Generally, I like to keep the threat of theft alive in a campaign... however, I've run into a bit of a snag.
What do you do if your players use these conditions to "auto" protect their gear?
1) Wildshaping : This is the most legit player tactic to fully protect against Theft... I pretty much agree that absorbed gear cannot be stolen lol.
2) Items in packpacks, no loose items, nothing in pockets or pouches.
3) Walking through cities as a group with mounts on the outside.
I'm just wondering, does Stealing an item from a person with Sleight of hand take into account these things or are there increased DCs that should be applied, etc.
Putting things in a backpack does not make them harder to steal. I have never seen someone actually steal out of a pocket, but packs are easy. At least the tops of packs. And if the players want to tell you they organize it so valuables are at the bottom, increase the action cost to get that item from the pack. If a theif can't get it out easily, neither can the player.
Being paranoid about interaction and not letting people close would work. But then you can just have someone bump into them and not steal, and watch as they cry foul that he just stole something. Not everything is done on a battle grid.
Out of curiosity, how often do you try and steal things from your players? I'm just thinking, in order for your players to be that defensive about it, your probably overusing pickpocketing as a plot/adventure device.
I know there is no wrong way to play, but even considering your players might find themselves in shady areas on occasion, pickpocketing is actually a pretty rare thing. Especially pickpocketing armed people. When was the last time someone you know got their pocket picked? The only times I can think of it happening to anyone I know it has been taken from a bag or jacket pocket that was left unattended, not one that someone was wearing.
Anyway, rules answers:
1) Yeah, pretty sure there is no pickpocketing/stealing from a Wildshaped character. Since the items are inaccessible to the caster while Wildshaped, I don't see how they could be accessible to another creature.
2) Since you can only steal small objects by RAW, if your players don't keep anything small on them, there is no legal target for a pickpocket to steal. For backpacks, I might force 2 Sleight of Hand checks to steal from a backpack, one to open it without being noticed, and then one to actually steal an item. Keep in mind its a DC 20 check just to successfully palm the item, and then a Sleight of Hand check opposed by everyone nears Perception check to not be noticed.
3)You have to be adjacent to steal, so if they are inside a wall of horses, the thief would have to do something pretty obvious to get close enough to make the Sleight of Hand check. The Sleight of Hand checks DC wouldn't go up, but the Perception check to notice that someone is now standing in the street right next to you is a DC 0 check, so the PCs are at least aware that the person is there, and violating their personal space.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Putting things in a backpack does not make them harder to steal. I have never seen someone actually steal out of a pocket, but packs are easy. At least the tops of packs. And if the players want to tell you they organize it so valuables are at the bottom, increase the action cost to get that item from the pack. If a theif can't get it out easily, neither can the player.
Being paranoid about interaction and not letting people close would work. But then you can just have someone bump into them and not steal, and watch as they cry foul that he just stole something. Not everything is done on a battle grid.
Agree with all points. Also it's possible that constant paranoia can result in the party receiving penalties in social situations.
"The noble woman slides close to you. 'I'd like to discuss a favor-"
"Right! I'm not letting her within 5' of me, she might steal something."
"'are you afraid of all women? Or just me?'" In the tavern the patrons snicker...
stealing of your players is fun, so here some tips/tricks I use:
packing in your backpack, a thief can still cut it open a bit to steal something, make it 5 harder, and the thief can't be picky.
Wildshape, well they still have to sleep. Against a Mages Mansion, there is no help.
Walking this way with mules in a crowded city that would be inacceptable. They take up too much space and hinder other people. Guards give them notice.
Other possibility, halfling thief hides under mules. It ain't combat so they can share. He gets a slight bonus to hide, but has to make a reflex save to avoid being trampled.
You might also pull some other schemes on them, if you just want them to loose money. Sell them a summoned horse, sword with magical auras, take a bribe but give wrong information so they have to bribe the next one, or if they have more wealth then they can defend, let a group of "adventurers" ask them to share a bit "hard times, eh"
However don't overdo it, if they are this paranoid, it might stop being fun.
Lol... I don't steal often... I'd say that players have had 4 theft attempts against them in the entire campaign. 2 of them successful. The campaign has lasted over a year, almost every sunday, 7-8 hours a game.... I don't think 4 attempts was too rough.
They are in a campaign that is "low" arcane magic, so maybe that's why the paranoia.
Right now they are in Waterdeep, which I'm playing a little more cutthroat than the normal waterdeep. Since magic items are highly sought after... thieves look at what they've gained from adventuring and lick their chops...
So to speak.
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A pickpocket is unlikely to try and snatch something that'll get you instantly killed, like a guys enchanted shining wand of heavenly fire. A few snatched coins or two gives atmosphere to the game while not making your characters overly paranoid.
Now if word gets out the group has liberated the fabled 100,000 gp Eye of Odin Diamond, that's a different matter...
First thing I thought of is who's watching the horses?
Survival checks to track aren't that hard sometimes, so even if they're 'hidden in a cave' somewhere outside town, thieves guild could back track to where they're hid after their scouts spot the marks strolling arm in arm down mainstreet and confirm with their contacts in the stables that they're gear is not in town.
Worse, if their stuff is far enough outside town walls, the theft might not even fall under the jurisdiction of the city law, so the thieves guild could turn right around and sell the stuff in town, and the PCs would have a hard time doing anything about it.
You could build an RP encoutner where see their horses and gear right there on the auction block before they even know it's gone, and then have to RP thier way though the city's unsympathetic legal system, and finally have to become thieves themselves to steal it back.
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In a low magic game 4 attempts in a year is a lot. What you steal would be even more precious and harder to replace than if it was a normal campaign. Your players have reacted to this by being over the top on their security. Stealing from them even more will make them even more security conscious.
However, there is a way to steal that will make players steal it for you. Con men.
Have a group of con men work a long con to relieve the party of precious items. Remember the basic premise of con men is that they prey on the greed of others. These con men have to offer the party something that is great but not too amazing or they will be suspicious. It has to be better than anything the party possesses. Maybe even something that the party desires.
The ideal group will have five or so members. One would be a bard/face type who trolls around town getting to know victims and gaining their trust. Once he has their trust he can use it to get them to trust the next guy (also a face type--more rogue like). "I have heard great things about said fellow."
The rest of the group plays parts to further the con. If the con goes off then you can put the blame on the party being greedy.
The Head of Vecna - Legendary.
The best con I ever played on my PCs was when the master thief of Shanghai, Fu Yu, got wind that a bunch of rich foreign adventurers had sailed into town with absurd amounts of loot and thus began an epic con....
I made up his character sheet as well as the character sheets of a few other NPCs, who were all minor courtiers and bureaucrats of the town who he'd conned into believing he was the Imperial Censor, the most wicked and feared man in all of Cathay, empowered to execute anyone on the spot who displeased him by means of one of his three guillotines.
I did a few rolls beforehand for his preliminary cons, which succeeded, so what happened was that all the courtiers and bureaucrats were real and only the Imperial Censor was fake.
The Imperial Censor of course demanded to see everything these strange foreigners were thinking to bring into the empire, for he was wanting to see if there was any contraband. Bags of Holding? Smuggler's packs! Contraband! Immediate confiscation! Sword of Nine Lives Stealing? Fell necromancy! Only allowed by imperial permit! Confiscation, but with receipt, to be returned if the emperor allowed!
He also set about assessing taxes, tariffs, and all other relevant fees, all the while asking the head bureaucrat who he'd flim-flammed if there might be anything they were forgetting, making this a performance review for the terrified young woman as the most feared senior bureaucrat in all of Cathay kept asking her for her opinions, as the master thief did not have that much skill in Profession Lawyer.
Everything went fine with flim-flamming the party until it came time for the Forgery check for the master thief to forge the final receipt. He botched, and I decided when applying the final seal to the documents, he'd taken out his personal seal as Fu Yu the master thief rather than the one for the imperial censor.
I then had him make a Bluff check to keep anyone from noticing as he realized his mistake, which he succeeded, so he just handed over the receipt to the terrified clerk, had her hand it to the party, and he rode off in his carriage with the three guillotines and half the party's loot.
I then waited for one of the players to say they were looking at the documents and let them roll easy Perception checks to realize that this was the chop mark of the notorious master thief and not the imperial censor.
Then began a wild chase across Shanghai to see if they could catch the con man. They didn't, but they later set a trap for him and caught him that way.
This may sound snarky but I truly do not intend for it to.
The threat of death should be ever present. However, that doesn't mean you have to murder PC's periodically for them to be afraid for their lives. PC's, afraid for their lives, will increase their saves and AC's and their ability to do damage such that.. while they are *threatened* with death they will persevere. (or.. they'll die, and maybe their *next* character will learn that lesson...)
The threat of thievery is the same way. And in your game- the PC's have reacted the same way. By shoring up their holes and covering their weaknesses. The trick isn't for you to find ways to thwart them- but rather let their hard work pay off. Let them start finding thieves. Have some pick pockets *fail* and get noticed and let the PC's hard work pay off.
The fact that they have covered their weaknesses doesn't mean the threat of thievery isn't alive- it just means they learned from your hard work.
:)
-S
I recall an adventure-path I was DMing, the players had stumped themselves by driving off the BBEG at 9th level by accidentally killing the Druid's Troll Minions...
Sometimes the PCs outsmart the GM, and it's wise to have backup plans that can be easily adapted to the present situation without disrupting the 'world view' the PCs have.
Our Human Barbarian had decided to make a sunder attack against the Troll Fighter that was leading the pack, aiming to destroy his Shield of Fire Resistance that was preventing the party from killing him ... and missed, but his attack hit one of the support pillars of a vat of spirits (they were fighting in a brewery, where the Trolls had gotten 'distracted' from their task by the smell of strong booze), causing the entire thing to fall over, splinter, and douse the Barbarian, the Paladin, the Rogue and our plucky Wizard with extremely pure and high-grade alcohol).
Unfortunately, as they were fighting Trolls, they had all been using Alchemist Fire on their weapons ....
PCs ran out screaming, thankfully the Cleric was casting Create Water constantly and nobody important died (although it took days of magical healing for the burn scars to actually vanish) and the Trolls, being the main victims of the falling vat, burned alive.
... and I was stumped on how to keep them motivated while the Druid retreated to the swamps and tried to come up with another strategy.
So while the rest of the town was absolutely in love with the PCs, the thieves guild was decidedly less so, given that the brewery was one of their safe-houses, and now the loot they had stashed in the cellars below was likely burned, crushed or othewise worthless. So they decided the PCs were going to compensate them.
PCs woke up in their rooms (had to make Perception checks while asleep to hear the thieves) to find some of the Guild had snuck into the PCs rooms. Paladin lost her +1 Holy Longsword, Barbarian lost his Amulet of Natural Armor, Wizard's spellbook was stolen, the Rogue's prized +1 Shadow Studded Leather armor got pinched and the Cleric's holy symbol was looted.
PCs went "RAAAAAGH!" and as their NPC friends ran off to tell the Militia, the Barbarian used Track and Survival to find one of the thieves, then the PCs attempted to use talking skills such as Diplomacy and Bluff to get the Thief to talk, but as the Thieves Guild considered such thefts justified 'payback' for the loss of their stash, the Thief said nothing.
Paladin was asked to leave the room, Barbarian and Rogue took turns dealing non-lethal damage to the Thief and using Intimidate to get him to talk, found the Thieves Guild safehouse where the thieves had taken their haul and charged in, furiously pounding the Thieves into the floor. No healing from the Cleric, the Rogue was unarmored, the Barbarian (The Tank) had a much lower AC, the Paladin was reduced to using a Masterwork weapon and the Wizard had only the spells he had not expended the other day.
Players loved it, especially getting to 'teach those thieving bastards' a lesson they would not soon forget. Even managed to convince several of the Thieves (Via the Wizard using Arcane Mark and some heavy Bluff from the Rogue) that the Thieves would help defend the town next time, or they would shrivel up and die on the next full moon.
I'll normally throw small incidents of theft and skullduggery at the Players, given that most PCs tend to err on the Hulk side of things when you take their shinies away without an 'honest fight'. Pick-Pockets are always handy, although PCs who encounter this should also be allowed access to money-belts, coin-pouches they can hang around their necks, and the ever-popular Wizard's Coin-Purse, generally sucking Thieves down whole, screaming, and then spitting out the shattered, bloody bones.
(Had a Wizard PC who did this. Pouch trapped anyone who attempted to use the pouch without the correct password, then spat out illusory bones. Took one password to use the pouch correctly, another password to expel anyone inside and a third password to get out from the inside, which was basically a portable hole with an air supply.)