Rifle / Musket Builds


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 2


I find no one really discussing rifle builds.

Does anyone else think that rifle builds are kind of boned as of now? I've only seen Xth level pistol builds. I was thinking about it, and even with the Rapid Reload and Alchemical Cartridges, it is still reduced to a move action. Which means before 11th, the Rifleman will not be able to take and use Rapid Shot.

You'll only get two shots off regardless of BAB/Rapid shot because reloading takes a move action (with Alch Cartridges) and Dead Shot relies on BAB. Pistol/TWF builds will always be superior at this point.

If I'm reading Lightning Reload correctly, you'll be able to reload as a swift action once per round. Swift + Move = 2 reloads == 3 shots . 11th level BAB= 11/6/1, so Rapid Shot (and any game past 16th level) is useless for a rifle build. What is up with that? No love for the muskets?


Yaeh, I noticed that too.


Kaiyanwang wrote:
Yaeh, I noticed that too.

Kind of irks me because I was planning on making a rifle build for the playtest this weekend but I realize no one has any data on it for me to base my choices on. All I see are Pistol builds. So I began thinking about it and muskets just seem to be getting no love. Rifles, though, are good, but I doubt my DM will let me have a rifle.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Any rifle build will likely be built less for speed and number of attacks, but for range. Sniper builds in other words.


I believe you only consume one bullet with Dead Shot, and can therefore make all your attack rolls even if you can't load between them.


'Rixx wrote:
I believe you only consume one bullet with Dead Shot, and can therefore make all your attack rolls even if you can't load between them.

True, but it relies on BAB, so it doesn't matter if you have a speed weapon or Rapid Shot or haste, or anything like that. And how often will optimizers play an inferior build? I'll play it because I like the flavor of the musket builds. But they will seriously lack in the damage option.

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Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

I find no one really discussing rifle builds.

Does anyone else think that rifle builds are kind of boned as of now? I've only seen Xth level pistol builds. I was thinking about it, and even with the Rapid Reload and Alchemical Cartridges, it is still reduced to a move action. Which means before 11th, the Rifleman will not be able to take and use Rapid Shot.

You'll only get two shots off regardless of BAB/Rapid shot because reloading takes a move action (with Alch Cartridges) and Dead Shot relies on BAB. Pistol/TWF builds will always be superior at this point.

If I'm reading Lightning Reload correctly, you'll be able to reload as a swift action once per round. Swift + Move = 2 reloads == 3 shots . 11th level BAB= 11/6/1, so Rapid Shot (and any game past 16th level) is useless for a rifle build. What is up with that? No love for the muskets?

If you reload your gun as a move action and a free action, you might have to shots, but you're left with only a standard action to fire it.

Even at level 11, you are limited to one shot per round. Rapid Shot only applies to full attacks.

Yes, muskets are horrible. For their sake, Dead Shot should be fixed. But at this point, I'm starting to sound like Cato the elder.


It may not be optimal, but you can play off the weapon's increased range and be more tactical - fire while prone, hide, ambush, use terrain - and make liberal use of Deadeye, which will increase your touch range to 80 feet for only 1 grit point (something a pistol user would have to spend 3 grit to achieve).


Maybe with a way (another feat) vital strike and dead shot...

Just a random tought (could be pointless) DPR should be run..


Kaiyanwang wrote:

Maybe with a way (another feat) vital strike and dead shot...

Just a random tought (could be pointless) DPR should be run..

I would, but I'm terrible at that kind of stuff. I tend to rely on others' DPR charts and corroborate answers from different people >.>

Aaaanywho. Thanks for pointing out, Jadeite, that the standard action thing. Totally slipped my mind. Whoops. Which means you'll have to rely on dead shot the entire game past 6th level, and still never get more than 4 attacks worth of damage

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Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:

Maybe with a way (another feat) vital strike and dead shot...

Just a random tought (could be pointless) DPR should be run..

I would, but I'm terrible at that kind of stuff. I tend to rely on others' DPR charts and corroborate answers from different people >.>

Aaaanywho. Thanks for pointing out, Jadeite, that the standard action thing. Totally slipped my mind. Whoops. Which means you'll have to rely on dead shot the entire game past 6th level, and still never get more than 4 attacks worth of damage

You can't rely on Dead Shot, especially before level 11. Since even with cartridges and Rapid Reload, reloading a musket would take a move action, you could only use Dead Shot every other round. Each shot also costs one grit which also limits the number of uses you get out of it, considering how little grit a gunslinger is going to have.

At 7th level Vital Strike is much better than Dead Shot because it doesn't need grit and is usable as a standard action. And you can't combine Vital Strike with Dead Shot since both are special attacks.
With a musket, your best option would be using the targeting grit. Your damage will be low, but at least you'll have some impact by debuffing your enemies.
I checked the DPR of a 12th level musket gunslinger with Dead Shot a while ago and it was pitiful. If you'd get 4 attacks of damage out of it it would be okay, but actually you get much less since Dead Shot only increases the d12 base damage of the gun and not the 20 points of bonus damage you get.


why not try rifle + metal cartridges + rapid reload + rapid shot

to answer your last question, there is no love for muskets.


Blackvial wrote:

why not try rifle + metal cartridges + rapid reload + rapid shot

to answer your last question, there is no love for muskets.

As I said in my first post, my DM most likely not allow that. In most games, I'm willing to bet, the DM will not allow the Rifle, but only the musket.

And I don't think I can think straight, how are you getting 20 points of bonus damage at 7? most I can think of is like 11-12 per shot. not counting weapon qualities

Dark Archive

Blackvial wrote:
why not try rifle + metal cartridges + rapid reload + rapid shot

Because those are advanced firearms and on par with artifacts. As written, they are also unusable with Rapid Shot.


Jadeite wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
why not try rifle + metal cartridges + rapid reload + rapid shot
Because those are advanced firearms and on par with artifacts. As written, they are also unusable with Rapid Shot.

they are on par with wondrous items not artifacts

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Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
And I don't think I can think straight, how are you getting 20 points of bonus damage at 7? most I can think of is like 11-12 per shot. not counting weapon qualities

The 20 points are for level 12, not level 7. At level 7 your estimation of 11-12 points would be correct (4 Deadly Aim, 5-6 Dexterity, 1-2 enhancement, point blank shot), but that's still much more than the 6.5 average of the base damage.

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Blackvial wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
why not try rifle + metal cartridges + rapid reload + rapid shot
Because those are advanced firearms and on par with artifacts. As written, they are also unusable with Rapid Shot.
they are on par with wondrous items not artifacts

Well, artifacts follow the same rules as wondrous items, after all.

The advanced firearms are broken and no one with a slight interest in balance would introduce them into the game as written.


Jadeite wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
why not try rifle + metal cartridges + rapid reload + rapid shot
Because those are advanced firearms and on par with artifacts. As written, they are also unusable with Rapid Shot.
they are on par with wondrous items not artifacts

Well, artifacts follow the same rules as wondrous items, after all.

The advanced firearms are broken and no one with a slight interest in balance would introduce them into the game as written.

I'm going to allow them in my western setting once it gets finished, but only after say...level 13? 15? something like that. And you'll have to earn 'em too ;)

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Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
I'm going to allow them in my western setting once it gets finished, but only after say...level 13? 15? something like that. And you'll have to earn 'em too ;)

So just like an artifact.

A rifle is pretty close to a steadfast, distance musket, with the added benefit of saving up to 4 points of grit per shot and increased range. With the difference, that the can be made distant again, increasing their range even further.


Jadeite wrote:

you can't combine Vital Strike with Dead Shot since both are special attacks.

I'm well aware of that. I was just wondering to add a feat or similar stuff able to make them stackable (one single, BIIIIG shot).


In PF (and only PF) is there a weapon ability that equates to the 3.5 Quick Loading weapon enchantment? That could fix this, albeit probably at a +3 or +4, knowing Paizo

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Wouldn't it be easier to just fix Dead Shot? No grit cost, each attack gets full damage bonuses, no Rapid Shot, no Haste?
That way, muskets and pistols would have their own flair without making one of them inferior.


Jadeite wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to just fix Dead Shot? No grit cost, each attack gets full damage bonuses, no Rapid Shot, no Haste?

That way, muskets and pistols would have their own flair without making one of them inferior.

Ah, but allow use of a Grit point to allow extra attacks from Rapid Shot/Haste/etc

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Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
Jadeite wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to just fix Dead Shot? No grit cost, each attack gets full damage bonuses, no Rapid Shot, no Haste?

That way, muskets and pistols would have their own flair without making one of them inferior.
Ah, but allow use of a Grit point to allow extra attacks from Rapid Shot/Haste/etc

No. That makes no sense at all. Rapid Shot and Haste apply to full attacks only. Dead Shot isn't one. You don't get a extra attack with Whirlwind Attack, either.

I have a different approach to make the rifle better:
Allow a gunslinger to add 1.5 times his dexterity bonus on musket damage. Either as an automatic feature or through a feat. That would simulate the greater accuracy a rifle offers compared to a pistol. A similar change could be made to Deadly Aim.
Less attacks, but more damage with each of them.


Jadeite wrote:
Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
Jadeite wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to just fix Dead Shot? No grit cost, each attack gets full damage bonuses, no Rapid Shot, no Haste?

That way, muskets and pistols would have their own flair without making one of them inferior.
Ah, but allow use of a Grit point to allow extra attacks from Rapid Shot/Haste/etc

No. That makes no sense at all. Rapid Shot and Haste apply to full attacks only. Dead Shot isn't one. You don't get a extra attack with Whirlwind Attack, either.

I have a different approach to make the rifle better:
Allow a gunslinger to add 1.5 times his dexterity bonus on musket damage. Either as an automatic feature or through a feat. That would simulate the greater accuracy a rifle offers compared to a pistol. A similar change could be made to Deadly Aim.
Less attacks, but more damage with each of them.

I like it! Gun Training should do it.

And basically, shouldn't dead shot be considered a full attack action? Sure you're only firing one bullet, but you're still rolling all the attacks and it is a full round action.


I'm with ye Borthos, more musket love for the people!

The way I see it pistol builds are all about the dakka(aka shooting a lot) and that is something that muskets just can't deliver.

What I think that muskets should be doing better then pistols is range and precision, with their longer barrels and what not. It would be nice to see more deeds, feats or gear to support this.

If I where to make a musket using gunslinger I'd pick up Vital Strike, Rapid Reload and some Alch Cartridges. That way I would get the biggest bang for my action bucks. Come level 11 Lightning Reload would free up that move action for tactical movement.

I know that Dead Shot and Vital Strike are a lot alike, but Dead Shot costs grit and is a full-round action, not really something that you could base a build on until level 11 when you could get Signature Deed (Dead Shot). Although now that I look at it, a Dead Shoting musketslinger could be pretty nifty.

On a side note, what is up with the difference in damage that a Musket and Axemusket deals? I just can't see any real explanation for this, I could see how the Axemusket would be harder to aim and thus have shorter range increments but not how axe no musket = slower moving musket ball.

Edit: Whow, when I started typing my reply there wasn't a single reply on this thread, guess I'm slow on the draw ^^.
Also damn you Jadeite for stealing my Vital Musketeer idea before I posted it ;P.


Moofire wrote:

I'm with ye Borthos, more musket love for the people!

The way I see it pistol builds are all about the dakka(aka shooting a lot) and that is something that muskets just can't deliver.

What I think that muskets should be doing better then pistols is range and precision, with their longer barrels and what not. It would be nice to see more deeds, feats or gear to support this.

If I where to make a musket using gunslinger I'd pick up Vital Strike, Rapid Reload and some Alch Cartridges. That way I would get the biggest bang for my action bucks. Come level 11 Lightning Reload would free up that move action for tactical movement.

I know that Dead Shot and Vital Strike are a lot alike, but Dead Shot costs grit and is a full-round action, not really something that you could base a build on until level 11 when you could get Signature Deed (Dead Shot). Although now that I look at it, a Dead Shoting musketslinger could be pretty nifty.

On a side note, what is up with the difference in damage that a Musket and Axemusket deals? I just can't see any real explanation for this, I could see how the Axemusket would be harder to aim and thus have shorter range increments but not how axe no musket = slower moving musket ball.

My opening post shows that even if you have Alch Cartridges, you still can't get over the one shot per round thing. Rapid Shot doesn't work with muskets


Borthos Brewhammer wrote:


I like it! Gun Training should do it.

And basically, shouldn't dead shot be considered a full attack action? Sure you're only firing one bullet, but you're still rolling all the attacks and it is a full round action.

At worst, a feat. Call it, say, expert rifleman.


Borthos Brewhammer wrote:
Moofire wrote:

I'm with ye Borthos, more musket love for the people!

The way I see it pistol builds are all about the dakka(aka shooting a lot) and that is something that muskets just can't deliver.

What I think that muskets should be doing better then pistols is range and precision, with their longer barrels and what not. It would be nice to see more deeds, feats or gear to support this.

If I where to make a musket using gunslinger I'd pick up Vital Strike, Rapid Reload and some Alch Cartridges. That way I would get the biggest bang for my action bucks. Come level 11 Lightning Reload would free up that move action for tactical movement.

I know that Dead Shot and Vital Strike are a lot alike, but Dead Shot costs grit and is a full-round action, not really something that you could base a build on until level 11 when you could get Signature Deed (Dead Shot). Although now that I look at it, a Dead Shoting musketslinger could be pretty nifty.

On a side note, what is up with the difference in damage that a Musket and Axemusket deals? I just can't see any real explanation for this, I could see how the Axemusket would be harder to aim and thus have shorter range increments but not how axe no musket = slower moving musket ball.

My opening post shows that even if you have Alch Cartridges, you still can't get over the one shot per round thing. Rapid Shot doesn't work with muskets

Ye, that why I said "fan ta det" to Rapid Shot and when for Vital Strike instead, Alch-Carts+Rapid Reload=reload as a move action and then you Vital Stike for your Standard action.


Oops, my bad, broski. misread your post


No problems man ^^.

I guess that it's beyond the scope of playtest material we have right now, but couldn't Paizo add a Pepperbox style rifle, call it a Peppercoffin or something silly like that, now that would let you get some Dakka going. But in the end I guess that a Peppercoffin would just delay the reloading headache a round or two.

Another thing that could be added is deeds that you only can preform if you use a musket. Things like sundering armors or creating a smoke screen with the black powder smoke from a shot would sort of make sense wouldn't it?

I'm pretty much brain storming right now, if you couldn't tell :).

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Okay, I checked the average damage a 7th level musketeer would deal with Dead Shot under the following circumstances:

  • Target touch attack
  • 1.5 times Dexterity modifier
  • 3 points of damage per penalty with Deadly Aim
  • Only attacks he gains through BAB

The damage was about 55 which is quite good for the level but not utterly gamebreaking. It might be better, though, to keep Deadly Aim as it is.
The original pickle version of Dead Shot targeted normal AC which would drastically reduce the damage. Targeting Touch AC should be okay if other limitations are applied.
A grit cost would make a terrible balancing factor since it could be removed by level 11. Allowing additional attacks through Haste and Rapid Shot would be unbalancing. This version of Dead Shot should be limited to one critical hit, similar to Manyshot.
How about adding the option to spend a point of Grit to reload your weapon as part of the full round action? It would only be of use till 11th level, but it would allow a musketeer to use Dead Shot a bit more often. The normal grit cost should be removed, though.


Jadeite wrote:

Okay, I checked the average damage a 7th level musketeer would deal with Dead Shot under the following circumstances:

  • Target touch attack
  • 1.5 times Dexterity modifier
  • 3 points of damage per penalty with Deadly Aim
  • Only attacks he gains through BAB

The damage was about 55 which is quite good for the level but not utterly gamebreaking. It might be better, though, to keep Deadly Aim as it is.
The original pickle version of Dead Shot targeted normal AC which would drastically reduce the damage. Targeting Touch AC should be okay if other limitations are applied.
A grit cost would make a terrible balancing factor since it could be removed by level 11. Allowing additional attacks through Haste and Rapid Shot would be unbalancing. This version of Dead Shot should be limited to one critical hit, similar to Manyshot.
How about adding the option to spend a point of Grit to reload your weapon as part of the full round action? It would only be of use till 11th level, but it would allow a musketeer to use Dead Shot a bit more often. The normal grit cost should be removed, though.

Well fist of, if you remove the grit cost wouldn't you have to add a "you can use this deed as long as you have one point of grit." to keep it a deed? Minor detail but i feel that it should be pointed out.

All in all that actually looks pretty cool and I think that adding the "one crit per Dead Shot" makes a bucket-load more scenes then the way it's worded now. Good work! :)

Now that Jadeite has fixed Musketeers let's move on to the Axemusket and it's silly damage :P.

Dark Archive

Yes, it would still only be usable as long as the Gunslinger has at least one point of grit.
With this change, the Gunslinger would have one free use of the ability per combat, with each additional one costing either a point of grit or a round of actions. By 11th level, this limitations no longer applies since he can reload his musket once per round as either a swift or free action.
This change to Dead Shot greatly favors muskets over pistols, but I guess that's okay. Pistols can benefit from Rapid Shot and Haste, after all.
And the ability has still some use for pistol users when it comes to penetrating AC.


Jadeite wrote:


This change to Dead Shot greatly favors muskets over pistols, but I guess that's okay. Pistols can benefit from Rapid Shot and Haste, after all.
And the ability has still some use for pistol users when it comes to penetrating AC.

I tend to see things like these as features, not bugs. I find choosing different weapons more enjoying if the two choices are both viable but different mechanically and with different strong and weak points.

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Kaiyanwang wrote:
Jadeite wrote:


This change to Dead Shot greatly favors muskets over pistols, but I guess that's okay. Pistols can benefit from Rapid Shot and Haste, after all.
And the ability has still some use for pistol users when it comes to penetrating AC.
I tend to see things like these as features, not bugs. I find choosing different weapons more enjoying if the two choices are both viable but different mechanically and with different strong and weak points.

That's my stance, too. It's the reason I was opposed to allowing muskets firing more often.


Well, with all the above discussed, here's how my build would be without any changes to musket builds.

Feats would include rapid reload, vital strike, deadly aim and quick draw. I would of course use alchemical cartridges. I would wield a musket (or axe musket), buckler gun, and several double barrel pistols and maybe a a dragon pistol for the scatter and special alchemical cartridges.

You make 1 shot with the musket and quick draw a double barrel pistol and fire both barrels at once (or independently if you feel like it) drop that pistol and use the buckler gun to make another shot (if your BAB is high enough). Next round reload musket and use vital strike. Rinse and repeat.

This build is definitely expensive and isn't entirely musket only but I think it does a good job of incorporating muskets into something effective in combat. Still doesn't let the gunslinger be very mobile though.

Also as a side not, advanced fireamrs will not be allowed in my campaigns, they are definitely not fair compared to early fireamrs.

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