantly outdamaging the fighter and all of the other characters as well.

Does this Eidolon start leveling off as it increases its level, or does it continue to be this powerful as compared to other PCs? As it is, the players can sit back and watch the eidolon take on 6-8 enemies (meant to fight a party of their level) and solo them all in a few rounds because of its movement rate, pounce and its 3 attacks without the summoner even needing to heal it.

This is the first time I've DM'd one of these things, and the stackable AC is definitely causing the combats to be slanted... It allows the summoner to be very aggressive with it. It is currently strong enough to take on their own party and kill them...


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HowwwwL wrote:


So it was a quadruped. Jaryn's build above was extremely helpful.
Is there a program made to be able to construct these things?

I've been playing with Hero Lab and so far it seems to work pretty well for building Eidolon's.

Liberty's Edge

HowwwwL wrote:

Thanks guys this really helped. After more research I found out the player did in fact change it to quadruped during their first level (with my permission). I forgot about that since that was a few months ago.

So it was a quadruped. Jaryn's build above was extremely helpful.
Is there a program made to be able to construct these things?

Also, I noticed that with a 17 AC, if you cast mage armor and shield it becomes near invincible from standard attacks. It will be AC25 vs normal or AC29 against opportunity attacks. With monsters of equivalent level having +3 - +6 on their main attack, I need a 19 or 20 to hit...

The tank fighter in the party is hovering around AC20 and cannot benefit from shield or mage armor to help. So he is taking a seat to the eidolon. Not only that, the eidolon is attacking 3x per round at full attack bonus and full damage bonus. So the eidolon is significantly outdamaging the fighter and all of the other characters as well.

Does this Eidolon start leveling off as it increases its level, or does it continue to be this powerful as compared to other PCs? As it is, the players can sit back and watch the eidolon take on 6-8 enemies (meant to fight a party of their level) and solo them all in a few rounds because of its movement rate, pounce and its 3 attacks without the summoner even needing to heal it.

This is the first time I've DM'd one of these things, and the stackable AC is definitely causing the combats to be slanted... It allows the summoner to be very aggressive with it. It is currently strong enough to take on their own party and kill them...

If this is a problem for you and your players I suggest you talk to the summoner player about somehow nerfing or limiting himself.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

You should remember he is expending limited resources to accomplish such a high AC. Consider giving more encounters per day so they can't use everything in one fight. This is a big critique I have of the Kingmaker AP. The hex emcounters are overly easy because they are almost always one fight a day.


Jaryn Wildmane wrote:
Upon reading this more closely his stats, saves and moves look closer to that of a quadruped eidolon base form. You can't take imp natural armor until lvl 5 btw. Here is a stat block for what this eidolon should look like (I gave him the reach evolution since he cant have Imp natural armor):

I don't believe you are limited on improved natural armor until fifth level. The wording is such that you can only take it again every 5 levels. Unlike every evolution which specifies a level minimum, this doesn't mention a minimum.

The way I read it is you can take it at first, and then again at sixth, eleventh and sixteenth levels.

Compare:

Improved Natural Armor (Ex)

An eidolon’s hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses.

and

Immunity (Su)

An eidolon’s body becomes extremely resilient to one energy type, gaining immunity to that type. Pick one energy type: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. The eidolon gains immunity to that energy type. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time it applies to a different energy type. The summoner must be at least 7th level before selecting this evolution.

Note that the natural armor evolution does not specify a level like Immunity.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
PFSRD wrote:
An eidolon’s hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses.

I don't know about most peoples interpretations but that sounds like you can't take it before 5th level to me.

Anyways the eidolon is a lot like the druid's animal companion in that it is really good at the beginning and starts to lose its initial steam during later levels. Where your fighter can start to get magical armor and shields, the eidolon can never wear magical armor. At level 4 the summoner himself becomes a big boost to buffing the party as haste as a 2nd level spell can really do a lot to close the gap.

As a pet the eidolon should only get half its HD rounded down for every hit dice it processes. In this case 3d10 + 3 for a grand total of 18 hp not 31. For right now what you can do is have an encounter with a spellcaster who uses ray spells like scorching ray which could one shot the eidolon.


HowwwwL wrote:


Also, I noticed that with a 17 AC, if you cast mage armor and shield it becomes near invincible from standard attacks.

Shield and mage armor don't last all day. Also the former has the guy with the target on his forehead casting it...

Meanwhile a 3rd level fighter with +1 full plate & +1 shield can have the same AC all day long.

-James


One of the many possible problems with the eidolon is the ability to munchkin them to do an insane amount of attacks and damage. Your player might be trying to go down this line. In the book Advanced Feats: The Summoner's Circle (PFRPG) PDF, the writer made up a biped eidolon to do something like 41 attacks by 20th level. Which is way insane. the summoner I built is a mounted combatant. his eidolon is quadruped with bite,reach(bite), pounce and improved damage (bite). He will hit most of the time but he isn't insane on his damage or attacks.

Yes, the eidolon will balance out in a few levels but I would watch his progression. You might consider limiting his attacks to those listed in the book but all types of attacks. The eidolons max attacks at 1st level is 3 and thats based on just natural attacks. Unless Paizo errata'd it and I haven't seen it.


Shoga wrote:

One of the many possible problems with the eidolon is the ability to munchkin them to do an insane amount of attacks and damage. Your player might be trying to go down this line. In the book Advanced Feats: The Summoner's Circle (PFRPG) PDF, the writer made up a biped eidolon to do something like 41 attacks by 20th level. Which is way insane. the summoner I built is a mounted combatant. his eidolon is quadruped with bite,reach(bite), pounce and improved damage (bite). He will hit most of the time but he isn't insane on his damage or attacks.

Yes, the eidolon will balance out in a few levels but I would watch his progression. You might consider limiting his attacks to those listed in the book but all types of attacks. The eidolons max attacks at 1st level is 3 and thats based on just natural attacks. Unless Paizo errata'd it and I haven't seen it.

How is he getting 41 attacks? To my knowledge there is no improved and greater multiweapon fighting. Assuming it was a half-elf quadruped that took EWP (something one handed or a double weapon) we have 7 nat attacks + weapons. At level 20 there's 31 evos to be spent. To max out the nat attacks that's 4 (two pairs of claws, 2 tentacles and the free bite). There's 27 evos left, all being sunk into arms with 1 spare (for pounce probably). That's 13 pairs of arms which can grant at most 26 attacks. Plus the regular iterative attacks on the primary weapon. I can see 35 attacks tops. But then your eidolon is 100% a glass cannon, also I doubt all those weapons are anything half decent. So anything with any kind of DR is just going to feel a bunch of scratches. If you follow the rules, it is much harder to break the Eidolon. I prefer cheesing up the CMB for something like grapple.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
erik542 wrote:

How is he getting 41 attacks?

I'd assume he is using 3rd party material as he sited "Advanced Feats: the Summoner's Circle" as his source.


Maezer wrote:
erik542 wrote:

How is he getting 41 attacks?

I'd assume he is using 3rd party material as he sited "Advanced Feats: the Summoner's Circle" as his source.

Must be some really strange feats. If it includes improved / greater multiweapon fighting, then it increases to 60 and 85 respectively. The only thing that really makes sense is to allow iteratives on up to 4 weapons or just nearly doubling the max number of natural attacks.


lol... the writer didn't go into detail on how he got 41 attacks. It was a side note on his 3 builds. They are pretty neat builds. I used some of his idea's on my summoner/eidolon. Gnome summoner with quadruped eidolon.. summoner has EWP lance. It is a pretty cool setup.


drbuzzard wrote:
I don't believe you are limited on improved natural armor until fifth level.

I bought Hero Lab yesterday. They restrict the Eidolon until Level 5 to get this feat. Hero Lab is the official Pathfinder Character Generator. I am assuming they would have verified this.

Here is the link where they state that they are the official character software management tool for the Pathfinder RPG.

http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=10933


Its probably right. Though my personal view is Hero labs is 95% accurate, sometimes it does wierd things with numbers. Id still recomend going over all the numers once the char is printed out to double check it all.

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