What are you talking about, Mr. Sunrise. Can I call you Tequila?I prefer Easy Rockin' Eagle or Lieutenant Hangover.
(Or just TS. Whatever lights your dynamite.)
Then I'll call you pocket lighter.
That sounds cool. Didn't WotC start printing magic gems that grant weapon properties near the end of 3.5?
And for things like weapons and armour, I'm introducing a magic gem system where gems contain the magic, not the weapon/armour/bracers/belt/ring/whatever. With a bit of time, you can take those gems off that longsword and put them onto your scimitar.
There was something with gems in the Magic Item Compendium, I think.
But this is different.
Basically, weapons only come in normal and masterwork.
Then, there's a +1 Gem for 2000 (the price for a +1 weapon's enhancement). You put that onto a masterwork weapon. You can also take it off a "+1 weapon" and add it to another masterwork weapon, to go from +1 hammer to +1 sword, or whatever you want.
To prevent shenanigans, you need 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration to "prime" the weapon for gem addition or removal. (So you can't disarm someone and rip off his gem to make his weapon useless in a couple of seconds). Also, to prevent gems being passed around all the time, additions of gems will take effect the first sunrise after you added them (removals are instantaneous).
Now, if you want a +2 weapon, you need to take your +1 weapon (i.e. mw weapon with +1 gem) and add a +2 gem. The +2 gem costs 6000gp (i.e. the same is it would cost to have a +1 weapon improved to be a +2 weapon). That goes on and on - a +5 weapon has 5 gems!
Special qualities like keen are done via transformation gems. They cost 100 gp and transform some of the weapons enhancement bonus to the desired ability (so a +1 keen weapon is created by adding a keen gem to a +2 weapon. The magic for that will cost 8100 in total, a bit more expensive than usually, but those 100 gp won't hurt anyone, and you gain flexibility, which is well worth it). That's why those gems go up to +10 (but never give you a raw bonus of +5).
Similar things are done with armours, except that gems for stuff like slick (which is a fixed price) will cost the same as the enhancement would cost, and it won't convert any enhancement.
And attribute boosters have +2, +4 and +6 gems for 4000, 12000, 20000 (two kinds: one for physical, one for mental, and specialisation gems for the specific attributes, so +2 physical and strength on a belt gives you a belt of giant strength +2).
You also get independence gems (+2, +4, +6 again, though they're not fixed to physical or mental). Which cost half as much as the corresponding attribute gems, and also must be bought in sets for stronger stuff. One such gem (or set of gems) allows you to put the gems onto another item than the intended (if you want, say, boots of strength) or to add another set of gems to one item (if you want to add dex to your belt of strength).
Two sets make the item take up no slot at all (put them on a burnt-out ioun stone and the stone will change colour and turn into a stat booster stone. Or just put them into your pocket or backpack or somewhere else).
The system enables the players to keep the weapons they prefer without giving up on stronger enhancements. It enables the GM to use any kind of enemy with any kind of item (weapon, armour, ability booster) without having to think about whether this will give one character (who has more use for a cha-booster than others, or happens to use a dagger etc.) a big advantage (or of course disadvantage).
Sometimes, the drama of having to decide whether you want to change your weapon preferences, or decide between two types of armour, or whether to destroy the expensive, but evil sword, are nice, but I want players to use the kinds of items they think fits their character concept, not what I happen to put into the adventure. And I don't like the Drow Weapon Syndrome. Plus, have you tried to re-specialise when you're a fighter and half the feats (and most of your other class abilities) are fine-tuned to a specific weapon type?
Sad truth is that the game requires you to get better loot in order to function at higher levels.
The only ways you are going to get a better weapon:
- Have enough downtime to craft (which becomes MONTHS at higher levels)
- Sell and buy better stuff
- Have a GM that puts better gear in there to make sure the martial characters don't get shafted. It is what most APs I have seen tell you to do. "Evilus Fighterus wields a bastard sword, but you should change it to a weapon used by a player."
- Quest for <your weapon>
Or you could let the martial characters run around with jokes for weapons and be useless. I know that is a lot of fun.
We are playing a "survivor" game of Serpent Skull. I am running around in a breastplate+1 at lv10, and I am the only one with a +2 weapon in the party (giving up time we SHOULD have spent exploring in order to have it enchanted). I am far and away the best equipped, and only land ten thousand gold under the WBL mark. My wife's character is missing almost 30k. Luckily, serpent skull is a pretty thought-out APG and takes our item inferiority into consideration.
We have found a good bit of expensive items, but they are complete and utter garbage. Like a rod that served as little more than a security blanket, for 60k. Or a 30k blowgun.
Because THAT makes us feel such amazement and wonder, and makes magical items into wondrous treasures.
All it makes me think is "What manner of caster thought it would be a good idea to take two months out of his life to make THIS crap?"
So, like materia from Final Fantasy 7?
And for things like weapons and armour, I'm introducing a magic gem system where gems contain the magic, not the weapon/armour/bracers/belt/ring/whatever. With a bit of time, you can take those gems off that longsword and put them onto your scimitar.That way, the players get to use the kinds of armour and weapons their sense of style of powergaming prefer.
I must confess that I never played FFVII. I was not into consoles during that time. And I fear my geriophobia (dislike of old stuff, and yes, I made that up) will keep me from playing it (I fear that the game's graphics look too bad - if they were 8-bit or 16-bit stuff like the older games, nostalgia might change it. But maybe I'll shell out the 10 bucks the game costs one day and play it. After I'm done with X, X-2, XII, and probably XIII-2 and XV when they're released. In that case, VIII and IX might get a chance, too. If only they gave in to the fans and made a remake of VII).
Anyway, I can't comment on its likeness to materia.
You could even fuss with the number of "slots" for magic gems each item/ weapon has (like FF7 did). That way, players would still have a reason to be interested in gaining new weapons rather than just more gems for their old ones."Oooh, that falchion has 5 slots! Now I can fit my 3 +1 gems and the flaming burst gem I stole off that lich!"
Nah. The gems are relatively small and you're able to put as many gems as you want on any item. There are no slots - in the minute you concentrate on the gems, they become "semi-corporeal" and when you add them to the weapon, they will "fuse" with it.
I want to do this to eliminate the need for special weapon, so this would defeat the purpose.
But there are still special weapons if you want some thing, well, special. Like the holy avenger, or flametongue. Same for armours.
I think about making "package deal gems" out of some of the special armours and weapons, but some will be unique items, like celestial armour (and they will have the +3 built in, too - though you'll be able to further improve them with gems. You just can't take away the +1,+2,+3 gems since that enhancement is part of the armour itself)
You know what my biggest beef with the "magic-mart" is? The random generation of X items of X power level. And the Y% chance to find anything else.
Which results in the following problem: The existence of items for sale that no-one demands, and the lack of things that EVERYONE would like. Completely disregarding the concept of supply and demand, making me think that each and every item-creating spellcasting NPC is pants-on-head retarded.
Yeah. That's why I've changed the availability stuff even before I decided to go gem: The general stuff is usually common and easy to get. The "commercial" item crafters who produce stuff for the "mass market" (instead of bespoke trade) will create stuff they know will sell easily.
More exotic items are usually made on demand, and when they're found in a shop, it's because someone who actually wanted one lost his (maybe had to sell it because he needed the money, or he was killed and the thing went the way of all magic items in the Pathfinder world and wound up on a shelf).
But few crafters will decide on a whim which kind of item they want to make and go make that.
In my games, magical items tend to be available by commission or rough inheritance.
Rough inheritance? I'm not familiar with that term. Is it anything like rough trade? ;-P
Why do special materials have to be special?
Is this some kind of Zen question?
Saying "I heroically slew the brutish orc warrior after it had beheaded two of my compatriots, and took this sword with the blade of enchanted obsidian from his rotting corpse" is, in my less-than-humble opinion, much cooler than saying "I heroically placed a few thousand gold pieces down in front of the merchant, and he gave unto me this sword of generic enchantment."
"I will not think my blade of enchanted obsidian will make me invincible. After all, the brutish orc warrior who beheaded two of my compatriots had it and I slew him and took it from him"
Saying "I heroically slew the brutish orc warrior after it had beheaded two of my compatriots, and took this sword with the blade of enchanted obsidian from his rotting corpse" is, in my less-than-humble opinion, much cooler than saying "I heroically placed a few thousand gold pieces down in front of the merchant, and he gave unto me this sword of generic enchantment.""I will not think my blade of enchanted obsidian will make me invincible. After all, the brutish orc warrior who beheaded two of my compatriots had it and I slew him and took it from him"
+1
As much as I hate the concept of living in a high magic world and have magic be "rare", I hate the concept of a +1 or +2 sword being ZOMG TEH AWSUM! even more laughable. The +1 flaming sword you take off the orc warlord is NOT a blade of legend. It is the week-long project of Speaks-like-snakes, the local shaman, who wanted to suck up and get a better position in the tribe.
What I do mind is that the system encourages the players to buy the same generic items over and over again.
This and the fact that players seem to think that those generic items will automatically be available no matter how expensive or uncommon they are in the world.
I really think the rules cover it well. They allow for decent access to low level items in most towns, while not making them automatically available off the shelf. Higher level items are available in cities and metropolis', but again still not walk in, available on demand shopping.
What I do mind is that the system encourages the players to buy the same generic items over and over again.This and the fact that players seem to think that those generic items will automatically be available no matter how expensive or uncommon they are in the world.
I really think the rules cover it well. They allow for decent access to low level items in most towns, while not making them automatically available off the shelf. Higher level items are available in cities and metropolis', but again still not walk in, available on demand shopping.
Yeah, and then you put yourself in a crafter's shoes. "Hmm, most adventurer types out there, coming dragging sacks of gold and gems seem to REALLY love belts, headbands, longswords, platemails, breasplates, chain shirts and cloaks."
Now, should the next thought be
"I could make a killing if I craft these kinds of things almost exclusively, and make other things on demand!"
or
"LOLOLOLOL! I am gonna make wands of hypnotic pattern, scrolls of erase, half-plates+2 shadowed, small battleaxes+3, rods of back-scratching, Orbs of Ridiculous Price-tags, and anarchic sianghams +1!"
Because as it stands, if you randomly generate magical items, magical prowess in Golarion seems to be the main cause of mental retardation in all but a few cases (player characters).
There is a reason people in the real world don't sell inferior stuff that no-one will buy. Why should it be so different in fantasy games? Or have I missed an entry in the bestiary where there is a creature that can create gold at will, and compulsively shops magical items to put in their closets?
Yeah, and then you put yourself in a crafter's shoes. "Hmm, most adventurer types out there, coming dragging sacks of gold and gems seem to REALLY love belts, headbands, longswords, platemails, breasplates, chain shirts and cloaks."
Now, should the next thought be
"I could make a killing if I craft these kinds of things almost exclusively, and make other things on demand!"
And they can do that in the larger cities where there is a steady stream of adventurers. Even most towns won't have that level of activity, and those that do are likely not going to be places where most crafters are really going to want to stick around. Gold doesn't do much good when you're dead. Those that do stick around are going to be opportunists who understand the value of their wares and adjust prices accordingly, or be part of a specific group that is already busy filling orders for that group.
The calmer towns will most likely have plenty of crafters who are smart enough to keep the materials on hand, but they generally aren't actually going to make anything until someone requests it specifically. Why spend all the adamantium on the longsword when the next customer that actually shows up want a rapier or an axe? They might have a few longswords on stock generally, but not enough to guarantee that they will always have magical or special material longswords immediately available.
Exceptions exist of course. A town that deals with lycanthropes is going to likely have a steady stock of silvered weapons of all kinds; a smith in a dwarven town will go ahead and make that mithril breastplate because he has easy access to more mithril from the smelters down the street. A town with a wizard's college will likely have +1 weapons and armor of all kinds readily available as the college has plenty of students who need to practice magic, and the college can use the money to pay for what can be very expensive consumables. A major trading hub will have access to just about anything irregardless of its actual size.
Exceptions aside, though, only large cities and metropolis' are going to see the traffic flow required for someone to justify having a wide variety of goods pre-prepared.
The odds and ends that they do have are not likely stuff they made themselves, but stuff that previous adventurers have traded them in previous deals, which means it will often be the oddball stuff that the previous adventurers found in some ancient dragon hoard that they had no use for.
I don't think item generation should be completely random, but it does need to have a random element to it. If I roll for an isolated small fishing harbor, and get a lot of mithril or adamantium items, I am going to either reroll or make adjustments; perhaps add a dungeon to the region to justify the presence of those items, perhaps change the items. Likewise, if the rolls for a dwarven city deep underground yields tridents and aquatic based gear, adjustments will be made.
Saying "I heroically slew the brutish orc warrior after it had beheaded two of my compatriots, and took this sword with the blade of enchanted obsidian from his rotting corpse" is, in my less-than-humble opinion, much cooler than saying "I heroically placed a few thousand gold pieces down in front of the merchant, and he gave unto me this sword of generic enchantment."
Soo looting the dead is now herioic?
And yes if you put heroically doing anything mundane it is silly and well uncool...whatever 'cool' is.
I mean you second one could...be "After I heroically drank down the ale...and stocialy stood to my feet battling the cruel clutchs of beer...I nobly stumble to the bar wench and and proposed a most rightouse transaction...and the wench laid me low with a stinging slap to the face'
And you could be right. I mean perhaps maybe you guys should not just treat PCs buying things like...monotone dead tones
PC:I want to buy a long sword +1
GM: You got to the M-Mart...you find it in aisle ten...take off 2,315 gps from the charter sheet.
PC: *adjust character sheet*.
I don't how many hours of fun came from I have had when as a PC I go shopping...or as a DM when the players go shopping.
If yoiu want low magic world...than you have to do two thing...beat casters with a nerf stick(but if it is low magic you should have done this already...as it is a low magic world right?)...and when putting them against the bad guys...use lesser CR creature than their level would be normal entail....or reduce the creature...Ac by 5 to 8...their DC they genberate by 5 to 8...their saving throws by 3..etc...it is not really hard to do.
Anyway the game is alot more flexable than people seem to think.
What I do mind is that the system encourages the players to buy the same generic items over and over again.This and the fact that players seem to think that those generic items will automatically be available no matter how expensive or uncommon they are in the world.
I really think the rules cover it well. They allow for decent access to low level items in most towns, while not making them automatically available off the shelf. Higher level items are available in cities and metropolis', but again still not walk in, available on demand shopping.
Yeah, and then you put yourself in a crafter's shoes. "Hmm, most adventurer types out there, coming dragging sacks of gold and gems seem to REALLY love belts, headbands, longswords, platemails, breasplates, chain shirts and cloaks."
Now, should the next thought be
"I could make a killing if I craft these kinds of things almost exclusively, and make other things on demand!"
or
"LOLOLOLOL! I am gonna make wands of hypnotic pattern, scrolls of erase, half-plates+2 shadowed, small battleaxes+3, rods of back-scratching, Orbs of Ridiculous Price-tags, and anarchic sianghams +1!"
Because as it stands, if you randomly generate magical items, magical prowess in Golarion seems to be the main cause of mental retardation in all but a few cases (player characters).
There is a reason people in the real world don't sell inferior stuff that no-one will buy. Why should it be so different in fantasy games? Or have I missed an entry in the bestiary where there is a creature that can create gold at will, and compulsively shops magical items to put in their closets?
There is also a reason that all of that useless junk is still on the shelves. Nobody wants it. All of the good stuff sold out yesterday.
You also have to remember that once a crafter begins an item, he has to finish it, or he loses all of his work when he switches to working on a new item. So unclaimed specialty orders that are never picked up will eventually be put out on the shelf for sale.
Personally, I see that as what is currently available. Anything else up to the community's price limit could still be commissioned, it just wouldn't be immediately available. If I ever get to a point that I actually have to use those rules, I would make sure that some common armor or weapons choices would be in that mix, but I wouldn't worry about if they were the exact ones that the party was using.You know what my biggest beef with the "magic-mart" is? The random generation of X items of X power level. And the Y% chance to find anything else.Ah, the Diablo phenomenon.
Yeah, that's absurd. Your DM thinks he's adding 'realism' to the game, amiright?
You know what my biggest beef with the "magic-mart" is? The random generation of X items of X power level. And the Y% chance to find anything else.Ah, the Diablo phenomenon.
Yeah, that's absurd. Your DM thinks he's adding 'realism' to the game, amiright?
But this brings up the weird question of how realistic it is that literally one of everything the PCs need/want is available, even if they can't afford it.
In my games, magical items tend to be available by commission or rough inheritance.
To clarify, I'm specifically mocking Kamelguru's DM's apparent disregard for consistency in the pursuit of blind randomness. (I know Freehold likes random stuff, which is cool because random race and level is at least consistent, or dare I say realistic.)
Adding a bit of randomness to the Magic Mart to simulate supply and demand is understandable. But if a DM's gonna simulate something, s/he should put a little thought into it. Sellers of magic bling aren't going to have a lot of useless gewgaws lying around; any seller unfortunate or foolish enough to have such baggage in stock will sell it to spendthrift noblemen for a pittance in order to create space and cash for better merchandise.
Didn't WotC start printing magic gems that grant weapon properties near the end of 3.5?
There was something with gems in the Magic Item Compendium, I think.But this is different.
[snip]
I just had a house-rulegasm. That sounds friggin' awesome.
I don't know how many hours I've sat bored to tears with the DM playing out dull uninteresting shopping. I don't enjoy shopping in real life, why would I want to play it in game?I don't how many hours of fun came from I have had when as a PC I go shopping...or as a DM when the players go shopping.
Whatever. But the point is buying magic items should be not dull, or uninteresting shopping.
So where have you gone shopping fort magic item in Real life? How can you campare the two?
It’s not because Magic Marts polish the authentic patina of medieval rust off of our lovingly crafted campaigns. Think about it; we accept all kinds of other anti-medieval trappings in our campagins: anyone of any relavance seems to know how to read and write -- even druids and simpletons. D&D women are only expected to fill medieval gender roles if they’re unwilling to wear or unattractive in a chainmail bikini. And let’s not forget that just about everyone -- even moronic orcs -- are bilingual. Even pegasi understand the common tongue, for Io’s sake!
So don’t kid yourself that Magic Marts ruin the medieval theme. No, the real reason we DMs don’t like Magic Marts is that they create a point buy subsystem. And all patriotic and red-blooded DMs instinctively know that point buy systems are Evil. Search your heart; you know this to be true.
If you still don’t see the light, I’ll explain. What happens in a Magic Mart campaign? Your players go into a dungeon, steal or loot as much junk as they can stuff into their bags of holding, and then they head back to ye olde towne Magic Mart. They sell all the treasure you gave them in the dungeon, in exchange for points [coins], and then they buy better bonuses and powers [items] with those points [coins].
And like all point buy systems, Magic Marts increase the potential for both under- and over-powered PCs in your game. One player might decide to dump all of his points into offense [a magic weapon] while ignoring defense [AC items]. And because AC is 90% dependent on items, that PC becomes a glass cannon. Which in turn results in very short encounters, frequent resurrections, and probably massive annoyance
See what I mean? Magic Marts are just a front for point buying, and point buying is the enemy of D&D. It’s everything that mustache-twirling villains stand for, and they’re using Magic Marts to subvert innocent D&Ders into point buyers. So be vigilant, and don’t let the other-skins win!
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Many of my players don't like the magic mart. They say it lessens the fun of acquiring cool new stuff, which is one of the fun elements of the game.
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Whatever. But the point is buying magic items should be not dull, or uninteresting shopping.So where have you gone shopping fort magic item in Real life? How can you campare the two?
Best Buy. 52-inch plasmas! :D
More seriously, I said "I don't enjoy shopping". Not 'I don't enjoy magic item shopping".
Quite simply, my players hate roleplaying out the shopping. It's not an interesting part of the game for them. They would much rather be exploring the dungeon and ferreting out the bad guys lurking in town.
Then how about the players make a list of items they WANT, hand it to the GM at the end of the session, the GM does his tedious rolling and checking and time-wasting on the side if he insists that the items are "rare"(tm) in his world.
Shopping IS tedious and boring. Shopping in a game where the system actively works against you and forces you to scour the world for anything level appropriate beyond level 7 is doubly so.
Personally I have learned my lesson: Never play a martial or skill character ever again.
Then how about the players make a list of items they WANT, hand it to the GM at the end of the session, the GM does his tedious rolling and checking and time-wasting on the side if he insists that the items are "rare"(tm) in his world.
Shopping IS tedious and boring. Shopping in a game where the system actively works against you and forces you to scour the world for anything level appropriate beyond level 7 is doubly so.
Personally I have learned my lesson: Never play a martial or skill character ever again.
Magic mart makes shopping easy. You get what you want then get back to the game. What I often do is email my DM the list of items I want if he is running a non magic mart games. He then sends me back a yes or no. I have not gotten a no yet. Now if I were in a more restrictive game I would probably start taking the crafting feats.
I can also cite people in podcasts who work for Paizo (IIRC) who stated you don't need to give everyone the "big 6" to compete in Pathfinder.
And they're absolutely right.
IRT OP:
I, personally, have never had a problem with magic marts. Sometimes they show up, sometimes they don't. It makes little difference.
Didn't WotC start printing magic gems that grant weapon properties near the end of 3.5?I just had a house-rulegasm. That sounds friggin' awesome.
There was something with gems in the Magic Item Compendium, I think.But this is different.
[snip]
Well, you're free to use it, Pocket Lighter. Tell me how you and your players liked it.
But the point is buying magic items should be not dull, or uninteresting shopping.
Well, some people are having a great time when they go shopping. They go on shopping sprees just to be on shopping sprees, they don't even need anything really.
Others are less enthusiastic about the whole endeavour. They don't turn grocery shopping into a memorable experience they will tell their grandchildren about. Some even fail to be excited by the idea of hunting down an item that isn't widely available. They might engage in it because they want that item, they might feel a sense of satisfaction when they finally procure it, especially if they got a decent price for it, but they will be annoyed by the process itself.
I will not presume to assume gender roles to either stance, or muse about the prevalence of the respective kinds of people among roleplayers, but I think for the sake for those guys who are bored to tears by shopping, no matter how "exciting" it might prove to others, shopping should not be an inherent part of the roleplaying experience. There should always be the option of letting it happen off-screen.
So where have you gone shopping fort magic item in Real life? How can you campare the two?
Esme's Discount Enchantments. Quality charms and talismans for reasonable prices. Great assortment of common potions, more exotic potions on demand. Side-room with "special" items for adult shoppers. "Stay for a spell and browse!"
But the point is buying magic items should be not dull, or uninteresting shopping.Well, some people are having a great time when they go shopping. They go on shopping sprees just to be on shopping sprees, they don't even need anything really.
Others are less enthusiastic about the whole endeavour. They don't turn grocery shopping into a memorable experience they will tell their grandchildren about. Some even fail to be excited by the idea of hunting down an item that isn't widely available. They might engage in it because they want that item, they might feel a sense of satisfaction when they finally procure it, especially if they got a decent price for it, but they will be annoyed by the process itself.
I will not presume to assume gender roles to either stance, or muse about the prevalence of the respective kinds of people among roleplayers, but I think for the sake for those guys who are bored to tears by shopping, no matter how "exciting" it might prove to others, shopping should not be an inherent part of the roleplaying experience. There should always be the option of letting it happen off-screen.
Unfortunately, I've found the "urge to not roleplay the shopping trip" generally eclipsed by the "urge to min-max," and people aren't looking at the bazaar of wonders so much as trying to get things they've seen in the Sears-Roebuck catalog as the most "optimal."
I assume that the Big 6 items, wands and potions of healing, and a few other items are widely available. Beyond that, esoteric item from splat book X is probably not something your character with his 10 INT and 0 Knowledge Arcana should even be knowing about.
This just in: some GMs are control freaks who feel the need to have absolute power over what sort of magic items their PCs have access to.
2nd edition did that just fine, tyvm.
...which sums up why I hate magic marts.
I want the magic item economy, or lack thereof, to be one of the elements that goes into the structure of the gameworld. A universe where you can reliably go to any moderately-sized town and reliably find physique-increasing equipment, for instance, is a much different one than one where you cannot, unless you can only shop at them if you have your adventurer's license or something equally ridiculous.
So I want magic marts to operate in a manner that's consistent with the gameworld I'm creating. But there's this attitude out there that removing or otherwise limiting or tweaking their operation isn't just breaking the fundamentals of the game, it's doing so in a way that's specifically anti-player.
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In a funny way, Kingmaker gets rid of this issue by forcing the Players to decide how they want their "Magic Mart."
Want tons of items for sale, and a high overall GP limit for your city? Better invest that time/effort to make particular buildings, multiple districts, and get to rolling on those Minor/Medium/Major item tables.
If you'd rather they be more limited, don't build those buildings, and concentrate on something else.
It's one of the great strengths of that AP, in my opinion, and allows for great flexibility both at the table and behind the scenes.
That being said, with access to basically unlimited time & GP, my players have managed to up their APL by about 1.5-2. That's also ok, since the Advanced Simple Template & Extra Mooks are always just around the corner as well.
Higher numbers vs. higher numbers, no?
Just something to think about; if the GM's out there who hate "Magic Mart" stores were to open the discussion with their players, possibly with the backdrop of the fantastic Kingmaker Adventure Path, they just may walk away surprised.
So I want magic marts to operate in a manner that's consistent with the gameworld I'm creating.
This is what I go for. By having different regions have different specialities, it's possible to establish a basic feel for that region with having to bore the players with tons of box text and unwanted history. The merchants are going to cater primarily to the local market and power groups with the better off ones doing what they can to pull in extra cash from traveling adventurers at the same time. This means if I set up a region where there is a world famous fencing school in the main city of that region, that city will have rapiers readily available, and even if none of the players ask or care about the school, they at least get the idea that rapiers are really popular around here, and that this is the place to go for finding people who are masters at making, and probably, using them.
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Random thought, probably been said before.
Have the players do the magic mart instead of the characters.
So instead of Grognar finding a chest o' gold, he beats Noobsaibhat the Mighty and takes the Axe of Kings instead. Which happened because Mike told Dave that he would like for Grognar to get this +3 Adamantine Axe as his loot. Do the same for the shopping montage, where the party has to track down the right merchant with the right connections to even have the chance to make an offer on the Staff of Gax. But Zillra the Mystic's player Bob mentioned it to Dave beforehand so he would be able to work it into the story.
Just throwing it off the cuff.
Unfortunately, I've found the "urge to not roleplay the shopping trip" generally eclipsed by the "urge to min-max," and people aren't looking at the bazaar of wonders so much as trying to get things they've seen in the Sears-Roebuck catalog as the most "optimal."I assume that the Big 6 items, wands and potions of healing, and a few other items are widely available. Beyond that, esoteric item from splat book X is probably not something your character with his 10 INT and 0 Knowledge Arcana should even be knowing about.
One more thing that I loved about Cocoon: Almost no retail exists, everyone get stuff via on-line shopping. Including the heroes.
Whatever. But the point is buying magic items should be not dull, or uninteresting shopping.So where have you gone shopping fort magic item in Real life? How can you campare the two?
Best Buy. 52-inch plasmas! :D
More seriously, I said "I don't enjoy shopping". Not 'I don't enjoy magic item shopping".
Quite simply, my players hate roleplaying out the shopping. It's not an interesting part of the game for them. They would much rather be exploring the dungeon and ferreting out the bad guys lurking in town.
Not saying you have to do anything....not saying shopping can not be boring....etc
Heck we don't sit down and play home shopping network at my table either( I have been playing for 20+ years....so that it is why it is hours of fun times).
My point is that the Magic Mart does make it boring. Because it does make it Always like mundane shopping in the RL.
On the other hand maybe in stead of usaing 'shopping' I will use seeking an magic item and those who sell them can be just as (or in my more opinion because I find dungeon crawls to be awefuly boring) excitinmg and fun adventure. Unless you are into buying illeagle items in RL(that is if you don't have a regular got to guy)...I don't think you can really compare buy what going 'shopping' for magic items can entail.
Sure I don't do it every time some body want to buy magic items...but I do it when I want to run a great urbane based adventure...
I just think alot of people just pass up the oportunity here. And Magic Marts are just a way to do so.
There's a number of ways to solve the problem of the big 6. First is to simply give them more money and then increase encounter difficulty. After they've got their big 6, they'll have money left over to spend on the more interesting items. The other requires even more work, which is to simply restructure the entire magic item pricing system.
Now fixing the magic mart problem is harder. Now one option that could have interesting results is converting to a strict barter system and simply keeping the books closed. While certainly they could memorize the base price system and work out the costs on the fly, just do appraise rolls. Throw in a few ad-hoc adjustments for things as seen fit, especially if multiple different types of items are involved. I remember reading somewhere that it is suggested that book referencing should be kept at a minimum during play, so why not during shopping trips? Also you could do things such as another guy comes in and makes a better offer while they are sitting down calculating the value of the offer.
This message is full of falsehoods and opinions stated as facts. In other words the OP and his message have been weighed and found lacking.
You want to back that up with some thing? I mean if your going to disagree with an OP you should put something on the table yourself or argue against the OPs proposition or, or...something. Otherwise this is just a fancy way of saying the OP sucks fig newtons.
I also have had my brother complain oh this treasure sucks and he seemed a little sad for getting redundant treasure. I think the big 6 items are something the player will not feel oh wow a +1 dueling backscrather about and do not exactly suck.
Here is a counter example for fighters wanting a strength boosting belt. I do not think the fighter got that 18 starting strength through not wanting to become stronger. The fighter probably always wants to become stronger and train more and if that means buying a magic belt that makes him stronger I think the fighter would want that he obviously did not get 18 strength by sitting in his noble families chair. A similar idea can be said for the wizard getting his high starting inteligence. If the wizard did not have a drive to learn he probably would not have become a wizard with all that training and if an int headband would make him smarter wouldn't he want it?
Armor and other protective items would be wanted because getting hit by monster attacks hurts.
The characters would want weapons so they could fight bad monster because as an adventurer fights break out often.
You want to back that up with some thing? I mean if your going to disagree with an OP you should put something on the table yourself or argue against the OPs proposition or, or...something. Otherwise this is just a fancy way of saying the OP sucks fig newtons.This message is full of falsehoods and opinions stated as facts. In other words the OP and his message have been weighed and found lacking.
Which is a very offensive thing of SoJ to say, because I eat fig newtons. I suck blood.
(Also, if anyone somehow missed the last sentence of my OP, my message is not entirely serious.)