Game Breaking Class Builds?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi, I am new here on the forums, so I'll get straight to the point.
I have very limited D&D tabletop experience. I've probably played 20 campaigns or so spread out over a 5 year period. I don't get a whole lot of time to play, and when I do the games never really last more than a month, which brings me to the sole reason for this topic.
The DM for almost all of our games is a Power Mongerer. I am not alone in feeling this way. Our games never last more than 4 weeks because he sees it fit to introduce impossible situations into our campaigns. No one else DMs since none of us really have the home space for 10+ people in our individual places of residence save for the afore mentioned DM, so we just kind of deal.
We've tried talking to our DM about this, but it never really gets anywhere. We deal with it because we enjoy hanging out, just not dying every few weeks or so.
We have only had one campaign where our characters have made it passed level 10. We usually all die around level 6 or 7. Its sort of become an expected scenario, so as of late we have all been trying to come up with absolutely broken builds, that will do nothing but create insane amounts of frustration for our DM.
The only real limitations in our campaigns are nothing from Psionics. Everything else is sort of on the fly. The DM doesn't like True alignment characters. Frenzied berserkers and obviously broken PrCs are out.

I'm posting on the Pathfinder boards because we will be having our second Pathfinder game coming up soon, and we would all like to catch the DM off guard, and actually finish a campaign before we all die during the fourth or fifth week.
There isn't alot of actual role playing in our campaigns. Some of us try, but it never really seems to matter. I played a Bard with starting charisma of 18 (focusing solely on charisma), and didn't pass a single check as the game progressed.
So as it stands, we are all searching for the most over powered, and game breaking builds that we can get our hands on. If anyone would be kind enough to point us in the right direction would be appreciated.


Some more info would help, level range, attribute scores, wealth.

Shadow Lodge

Try going with a group of 4 Clerics all there to either buff one tankish character and able to each heal each other, while including things like Shield Other. Alternatively, maybe through in a Druid as well, or a Wizard for more variaty of buffs and get out of trouble powers, just to mess with the DM.

Granted, it may ot be that fun for you either, but if your ppint to to give the DM a little taste of their own medicine, it should work.

Try comboes like 2 channel Positive and 2 channel negative, all work together to maximize buff variety.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There is no build that's proof against a Killer DM.

If he's out to get you, he'll get you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Your game is already broken beyond belief.

The only fix is to remove the DM.

Split up into two groups and do not invite him.

This is my recommendation.


Kierato wrote:
Some more info would help, level range, attribute scores, wealth.

Well level Range at its maximum would be 10 since we have yet to get passed that level.

He usually allows us a hefty point allocation. Its usually something along the lines of 18,16,14,14,12,10.

Wealth at starting is generally 1kGP, and one +1 weapon. We always start at level 1.

My last Character was a half Orc which was focused around Dazzling Display using a whip. There is usually between 4 or 5 of us and we try to keep a well rounded team, but at this point we just want to make him miserable so we want something insanely OP. Not exactly easy due to our limitations.

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Your game is already broken beyond belief.

The only fix is to remove the DM.

Split up into two groups and do not invite him.

This is my recommendation.

I agree. You can never beat a DM who wants to win.

Get a few rolls of this

http://www.gamingpaper.com/

Instant game table.

DMing isn't hard at low levels, and by the time you get to higher levels you'll have gained experience along the way. Stick to a 4-5 person party and run an AP.

You don't need to deal with bad DM's.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

If you think that changing DMs is the solution and don't want to split up the large group, wouldn't it be possible to have the current DM host the group while allowing someone else to serve as DM?

My gaming group plays regularly at the home of one of the players and a couple of us serve as DM for different campaigns.

It sounds like no matter what you do with your PCs, as long as this guy is DM, the best you can hope for is an arms race of continually increasing power levels.


As a GM myself, this sounds atrocious. Being a GM isn't about "winning," its about being a narrator, a referee, and a medium in which the players can experience the world. If your GM is putting your group into impossible scenarios with no hope of winning just so he can "beat" you, then he's completely missing the point of his position. Here is some of my advice:

1) Talk to the GM. Tell him your concerns. Get the rest of your friends in on this. Its impossible for him to deny the fact that nine of his friends are not having fun and have not had fun for the past 5 years. If he does deny this, he's not your friend.

2) See if you can get the GM to "take a break" from GMing. Have you or another person in your group offer to GM and let him play for a while. Most GMs get burned out as time goes on; maybe he's getting there himself. That way, you could still use his quarters. I know your concern; I myself have several friends whose homes are much better suited for playing Pathfinder than the others.

3) Exclude him. I agree with the other people in this thread; if you are not having fun with him, you've voiced your concerns, and you've even offered to let him be a player in your group for a little bit, then he is not worth your time and you should dump him. I've tried GMing for a large crowd (8 people) and frankly I'm amazed that you guys do that on a regular basis; it's REALLY hard to do! That could be why he's killing you off, and ultimately I would suggest breaking your friends down into two 5 person groups. Perhaps you could have the DMs of each group collaborate on the adventure and have the two teams working together, maybe even hopping from session to session as their schedule and the story allows. That could actually be really cool!

Hope some of my advice helps you out.


Erghiez wrote:

Hi, I am new here on the forums, so I'll get straight to the point.

I have very limited D&D tabletop experience. I've probably played 20 campaigns or so spread out over a 5 year period. I don't get a whole lot of time to play, and when I do the games never really last more than a month, which brings me to the sole reason for this topic.
The DM for almost all of our games is a Power Mongerer. I am not alone in feeling this way. Our games never last more than 4 weeks because he sees it fit to introduce impossible situations into our campaigns. No one else DMs since none of us really have the home space for 10+ people in our individual places of residence save for the afore mentioned DM, so we just kind of deal.
We've tried talking to our DM about this, but it never really gets anywhere. We deal with it because we enjoy hanging out, just not dying every few weeks or so.
We have only had one campaign where our characters have made it passed level 10. We usually all die around level 6 or 7. Its sort of become an expected scenario, so as of late we have all been trying to come up with absolutely broken builds, that will do nothing but create insane amounts of frustration for our DM.
The only real limitations in our campaigns are nothing from Psionics. Everything else is sort of on the fly. The DM doesn't like True alignment characters. Frenzied berserkers and obviously broken PrCs are out.

I'm posting on the Pathfinder boards because we will be having our second Pathfinder game coming up soon, and we would all like to catch the DM off guard, and actually finish a campaign before we all die during the fourth or fifth week.
There isn't alot of actual role playing in our campaigns. Some of us try, but it never really seems to matter. I played a Bard with starting charisma of 18 (focusing solely on charisma), and didn't pass a single check as the game progressed.
So as it stands, we are all searching for the most over powered, and game breaking builds that we can get our hands on. If anyone would be kind enough...

You can not win an arms with the the GM. I do have a question however. Why does he have to be the GM just because it is at his house. I DM at all of my friend's unless he is pulling the "my house, my rules" thing, in which case it might be better to meet at an FLGS even if it is a long drive. How long is too long is up to you as a group though.


I have to say I am surprised at the traffic on this thread. I really appreciate all of the advice.

The largest reason we've dealt with him for this long is largely due to his place providing a large area with little to no distractions. As the rest of us are either married, have kids, or in relationships, it makes it difficult to host games at any one of our places.

My place is the most suitable out of our group (aside from the current DM.) It is an apartment, and sound carries, so it'd be hard to not disturb my neighbors.

Some of the other reasons have alot to do with experience. Alot of us aren't skilled enough to DM a game appropriately. The few of us that can DM a game never really want to. We could learn to DM, but I have to admit that a couple of us nit pick alot of details. We've made a few attempts at letting a couple others try, and its always ended in disaster. I'm sure you guys have all seen the arguments over this effecting that, etc.

We usually deal with our current DM because he actually knows the game and doesn't enjoy playing the game as much as DM'ing it. He doesn't always apply the, 'My house, my rules' nonsense, but it's come up from time to time.

As I've mentioned, I am still fairly inexperienced with the game. I haven't played consistently enough to remember every detail I've encountered, so I am constantly re-learning as I go along.

Our games also tend to run for several hours. Our schedule usually starts at around 6pm on friday nights and we are usually lucky if it ends at 6am the following morning. I am sure that largely has to do with our group size and constant cheetos/mountain dew jokes =)


By your comments, I am under the assumption that you can use 3.5 material. With that in mind I created the following debuffer wizard. If I am mistaken, please let me know. More to follow.

Human Wizard/10 (Universalist)
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: Scibe Scroll, Toughness, Dodge, Persistant Spell(APG), Craft Wand, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Ray), Heighten Spell, Craft Rod
Skills:
Special Features: Arcane Bond (Ring)
Spells Known:
0-level:
1-level: Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray, Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, (4 more spells that strike your fancy)
2-level: Touch of Idiocy, Spectral Hand, Touch of Gracelessness(APG), Ray of Sickness(SC), Ray of Stupidity(SC), Ray of Weakness(SC)
3-level: Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Ray of Dizziness(SC), Greater Disrupt Undead(SC)
4-level: Black Tentacles, Crushing Dispair, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Calcific TOuch(APG), Ray of Deanimation(SC),
5-level:Dismissal, Cloud Kill, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Waves of Fatigue,

(APG)=Advanced Players Guide (Pathfinder)
(SC)=Spell Compendium(3.5)

Many of the spells are from 3.5 but are required to make the character work. Spectral Hand allows you to deliver touch spells at a distance, avoid melee (obviously). This character can reduce the effectiveness of any creature to minimal in a few short rounds. For undead and constructs, you pretty much have to rely on straight damage (Ray of deanimation for Constructs and Greater Disrupt Undead for, well, undead). Craft Scrolls and Wands to be able to use the spells more per day. Pearls of power will allow you to get some spells back between encounters. Your arcane bond (Ring) should be turned into a powerful ring of wizardry.


Kierato wrote:

By your comments, I am under the assumption that you can use 3.5 material. With that in mind I created the following debuffer wizard. If I am mistaken, please let me know. More to follow.

Human Wizard/10 (Universalist)
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: Scibe Scroll, Toughness, Dodge, Persistant Spell(APG), Craft Wand, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Ray), Heighten Spell, Craft Rod
Skills:
Special Features: Arcane Bond (Ring)
Spells Known:
0-level:
1-level: Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray, Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, (4 more spells that strike your fancy)
2-level: Touch of Idiocy, Spectral Hand, Touch of Gracelessness(APG), Ray of Sickness(SC), Ray of Stupidity(SC), Ray of Weakness(SC)
3-level: Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Ray of Dizziness(SC), Greater Disrupt Undead(SC)
4-level: Black Tentacles, Crushing Dispair, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Calcific TOuch(APG), Ray of Deanimation(SC),
5-level:Dismissal, Cloud Kill, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Waves of Fatigue,

(APG)=Advanced Players Guide (Pathfinder)
(SC)=Spell Compendium(3.5)

Many of the spells are from 3.5 but are required to make the character work. Spectral Hand allows you to deliver touch spells at a distance, avoid melee (obviously). This character can reduce the effectiveness of any creature to minimal in a few short rounds. For undead and constructs, you pretty much have to rely on straight damage (Ray of deanimation for Constructs and Greater Disrupt Undead for, well, undead). Craft Scrolls and Wands to be able to use the spells more per day. Pearls of power will allow you to get some spells back between encounters. Your arcane bond (Ring) should be turned into a powerful ring of wizardry.

Collectively we have every 3.5 edition book, and most of the Pathfinder books.


Erghiez wrote:
Kierato wrote:

By your comments, I am under the assumption that you can use 3.5 material. With that in mind I created the following debuffer wizard. If I am mistaken, please let me know. More to follow.

Human Wizard/10 (Universalist)
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: Scibe Scroll, Toughness, Dodge, Persistant Spell(APG), Craft Wand, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Ray), Heighten Spell, Craft Rod
Skills:
Special Features: Arcane Bond (Ring)
Spells Known:
0-level:
1-level: Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray, Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, (4 more spells that strike your fancy)
2-level: Touch of Idiocy, Spectral Hand, Touch of Gracelessness(APG), Ray of Sickness(SC), Ray of Stupidity(SC), Ray of Weakness(SC)
3-level: Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Ray of Dizziness(SC), Greater Disrupt Undead(SC)
4-level: Black Tentacles, Crushing Dispair, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Calcific TOuch(APG), Ray of Deanimation(SC),
5-level:Dismissal, Cloud Kill, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Waves of Fatigue,

(APG)=Advanced Players Guide (Pathfinder)
(SC)=Spell Compendium(3.5)

Many of the spells are from 3.5 but are required to make the character work. Spectral Hand allows you to deliver touch spells at a distance, avoid melee (obviously). This character can reduce the effectiveness of any creature to minimal in a few short rounds. For undead and constructs, you pretty much have to rely on straight damage (Ray of deanimation for Constructs and Greater Disrupt Undead for, well, undead). Craft Scrolls and Wands to be able to use the spells more per day. Pearls of power will allow you to get some spells back between encounters. Your arcane bond (Ring) should be turned into a powerful ring of wizardry.

Collectively we have every 3.5 edition book, and most of the Pathfinder books.

Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?


Kierato wrote:
Erghiez wrote:
Kierato wrote:

By your comments, I am under the assumption that you can use 3.5 material. With that in mind I created the following debuffer wizard. If I am mistaken, please let me know. More to follow.

Human Wizard/10 (Universalist)
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 22, Wis 14, Cha 10
Feats: Scibe Scroll, Toughness, Dodge, Persistant Spell(APG), Craft Wand, Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (Ray), Heighten Spell, Craft Rod
Skills:
Special Features: Arcane Bond (Ring)
Spells Known:
0-level:
1-level: Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray, Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, (4 more spells that strike your fancy)
2-level: Touch of Idiocy, Spectral Hand, Touch of Gracelessness(APG), Ray of Sickness(SC), Ray of Stupidity(SC), Ray of Weakness(SC)
3-level: Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Ray of Exhaustion, Slow, Ray of Dizziness(SC), Greater Disrupt Undead(SC)
4-level: Black Tentacles, Crushing Dispair, Bestow Curse, Enervation, Calcific TOuch(APG), Ray of Deanimation(SC),
5-level:Dismissal, Cloud Kill, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Waves of Fatigue,

(APG)=Advanced Players Guide (Pathfinder)
(SC)=Spell Compendium(3.5)

Many of the spells are from 3.5 but are required to make the character work. Spectral Hand allows you to deliver touch spells at a distance, avoid melee (obviously). This character can reduce the effectiveness of any creature to minimal in a few short rounds. For undead and constructs, you pretty much have to rely on straight damage (Ray of deanimation for Constructs and Greater Disrupt Undead for, well, undead). Craft Scrolls and Wands to be able to use the spells more per day. Pearls of power will allow you to get some spells back between encounters. Your arcane bond (Ring) should be turned into a powerful ring of wizardry.

Collectively we have every 3.5 edition book, and most of the Pathfinder books.
Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?

Haha, like I've mentioned I'm a bit inexperienced, so I'm browsing through the books I have to piece it together, but it looks like a great build. I'll have to give it a go. Thank you =)


Erghiez wrote:

I have to say I am surprised at the traffic on this thread. I really appreciate all of the advice.

The largest reason we've dealt with him for this long is largely due to his place providing a large area with little to no distractions. As the rest of us are either married, have kids, or in relationships, it makes it difficult to host games at any one of our places.

My place is the most suitable out of our group (aside from the current DM.) It is an apartment, and sound carries, so it'd be hard to not disturb my neighbors.

Some of the other reasons have alot to do with experience. Alot of us aren't skilled enough to DM a game appropriately. The few of us that can DM a game never really want to. We could learn to DM, but I have to admit that a couple of us nit pick alot of details. We've made a few attempts at letting a couple others try, and its always ended in disaster. I'm sure you guys have all seen the arguments over this effecting that, etc.

We usually deal with our current DM because he actually knows the game and doesn't enjoy playing the game as much as DM'ing it. He doesn't always apply the, 'My house, my rules' nonsense, but it's come up from time to time.

As I've mentioned, I am still fairly inexperienced with the game. I haven't played consistently enough to remember every detail I've encountered, so I am constantly re-learning as I go along.

Our games also tend to run for several hours. Our schedule usually starts at around 6pm on friday nights and we are usually lucky if it ends at 6am the following morning. I am sure that largely has to do with our group size and constant cheetos/mountain dew jokes =)

I think in order to avoid the nitpicking you agree to go with the ruling at the table*, then the DM can research the rule after the session or check here for the answer. It won't provide immediate results, but whoever is DM'ing will get better over time, and the group will get better with rules as a whole. You also will eventually finish a game one day.

*That is what every group I have been in has done. The only time we actually stop the game is if it is life threatening to a character.

edit: added "after the session"


So it sounds to me like he's a terrible terrible DM and if as you say you've gone through 20 campgains at 1-4 sessions a pop then I don't really think it's ever going to get any better. Espicaly if you've already talked to him about it. If it were me I'd do everything I could to arrange a different game where he wasn't the DM but it sounds like that's not really a viable option either. As everyone else has said it's impossible to win a power war with the DM, so all that being the case I only see one other option.

It's time to mess with him.

For the past five years he's been killing off characters that you and your table have put time and effort into making essentialy rendering that effort meaningless. It's time to do the same to him.

Make your super duper over powered characters but then have them all be absolutely terrified of adventuring. If you stumble across a tomb full of undead inform the local priesthood and walk away, if there is no local priesthood then announce that you're going to head to major city center X (where X is preferably a place that you know he hasn't fleshed out at all) to inform the upper ups of the priest hood.

If you happen to spot a person getting mugged in an ally inform the city gard and be about your bussiness with your sense of civic duty intact.

Set out to explore a section of the world that you know he dosen't have detailed. Then when there turns out to be something dangerous going on there head back home.

Start in character projects that will take forever like building your own cabin in the woods even though you have no ranks in craft carpenter.

Essentialy do everythig in your power to ensure that his prep time is just as wasted as yours has been for the past five years.

Now make no mistake, this is a dick move. It probably won't end well an could very well end with you being out a DM. Still if all that's really left to do is make a point this is how I'd recomend doing it.

Torger


.
..
...
....
.....

Hold up..

There are 10 of you.

..and 1 Jerk?

Have you tried incorporating mob justice into your dynamic?

Note: If there is no body it's classed as a missing persons..

*shakes fist*


Torger Miltenberger wrote:

So it sounds to me like he's a terrible terrible DM and if as you say you've gone through 20 campgains at 1-4 sessions a pop then I don't really think it's ever going to get any better. Espicaly if you've already talked to him about it. If it were me I'd do everything I could to arrange a different game where he wasn't the DM but it sounds like that's not really a viable option either. As everyone else has said it's impossible to win a power war with the DM, so all that being the case I only see one other option.

It's time to mess with him.

For the past five years he's been killing off characters that you and your table have put time and effort into making essentialy rendering that effort meaningless. It's time to do the same to him.

Make your super duper over powered characters but then have them all be absolutely terrified of adventuring. If you stumble across a tomb full of undead inform the local priesthood and walk away, if there is no local priesthood then announce that you're going to head to major city center X (where X is preferably a place that you know he hasn't fleshed out at all) to inform the upper ups of the priest hood.

If you happen to spot a person getting mugged in an ally inform the city gard and be about your bussiness with your sense of civic duty intact.

Set out to explore a section of the world that you know he dosen't have detailed. Then when there turns out to be something dangerous going on there head back home.

Start in character projects that will take forever like building your own cabin in the woods even though you have no ranks in craft carpenter.

Essentialy do everythig in your power to ensure that his prep time is just as wasted as yours has been for the past five years.

Now make no mistake, this is a dick move. It probably won't end well an could very well end with you being out a DM. Still if all that's really left to do is make a point this is how I'd recomend doing it.

Torger

This is the only way to win. If the GM gets desperate, he can drop the story in your lap, but that is stupid and he knows it is, so you still win.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Couple of things :

A) 11 people is too big. You really need to break it down into 2 groups. If everyone wants to play with everyone else, break down into two groups like this and then play short stories (3 levels each) and then switch the groups around. This does two things, it lets everyone play with everyone else over time, and it gives multiple people time to learn to GM. To make it fair, maybe have two people volunteer to GM at first, and then put names in hats to see who plays in each person's game.

B) If you absolutely need to get even with GM before you leave game, try using the HackMaster Clone effect. Everytime someone dies, the rest of the party keeps their equipment. Bring the exact same character back with wealth by level, and then have the party give the equipment back to the new clone. The new clone can get some goodies and either sell them or give them to other players. If the GM makes you start over at level 1, you have a level 1 character with Nth level items. :) If he pulls the 'relatives want it' move, have each character be an orphan with no family or friends other than the party members. :) So it won't matter if you die, your time on the character won't be wasted, and you actually get more equipment than if you'd lived.


Human Cleric/10
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 18
Feats: Selective Channeling, Augment Healing(CD), Extra Channeling, Toughness, Craft Wand, Touch of Healing(CC),
Skills:
Special Features: Channel Energy(5d6)8/day, Healing Domain (Restoration sub-domain), Glory Domain (Honor sub-domain),
Spells prepared:
0-level: Light, Stabilize, Detect Magic, Guidance
1-level: Shield of Faith*, Lesser Vigor(SC)X2, Bless, Remove Fear, (1 more spell of choice)
2-level: Remove Disease*, Close Wounds(SC)X2, Lesser Restoration, (1 more spell of choice)
3-level: Cure Serious Wounds*, Vigor(SC)X2, Mass lesser Vigor(SC), Dispel Magic
4-level: Neutralize Poison*, Seed of Life(CC)X2, Positive Energy Aura(SC), (1more spell of choice)
5-level: Breath of Life*, Darts of Life(CC)X2, Greater Vigor,
*=Domain Spell
(CC)=Complete Champion
(CD)=Complete Divine
(SC)=Spell Compendium

As long as this character has spells, no one dies. Augment Healing should have it's requirements modified, since you are meant to be able to take it at first level, but now must wait till 4th. Augment Healing causes all of your Conjuration (Healing) spells to restore an additional 2 hp per spell level. Touch of Healing is a reserve feat, meaning you must keep a Conjuration (Healing) spell of 2nd level or higher in reserve to use it. It lets you heal 3 points of damage per level of the highest level Conjuration (Healing) spell you have prepared with a touch, but cannot heal above 1/2 the targets HP. This is good for after combat healing for seriously wounded characters. Also, it grants a +1 caster level for Conjuration (Healing) spells (Always active).
Out of combat, the 'vigor' spells are better than an equal level cure spell. Darts of life effectively give you 10 cure spells waiting to be used once you cast it. You can launch one dart as a free action, 3 as a standard action, or all remaining as a full round action. Based on a line in it's description, you might be able to apply the healing domains free empower to it, but that is subject to DM interpretation. Close Wounds can be cast as an immediate action and can therefore be used to prevent someone from dieing. Get a Phylactery of Positive Energy (pathfinder core rulebook) to add +2d6 to you channel Energy.
Restoration sub-domain allows you to cure a number of status effects with a touch 3+wis mod per day. Honor sub-domain allows you to grant an additional save vs. Enchantment (charm) and (compulsion) effects, and can grant it to yourself as well, 3+wis mod per day.
This character is also decent at taking out undead.


Kierato wrote:

Human Cleric/10

Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 18
Feats: Selective Channeling, Augment Healing(CD), Extra Channeling, Toughness, Craft Wand, Touch of Healing(CC),
Skills:
Special Features: Channel Energy(5d6)8/day, Healing Domain (Restoration sub-domain), Glory Domain (Honor sub-domain),
Spells prepared:
0-level: Light, Stabilize, Detect Magic, Guidance
1-level: Shield of Faith*, Lesser Vigor(SC)X2, Bless, Remove Fear, (1 more spell of choice)
2-level: Remove Disease*, Close Wounds(SC)X2, Lesser Restoration, (1 more spell of choice)
3-level: Cure Serious Wounds*, Vigor(SC)X2, Mass lesser Vigor(SC), Dispel Magic
4-level: Neutralize Poison*, Seed of Life(CC)X2, Positive Energy Aura(SC), (1more spell of choice)
5-level: Breath of Life*, Darts of Life(CC)X2, Greater Vigor,
*=Domain Spell
(CC)=Complete Champion
(CD)=Complete Divine
(SC)=Spell Compendium

In my last game, a guy played this very character up till 7th level. He was very difficult to deal with - fortunately for me, the other PCs never ever helped protect him.


cranewings wrote:
Kierato wrote:

Human Cleric/10

Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 18
Feats: Selective Channeling, Augment Healing(CD), Extra Channeling, Toughness, Craft Wand, Touch of Healing(CC),
Skills:
Special Features: Channel Energy(5d6)8/day, Healing Domain (Restoration sub-domain), Glory Domain (Honor sub-domain),
Spells prepared:
0-level: Light, Stabilize, Detect Magic, Guidance
1-level: Shield of Faith*, Lesser Vigor(SC)X2, Bless, Remove Fear, (1 more spell of choice)
2-level: Remove Disease*, Close Wounds(SC)X2, Lesser Restoration, (1 more spell of choice)
3-level: Cure Serious Wounds*, Vigor(SC)X2, Mass lesser Vigor(SC), Dispel Magic
4-level: Neutralize Poison*, Seed of Life(CC)X2, Positive Energy Aura(SC), (1more spell of choice)
5-level: Breath of Life*, Darts of Life(CC)X2, Greater Vigor,
*=Domain Spell
(CC)=Complete Champion
(CD)=Complete Divine
(SC)=Spell Compendium

In my last game, a guy played this very character up till 7th level. He was very difficult to deal with - fortunately for me, the other PCs never ever helped protect him.

This was a character I wanted to play back in 3.5 (a little different, was better at destroying undead), but she would have been a halfling (inspired by Piffany from Nodwick).

Scarab Sages

Ditch the DM. Space is nice, but as many people have already said, you can't win an Arms race with the DM. I don't care how powerful you are, a Tarrasque and 4 Ancient Red Dragons are not something you'll ever be able to beat. DM's like this really grind my gears, and the only way to stop it is by negative punishment (i.e., removing yourselves to keep him from playing).


Human Paladin/10 (Warrior of Holy Light)
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18
Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Shield Focus, Tower Shield Proficiency, Extra Lay on Hands, Law Devotion(CC)
Skills:
Special Features: Lay on Hands(5d6) 13/day, Mercy(Fatigue, Sickened, Exhausted), Channel Energy(5d6)2 uses of lay on hands, Smite Evil 4/day, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Power of Faith(standard Action, at-will), Divine Bond(weapon), Aura of Resolve

This character is designed to be a tank. He will have a high AC, but a pathetic touch AC. To counter his low touch AC focus on a ring of protection. The law devotion grants a sacred bonus to AC or attack rolls for 1 minute, and can be changed as a swift action. Lay on hands is a swift action on yourself, and you add your charisma bonus to saves. Power of Faith gives you and all allies in range a slight defensive boost. This is an easy, straight-forward character. Items you want for this character:
Mithral or Adamantine Full Plate (enchanted with ghost touch early on, also Determination (APG))
Mithral Tower Shield (Ghost touch, arrow catching and arrow deflection are nice)
Ring of Deflection
Boots of Striding and Springing
Belt of Str and Con
Headband of Cha
Cloak of Minor Displacement


OK, before we get to the advice about making cracked-out character builds, I think I might know what is going on...

First of all, it is really difficult to present a challenge that will work for a 10 person party. If you want to use only a monster or two, it has to be able to 1-shot characters and be neigh invincible, or it is going to die like a chump in the first round. He has to put in a lot of work to keep a functional game going. Then a few folks start getting nit-picky about stuff, and he gets sick of the game session. By the time 4am rolls around folks there is frustration all around, and rather then sort it out, he takes the "nuclear option" and that's all folks - TPK.

Perhaps you could tell us more about the circumstances that end the campaigns in the past? Were they hard battles? Bad luck? Deadly traps? Throw Mountain Dew in your face arguments? Rocks fall from the ski and everyone dies? Do they happen in game when everyone is trying, or are they a reaction to bad feelings at the table? When you do talk to him, does he acknowledge it or reject it?

I don't know... you have a big group of friends that play till all hours of the morning, and it has been going for 5 years now... Something is wrong, but try to figure out what it is, and deal with it, rather then just attempting to destroy the last campaign (because if that is your goal, it will be the last.

It is also possible that this GM wants you to bring power-gamed characters to the table. He might think he has been "teaching" you to play "better" characters by use of lethal corrections.


Human Fighter/10
Str 18, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10

  • Shuriken (+1): +16/+16/+16/+11; 1d2+15; 19-20/X2
    Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Shuriken), Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Shuriken), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization (Shuriken), Double Slice, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (shuriken), Improved Critical (Shuriken), Critical Focus
    Skills:
    Special Features: Bravery +3, Armor Training 2, Weapon Training (Thrown +2, Heavy Blades +1)

    I know, I know, you are looking at that 1d2 shuriken damage and are not impressed. But what counts are the number to the left and right of the 1d2. 4 attacks per round (5 with haste via a potion, friendly caster, or boots of speed) and +15 damage. The biggest draw backs of a character like this is the expense, as shurikens are destroyed when they hit (and possibly when they miss). A good way around this is to have a friendly caster use Greater Magic Weapon on 50 shurikens for you. +1 to hit and damage per 4 caster levels for 1 hour per level. Two or three of these a day and you are set. Next, a devoted buffer!


  • Erghiez wrote:


    I'm posting on the Pathfinder boards because we will be having our second Pathfinder game coming up soon, and we would all like to catch the DM off guard, and actually finish a campaign before we all die during the fourth or fifth week.

    Take the Catch Off-Guard feat?

    In all seriousness, the others are right. A bad DM can't be fixed by overpowered characters, because he can just 'rocks fall, everybody dies' you. Playing massively defensive characters who have an AC of 42 and are complete adventure-phobes won't really be all that fun and the DM can still drop a plot bomb on you. You just have to find an alternative. I like BeningFascist's idea...

    Or as we'd say in Warhammer, "Get out the dread-sock!"


    Experience must be achieved, it cannot be given. He/she came seeking powerful builds, all we can do is offer those builds and let him/her learn on his/her own.


    Kierato wrote:
    Experience must be achieved, it cannot be given. He/she came seeking powerful builds, all we can do is offer those builds and let him/her learn on his/her own.

    'He' =P. I'm a He. =). But you are all right. The builds provided were very appreciated, but the advice you all have given is much more valuable.


    Pathfinder really doesn't break until you get to the higher levels, so you might last a little longer.

    Have a druid in the party. They get reincarnate as a level 4 spell, which is the lowest "come back from the dead" spell there is. Seeing people come back as all sorts of bizzare creatures might slake the DMs sadism enough to let you keep playing.


    Erghiez wrote:
    Kierato wrote:
    Experience must be achieved, it cannot be given. He/she came seeking powerful builds, all we can do is offer those builds and let him/her learn on his/her own.
    'He' =P. I'm a He. =). But you are all right. The builds provided were very appreciated, but the advice you all have given is much more valuable.

    I try not to assume. If you want anymore builds, let me know.


    Kierato wrote:
    Erghiez wrote:
    Kierato wrote:
    Experience must be achieved, it cannot be given. He/she came seeking powerful builds, all we can do is offer those builds and let him/her learn on his/her own.
    'He' =P. I'm a He. =). But you are all right. The builds provided were very appreciated, but the advice you all have given is much more valuable.
    I try not to assume. If you want anymore builds, let me know.

    I'll definitely keep it in mind, thanks much


    a druid is a good 'stay alive' char. Once you get the ability to wildshape into a an air elemental, very few things can out run you in the air and even then they probably cant out maneuver you. Read treantmonks guide on the druids for build advice, although i would recommend the wild mystic build personally.


    Okay, no build will win vs a GM that is out to get you.... give it up.

    Some very good advice out there... Torger has a good passive aggressive way to get a point across and seriously, the person that suggested the 10 others just make the point of not wanting to make up another set of characters to just go out and die uselessly is a great idea.

    I mean, if you're not having fun, why are you doing it? His house is the reason he's the GM? Dumb. Work one of the others into "Giving it a Wing" for a campaign, see if it goes! You never know, it might just end up showing him and the others there is a different way to play.

    I am the only GM in my area for 2 groups now for over a decade and run another group that I have been the only GM for since the 80s that is over a 10 hour drive. These groups are night and day different and what the one group likes, the others loathe. I then, adapt that game to the group, not just the way I and the one group like.

    Oh, and yes, it is my goal to 'Win' as a DM / GM. Sorry. My idea of winning? If at the end of the Game Night, the group is talking about the NEXT game! If they're not smiling and thanking me for almost grinding their bones to make my bread, I didn't win. I win if they are looking forward to more of me as a GM. Even if I KNOW none of them want to do it, it makes me feel like I've won.

    The guy behind the screen has got to know it is a two way street. Yeah, you need him to GM but it's awful lonely behind that screen if no one is on the other side!

    If one of you wants to DM, give it a go. Seriously, what's the worse that can happen? You kill the old GM at level 7 every campaign? >.<

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Hope some of this helps...

    Have Fun out there!! (If not, why are you there????? )

    ~ W ~

    Scarab Sages

    I would have to concur with most of the posters... if the DM is making it a competition between him and the players then the DM will always 'win'.

    You may need to sit down with your group and hash out that instead of winning... you guys want to have fun, and having your characters die frequently isn't fun.

    Having said that, if you want some build ideas that can survive a lot... my suggestion would be the Ruby Cheerleader. (this is assuming 3.5 material is still legal for your Pathfinder game)

    Using the Book of Nine Swords basically gives the PCs abilities which can be used multiple times in a day, and sometimes multiple times per encounter. Add in some additional things like Reserve Spell Feats & Devotions from WotC splat books and you can get some pretty powerful builds.

    If you are only using Pathfinder material, then I think your first step should be to have the players build characters together to look for synergy, (the channel positive/negative energy with selective channelling feats is a good combo).

    Good luck!
    [edit'd for spelling]

    RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

    You cannot beat the DM. If he wants to power trip and kill you off around 6th or 7th level, then there is not really much you can do about it. Even if you make the best characters possible for a 6th to 7th level party he just rolls in there with a CR 13 dragon or two and you are toast, no questions asked.

    If your DM seems to do this always and "gets his rocks off" by showing you guys how weak you are by killing you guys off then maybe it is time to turn the table.

    I normally would not advocate the following but if your DM is using your PCs has play toys then do your best to derail his fun. Do not stick to the story arch he has planned. "Oh there is legend of an awesome sword in a tomb? Neah I perfer a mace, nothings better. What? there is an awesome mace there too. Neah I think I will pick up achery."
    "Oh no, the local mayor has been killed, and if we do not do something the town will be over run by orcs and goblins? Really kewl, let's sit back and watch, heck let's help the orcs!"

    Play fast moving guys, Cleric (travel domain), Monk, pick up fleet feat only. When bad guys show up, run away!

    Or how about a party of experts, or commoners. Heck since you are going to die anyways have fun with it! DM says, "You find a bag of 50 gold." Farmer bob, "50 gold!!!! hot dog, I can feed my family for a couple years with that! Oh think of all the corn we can buy, oh a new chicken farm! I want to go out and buy chickens. They cost 2cp each so for 50 gold I could buy 2,500! Come on guys lets corner the market on eggs in this town!"


    If I was GMing 10 people at once, I'd want to kill them all, too.

    Like some people said above, you need to break up into smaller groups. Have somebody get an AP or a module (there's a free one here) and play a more "normal" game.


    A combination that I've found pretty useful if you find your DM sending spellcasters against your party:

    Play a cleric with the inquisition domain, which gives a +4 bonus on all dispelling rolls. Then take the divine defiance feat, which allows you to spend a turn undead use to attempt a counterspell as an immediate action. Memorize dispel magic a lot.

    Every time an enemy spellcaster tries to cast a spell, you have a good chance of dispelling it on the casters turn.

    Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

    Lack of experience and only a small amount of knowledge of the rules are only excuses, not reason, not to DM.

    My first experience with any tabletop RPG, AD&D, was with me DMing. I have no experience and no rule knowledge.

    I ran a summer's worth of games for some high school kids, but once school started I was not able to work out a schedule to play with them. One of them loved playing so much, he has started GMing. He checks in from time to time to let me know how he is doing, and it sounds like he is having a blast.

    And as for him being GM because it is his house, my regular group rotates GMs and we have had most of our games in a players home, not the GM's.

    I am not trying to insult you, or make you feel bad with all of this. I am trying to be bold enough to help you see there are other options.

    I wouldn't try to break the GMs game. That can only make things worse, and shouting is a possible outcome of that. Passive Aggressive tactics will have the same results. I would politely refuse to play with him.

    Here is how it would go:
    Talk to him privately and personally. Not over a phone or email. His place is fine, but try to do it in a neutral location. This is so if things do become heated walking away isn't awkward.

    Explain to him the things you love about the current situation, what you like about the group, and what you like about him GMing. Let him know you want to change things, and never suggest that he is the reason. There seems to be plenty of other reasons to change things, so focus on those. Stay firm, letting him know that if you can't convince him and the others in the group that you will just have to find a new group. Buy him a drink if you met in a coffee shop, bar, or restaurant, and then leave.

    Here are some ideas on how to change your situation to create more enjoyment from the games.
    -Tell your GM that you have a goal for a character to last until level 20, and that you feel concerned that every character so far has been killed. Ask him why he thinks this is, and if he blames you then ask him what you can do to ensure character survival in his games. Listen to his advice if he has any. If he doesn't, then ask him if he can alter his games slightly to help out the group. If he refuses, politely thank him for his GMing, and let him know you can't play with him anymore.

    -Because the group is so large, suggest that it split into two groups. If the group still wants to have some type of connection, have a competition between the two. This can be done in many ways, but the easiest is by both playing the same Adventure Path and having several goals for both groups. Most treasure, Most experience earned, Most enemies defeated, Most enemies converted into friends, and so on.

    -Try GMing yourself. I still suggest you should split the group for this, but if you want to do a game for such a large group, go ahead.

    Something needs to change. It needs to change fast or you are going to be burned out on this game.

    Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

    CalebTGordan wrote:

    Lack of experience and only a small amount of knowledge of the rules are only excuses, not reason, not to DM.

    My first experience with any tabletop RPG, which was AD&D, was with me DMing. I had no experience and no rule knowledge.

    I ran a summer's worth of games for some high school kids, but once school started I was not able to work out a schedule to play with them. One of them loved playing so much, he has started GMing. He checks in from time to time to let me know how he is doing, and it sounds like he is having a blast.

    And as for your friend being GM because it is his house, my regular group rotates GMs and we have had most of our games in a players home, not the GM's.

    I am not trying to insult you, or make you feel bad with all of this. I am trying to be bold enough to help you see there are other options.

    I wouldn't try to break the GMs game. That can only make things worse, and shouting is a possible outcome of that. Passive Aggressive tactics will have the same results. I would politely refuse to play with him.

    Here is how it would go:
    Talk to him privately and personally. Not over a phone or email. His place is fine, but try to do it in a neutral location. This is so if things do become heated walking away isn't awkward.

    Explain to him the things you love about the current situation, what you like about the group, and what you like about him GMing. Let him know you want to change things, and never suggest that he is the reason. There seems to be plenty of other reasons to change things, so focus on those. Stay firm, letting him know that if you can't convince him and the others in the group that you will just have to find a new group. Buy him a drink if you met in a coffee shop, bar, or restaurant, and then leave.

    Here are some ideas on how to change your situation to create more enjoyment from the games.
    -Tell your GM that you have a goal for a character to last until level 20, and that you feel concerned that every character so far has been killed. Ask him why he thinks...

    Scarab Sages

    Erghiez wrote:

    Some of the other reasons have alot to do with experience. Alot of us aren't skilled enough to DM a game appropriately. The few of us that can DM a game never really want to. We could learn to DM, but I have to admit that a couple of us nit pick alot of details. We've made a few attempts at letting a couple others try, and its always ended in disaster. I'm sure you guys have all seen the arguments over this effecting that, etc.

    We usually deal with our current DM because he actually knows the game and doesn't enjoy playing the game as much as DM'ing it. He doesn't always apply the, 'My house, my rules' nonsense, but it's come up from time to time.

    As I've mentioned, I am still fairly inexperienced with the game. I haven't played consistently enough to remember every detail I've encountered, so I am constantly re-learning as I go along.

    Our games also tend to run for several hours. Our schedule usually starts at around 6pm on friday nights and we are usually lucky if it ends at 6am the following morning. I am sure that largely has to do with our group size and constant cheetos/mountain dew jokes =)

    Erghiez, there is only one solution when inexperience is the problem... practice, practice, practice. :)

    I've DM'd my group of players for the better part of 5-6 years, and there are still times when I forget rules and such (damn you grappling!). Some of it deals with previous editions and the changes between them, other times its just something as simple as a brainfart.

    So long as your group understands that you have a new DM they should go easy on them (think about it in reverse, if you have a new player in the group... do you throw them in the deep end? Or do you ease them into it?)

    And if you are all having fun, it is all good.

    Just my 2cents.


    Have everyone play Archers! If you throw a few zen archers, fighter archers, rangers and paladin archers in the mix. You have a few classes that can use wands of cure light wounds. To make it even better every one take the leadership feat and get a whole bunch more archers! You would destroy almost anything he can throw at you.

    Would need a dispel magic available for wind wall though!

    -Venom

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