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As a GM I want to make a dragon with sorcerer classes. Nothing new there. Everyone has done it before. But I was looking at the bloodlines and thought "how weird is this?"
Does a dragon with sorcerer levels take draconic bloodline so he can get the claw attacks? Seems kind of lame. Also seems lame he would take another bloodline as well.
So should the dragon NOT take sorcerer levels and just take Wizard levels instead?
Any advice?
use the wizard. better flexibility with that class and plethora of options, like hidden wizard's tomb underground that only the dragon has access to. the dragon can go there to study,practice and learn new magicks from scrolls and tomes in that ancient ruin, when its not eating PCs and instilling doom and despair to the nearby town!!!!!
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While it's a homebrew suggestion, I would totally allow a dragon who took levels in Sorcerer (dragon bloodline) to use the Claws ability while in dragon-form to increase the die size of it's own claw attacks during the rounds of effect, gaining instead of the listed ability, a temporary 'Improved Natural Attack' sort of effect with it's own claws (and any other bonuses that might accrue, such as the ability to bypass DR/magic).
Actually, that could be an awesome Archtype to write up, a dragon-bloodline Sorcerer archetype for those who already have the dragon type (dragon, half-dragon, etc.) and already have some of the abilities of that bloodline (claws, immunity to paralysis & sleep, darkvision, energy immunity, breath weapon), offering substitute abilities that make their claws even deadlier, or their breath weapon even stronger, etc., X times / day.
Thematically speaking however, the origin of the dragon blood powers are from ancestry of an actual full blood dragon, so having dragon blood for a dragon, gives the dragon what he already has, dragon blood.
Sooo he wouldnt get anything out of it.
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mmm I think I erased my original post :) lol oh well lol
The idea is to improve the dragon's spell casting ability as he ages. Make him a truly fearsome magical machine.
I like the idea of chucking spells like a sorcerer. But the sorcerer class just doesn't seem to "fit" right.
I toyed with Wizard, but the dragon I have in mind is rather savage. So I just don't picture him as the "studying" type, but rather the "RAW POWER OF THE UNIVERSE BLASTER" type :)
In some ways I think Sorcerer/Barbarian are ideals classes for him if I could make it work. Unfortunately I don't think I can get any meaningful class combinations and keep the CR where I want it.
I'm shooting for a CR White Dragon, that is superior to the normal white dragon. In fact superior to nearly all other dragons, just happens to be a white. There is a plot hook there.
I toyed around with using the stats of a CR 13 Red Dragon, just making the color white and using the appropriate breath weapons etc. But it felt cheap.
So I thought about a CR 9 White Dragon, with Sorcerer levels to bump him up. But then it got "weird." and felt underpowered.
Oh, BTW would the class caster level and the dragon caster level stack or be separate?
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Oh, BTW would the class caster level and the dragon caster level stack or be separate?
The rule is that they stack (for spellcasting only, not for bloodline abilities, familiar advancement, whatever).
Although I could certainly see a Monster Feat that allows for that sort of advancement to stack (monster feat to allow familiar progression to stack with monster derived sorcerer spellcasting, for example, for Rakshasa, Dragons, Aranea, etc.), with whatever sort of limitations seem appropriate (other than 'must be a Rakshasa, Dragon, etc.').
I'm shooting for a CR White Dragon, that is superior to the normal white dragon. In fact superior to nearly all other dragons, just happens to be a white. There is a plot hook there.
Reskinning the red, and making it white and reversing cold/fire immunity and breath, certainly seems like a decent option.
Note that monsters are based on low attribute ranges as well. There's nothing stopping a GM from using a higher 'point-buy' or array, to make an exceptional member of the selected species.
Certain templates can make big changes, as well. If the white dragon is chosen to be some draconic avatar or champion or has some special destiny, it could use the half-fiendish template, or have a tweaked version of the half-celestial template, depending on what kind of 'chosen' you are looking for.
Check out the elemental modifications in Dungeon Denizens Revisted (IIRC) for Purple Worms that have devoured elemental nodes or magically-potent confluences, etc. Tacking on something like this to a dragon, making it a *real* elemental force of nature, an aspect or avatar of winter (or whatever), and not a big magical flying lizard, could justify some funky changes, like a whirling storm aura or freezing curse slowing and 'poisoning' those it claws and bites, stiffening their limbs and chilling their bodies, or something.
What about levels of witch?
He could have improved familiar and get an evil pseudodragon familiar.
Hexes, access to heals.
Do you have access to advanced feats for witches and the witches brew pdf?
There are some cool options.
It would be cool to have a little white version of himself, and take the hex familiar growth, which turns the familiar into an animal companion 0f larger size), and then add the feat familiar focus, so the familiar/companion levels up as if he was a druid (or witch depending on the application) equal to his hit dice.
You could even take familiar concentration ( I think thats what it is called) and the familiar can "concentrate" FOR the dragon to keep up his hexes or spells, really increasing his action economy.
Could be a really wicked combo for that dragon.
If that doesn't work, a magus dragon pulling off spellcombat would be nasty too.
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What about levels of witch?
He could have improved familiar and get an evil pseudodragon familiar.
Hexes, access to heals.
[SNIP]
You could even take familiar concentration ( I think thats what it is called) and the familiar can "concentrate" FOR the dragon to keep up his hexes or spells, really increasing his action economy.
That is a neat way around the biggest 'problem' with witches and their hexes, that the action economy puts them in the position of having to give up their round of action to invoke a hex.
Dragons, being that they already have very sexy actions to use in any given round, will almost always benefit much more from using a breath weapon or full attack routine, than they would by casting a spell or using a hex.
On the other hand, given the dragon a cohort / improved familiar that has access to Witch hexes (Imp or little white pseudo-dragon with a couple levels of Witch?) might be even better, thematically. The little guy can throw misfortune hexes (maintained via cackle), making it ridiculously harder to avoid the dragon's breath weapon... Cruel, cruel synergy, and it doesn't cost the dragon an action to set up.
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What about levels of witch?
He could have improved familiar and get an evil pseudodragon familiar.
Hexes, access to heals.
[SNIP]
You could even take familiar concentration ( I think thats what it is called) and the familiar can "concentrate" FOR the dragon to keep up his hexes or spells, really increasing his action economy.
That is a neat way around the biggest 'problem' with witches and their hexes, that the action economy puts them in the position of having to give up their round of action to invoke a hex.
Dragons, being that they already have very sexy actions to use in any given round, will almost always benefit much more from using a breath weapon or full attack routine, than they would by casting a spell or using a hex.
On the other hand, given the dragon a cohort / improved familiar that has access to Witch hexes (Imp or little white pseudo-dragon with a couple levels of Witch?) might be even better, thematically. The little guy can throw misfortune hexes (maintained via cackle), making it ridiculously harder to avoid the dragon's breath weapon... Cruel, cruel synergy, and it doesn't cost the dragon an action to set up.
you guys are making me cackle with mad glee here.
Must read more on the Witch now!
I am pretty sure a Dragon with levels in Sorcerer is redundant - most Dragons start casting as Sorcerers at Young.
The dragons familiar doesn't need levels of witch on his own, the witch's brew and advanced feats make some crazy insane options.
With a high enough dragon with enough feats to spend, using the pdf material ive mentioned, the dragon could have TWO familiars ( a feat) serve two patrons (a feat) have the improved familiar (two psuedo dragons)
hexing familiar ( a feat) enabling either one to cast witch hexes the dragon has on his own, and familiar concentration.
So one familiar can concentrate to keep spells going, the other can cast hexes and cackle and the dragon can breathe and fight.
One might even mistake the psuedodragon familiars for "young"
try and threaten one of these little familiars and the familiar growth hex turns them into a medium size dragon with the familiar focus feat they would be made out as pseudodragon animal companions as a druid of the dragons hit dice (pretty nasty).
so you are going to need 5-7 feats that are just focused on the familiar(s), but it could get pretty insane.
If you wanted to get twisted, give the dragon the leadership feat and have it's cohort be a witch dragon too, that initially poses as the big bad.
When defeated the PC's think they are in the clear, and have the big bad jump them when they are bust doing things like counting treasure.
All that for the same CR.
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I am pretty sure a Dragon with levels in Sorcerer is redundant - most Dragons start casting as Sorcerers at Young.
It varies a lot actually. A Red starts at Young, A Black at Young Adult, and a White starts as an Adult. So in this case a CR 13 White Dragon only casts as a 5th level Sorcerer. I wanted to beef that class level up to something more impressive.
Unfortunately dropping to say a CR 9 White gives me no Caster levels to work with and adding 4 Sorcerer levels provides a disappointing CR 13 Young Adult with 4 levels of Sorcerer. Not an ideal mix.
Pumping up the CR 13 Old White Dragon with 4 Sorcerer levels would produce a CR 17 Old White Dragon with Caster level 9. Getting much more interesting now, but beyond the CR level I wanted. However, it is starting to get the proper "feel" I wanted.
Unfortunately the Sorcerer uses Bloodlines and that just clearly is not going to work right with a dragon.
Now, a CR 9 Young Adult with 4 levels of Witch (and some creative feat planning) is starting to sound rather interesting. It also fits thematically with the dragon being a prodigy and having an unknown Patron with unknowable motivations.
Now, a CE White Dragon Witch needs a really cool familiar. I really only have 4 levels to play with so the coolest improved familiars are not yet available. The regular host of familiars seems really lame for a Dragon. I can see him having fiendish pseudodragons, or fiendish faerie dragons, but this one is not high enough for those. Best choice I see is Compsognathus, a dinosaur at least.
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Now, a CE White Dragon Witch needs a really cool familiar. I really only have 4 levels to play with so the coolest improved familiars are not yet available. The regular host of familiars seems really lame for a Dragon. I can see him having fiendish pseudodragons, or fiendish faerie dragons, but this one is not high enough for those. Best choice I see is Compsognathus, a dinosaur at least.
I'd be inclined to just ignore the hell out of the Pseudodragon and Faerie Dragon (neither of which have ever felt like the Dragons of Pern style 'mini-dragon/dragonet' I wanted), and reskin something with the stats of an Eagle to be a flying lizard, and add a 'breath weapon' appropriate to that power level (such as the ability to spit a glob of alchemist's fire 3 times per day, with the substance only lasting the rounds it's burning and not being 'storable' or 'milkable' for free alchemists fire).
Minor tweaks to the stats for the Eagle, like an extra +1 natural armor, but only a 40 ft. or 50 ft. flight speed, could make it more 'flying lizard-y' and less 'eagle-y.'
For an interesting CR 13 dragon, how about the following:
Adult White Dragon (using the pregenerated creature on pg. 100-101 of the Bestiary as the base, changes noted below)/Sorcerer (Boreal, modified) 3
AC 28, touch 11, flat-footed 26 (+2 Dex, +17 natural, -1 size)
hp 159 (13d12+52 plus 3d6+12)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +13
Melee bite +23 (2d6+13), 2 claws +22 (1d8+9), 2 wings +17 (1d6+4), tail slap +17 (1d8+13)
Bloodline Arcana (spells with the cold descriptor increase save DC by 1)
Cold Claws (natural weapons do +1d6 cold for rounds equal to 1/2 sorcerer level; replaces Cold Steel) 6/day
Icewalker (move across snow and ice without leaving tracks)
Spells Known (CL 4th)
2nd (4/day)- resist energy
1st (7/day)- chill touch, ice (as grease, but using ice [cold]; bonus spell replacement for enlarge person; DC 15), mage armor, true strike
0 (at will)- dancing lights, detect magic, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation, ray of frost (DC 14)
29 Str, 14 Dex, 19 Con, 14 Int, 15 Wis, 16 Cha
Base Atk +14; CMB +24; CMD 36 (40 vs. trip)
Feats Alertness, Dreadful Carnage, Eschew Materials, Flyby Attack, Furious Focus (bite only), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Fly +12, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (Arcana) +21, Perception +22, Spellcraft +21, Stealth +14, Swim +33, Use Magic Device +22
Feel free to change some of the spells or feats, add some appropriate magic items, and have fun.
Why not give him the elemental bloodline (cold) for Sorceror?
Or the Boreal Bloodline from the APG.
Pro: Increased DC for all Cold spells, good flavor and bonus spells.Con: Overlap with dragon abilities, can be solved by increasing the power or duration of these abilities.
Go with a Cr 9 dragon and 7 levels of witch.
For an improved familiar use homunculous as you can make it anything you want.
I still like fiendish pseudodragon tho and two is just tasty.
What if you make him a summoner? You can then customize his "familiar" and give him some additional allies in a pinch.
What if you make him a summoner? You can then customize his "familiar" and give him some additional allies in a pinch.
summoner is alot of paper work and time to work out that eidolon.
A witch the with combination of witches brew and advanced feats witch gives the dragon more action economy with it's own abilities without really giving the PCs another target.
With the familiar(s) they arent even necessarily going to be targets of the PCs at all. Little hissing dragons (who are actually maintaining a witches curse with 'cackle') the size of house cats are going to be seen as "ill get to that thing when im done with big bad"
Since they aren't likely to attack the PC's directly and it would take a good amount of figuring out to realize how these little dragons are effecting the combat, especially if the DM describes the occurances properly and not "the dragons familiar maintains his hex for him and the other familiar casts another hex" but instead describes what the pc's see and hear, they will have to figure out what he's doing on their own, WHILE trying to fight a big bad dragon.
Greater invisibility would create awesome havoc here as the PC's may never realize the familiars even exist and just hear "whispering hisses" or get touched by invisible something as a touch spell is delivered to them from a familiar with HALF the hit points of the dragon!
Additionally with the hexing familiar feat, the familiars can heal the dragon (without him using his own action), buff the dragon, and heal and buff each other.
If the dragonets are ever found out and someone thinks they can go squash them (the main line fighters are likely toe to toeing with the big bad) the dragonets can become LARGE sized dragons, spontaneously, and start chewing on whatever non front liner that decided to bother them, again, without using one of the main dragons actions at all.
This leaves the main dragon to breathe and full attack.
The addition of some actual mooks in the lair will give the main dragon time to cast a few spells requiring concentration (or hexes) that the familiars can keep going through concentration.
Thus creating some of the nastiest action economy anyone has ever seen in a dragon fight.
If the dragon had the wail hex, the familiars could even drive off attackers on them by using it and the dragons intelligence as the modifier... some pretty sick tricks, assuming there is enough feats to make it all work.
Thats' why I suggest Cr 9 dragon with 7 levels of witch.
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My worst 'mean dragon trick' was to write up a black dragon who had chosen simulacrum as one of her sorcerer spells. She had 'half-strength' copies of herself wandering around, causing trouble, and the big bad epic battle with 'her' went much easier than expected (since it was a fake), until the body dissolved into bog-peat (a regionally tweaked variant, she didn't use ice and snow), and the party figured out that they had only fought a cheap knock-off of the real deal...
Being a female dragon, she was pissed off at how easy it was for her male draconic peers to sire a bunch of half-dragons to spread their fame, manage their lands, terrorize their enemies, etc. There was exactly *zero* chance she was going to produce half-dragon lizardfolk or manticores or whatnot the 'old-fashioned way,' (a dragon's got to have her standards, yanno?) so she came up with using simulacrum to supply herself with expendable (and very, very loyal) flunkies, using the biggest, baddest source material she could find, herself.
She also had some decent illusion/shadow magic at hand, so not every 'black dragon' was necessarily even a simulacrum. Some were just pretty pictures, meant to suck up attacks meant for her.
A dragon with a lesser quicken rod (or a half-cost custom version that only applies to the single spell you want to quicken...) and mirror image can take quite a bit more firepower than expected to take down if the party hasn't prepared for her (heavily forshadowed) preference for illusion (and necromancy) magics.
The other thing I just thought of is there is a familiar feat that lets you have your familiar go far away from you.
The party could, early one, meet an do battle with a familiar growth'd familiar, and do this a few times, as the dragon can replace familiars and as a real suck factor, the party wouldn't get any actual experience out of killing the familiar since it is only an aspect of the dragons power, but it might given them a good hint/hook of something is afoot when they battle their third over sized familiar that casts hexes at them?
I got the idea that he wanted more spell casting with less physical damage and hit points which is hwy he was trying to make a lower CR dragon with levels from a spell casting class?
Not to get snarky, but what need would a dragon even have for a bloodline? Getting those extra spells is devastating enough, IMHO.
While Dragon bloodline seems obvious, and other caster types also are appealing, The implications of having a dragon sorcerer with a non-dragon bloodline are worth exploring.
If dragons have been experimenting with magic for many humanoid lifetimes, then perhaps:
One made a pact with fiends- Infernal or Abyssal
A dragon experimented to heavily in necromancy on its own brood: They gain Undead bloodline
One has explored their more primitive aspects: Serpent
Became a creature of Shadow- Shadow (obviously)
A dragon with bloodline powers bizarre to its dragon heritage could become a memorable quest focus.
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I got the idea that he wanted more spell casting with less physical damage and hit points which is hwy he was trying to make a lower CR dragon with levels from a spell casting class?I suppose one could add sorcerer levels. and they'd just stack with the dragon's inherent sorcerer levels.
sorry guys been laid up in bed with a NASTY infection. Anyone got a Cure Disease handy?
Yep I was looking for a dragon that was sneakier, and spell heavy than usual. A White dragon has pretty low spell casting so I want something higher. Sorcerer seemed the perfect option to stack levels with. It just never seemed to gel quite right whenever I tried different combinations.
The idea behind this dragon is that is THE Paragon of dragons. Unexpectedly it is the lowly White that manifests this Paragon.
Now I plan on bumping its stats quite a bit, after all PCs get higher stats, so should the Paragon of ALL Dragons. Being a "weaker" White, the Paragon has studied magic to boost its abilities beyond its age category. This extra boost has helped it defeat much stronger opponents and older dragons that were expecting to fight a simple CR 9ish White Dragon.
This is the idea running in my head. I was just having some trouble making it happen from the standard options.
What I have so far...
custom created CR 13 White Dragon. Better stats, HD and HP. And rather than invest in levels of some pathetic humanoid "class," this dragon used its Dragon Magic to research and learn new Spell Like Abilities to capitalize upon its superiority. These SLAs have not been chosen yet, but will likely be from either the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, or simulate Witch Hexes. Haven't decided yet.
How does that sound? Any suggestions?