My take on the ninja as a monk


Ninja Discussion: Round 1


So here it is, written as well as i can muster while too hot, too cold, and with a head stuffed like a booger pinata. please weigh in on the the ninja trick abilities (too early? too late? more? less?) and please come up with some good ideas to flesh out the 'master ninja' ability. i'm just too tired to come up with anything better right now.

Class Features
Skills: The Ninja adds Bluff, Disguise, and Survival to her list of class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninja gain proficiency with the short sword and with light armor.
Note that wearing armor interferes with the ninja's unarmored bonus to AC, but does not impede her Decisive strike or Ki abilities.

Sneak Attack: If a ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter. This ability otherwise functions as the rogue class feature of the same name, and stacks with sneak attack damage from other sources. This ability replaces the monk's unarmed damage increases after first level, though the base damage remains a d6.

Poison Use: At first level, the ninja no longer risks poisoning herself when applying poison to a weapon. At 11th level, the ninja may apply poisons as a move action.
This ability replaces Diamond Body.

Nimble Blade: At first level, the ninja recieves Power Attack as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.
This replaces the monk's stunning fist feat.

Tricky Ninja: At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter, the ninja may choose a talent from the list of rogue talents.
This replaces the monk's bonus feats at those levels.

Decisive Strike: At first level, as a full round action, the ninja may make a single attack using her ninja level instead of her base attack bonus. This may change the bonus and penalty received from her Power Attack feat, though she need not necessarily use the feat during this attack. If the ninja initiates a surprise round, she may perform this attack as a standard action. At 5th level, the ninja may deal non-lethal damage using this ability even while using a lethal weapon. At 10th level, the ninja may use this as a standard action when invisible from her Ninja Vanishing Trick.
This ability replaces the monk's Flurry of Blows ability.

Ki Pool: As a swift action, the ninja may spend one point from her ki pool to add +4 damage to her next successful decisive strike. As a swift action, the ninja may spend one ki point to increase her speed by 20 ft for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom modifier. Finally, the ninja may spend 1 ki point to add a +4 dodge bonus to AC for one round.
These abilities replace the monks normal ki abilities at 4th level.

Ninja Vanishing Trick: At 4th level, the ninja begins to master the art of deception. As a move action, the ninja may create an effect like that of Obscuring mist centered on her location. This ability may be used once per ninja level per day.
At 10th level, the ninja may spend two ki points to turn invisible as for one round per 2 ninja levels while using this ability; this otherwise functions as per the spell Invisibility.
This replaces slow fall.

Ninja Duplication Trick: At 10th level, the ninja may use a swift action to create 1d4+1 duplicates, with an additional duplicate per 2 ninja levels after 10. These duplicates are indistinguishable from the ninja except by touch and smell, and occupy their own squares as normal creatures. All must appear within 5 feet per ninja level of the ninja. The Ninja may create no more than 5 x her ninja level duplicates per day, and may willingly reduce the number she creates each use to conserve them.

Ninja Substitution Trick: When using Abundant step, the ninja may swap places with another creature or object of up to the ninja's size category. If a creature is unwilling, it recieves a will save (DC 10+ ½ ninja level +Wisdom modifier) to resist. Should the creature resist, the ninja appears adjacent to it in a square of her choosing.

Master Ninja: The ninja increases the size of her ki pool to her ninja level plus her wisdom modifier. When spending a ki point with the Ninja Vanishing Trick, it functions as per Greater Invisibility instead of Invisibility.


Interesting... And now for questions for clarification...

Is that really all decisive strike does?

Do you lose anything other than Diamond Body to get Poison use?

Why can't the Ninja just spend a Ki Point to do the Obscuring Mist trick?

--Also, should it be amended to where the Ninja can see just fine in their own mist?

Would it not be easier to just make the Duplication Trick use a Ki Point or two?
--Wait, how exactly do the duplicates work?
----Are they just illusions? If illusions, can they move? As good as you or can do stuff? If so, can they attack? This needs to be addressed.

When do they get Ninja Substitution?
--Does it cost anything to use?

Does Master Ninja ability replace the normal Monk Capstone ability?


1. For now, yes. ideas? I had considered something along the lines of vital strike, but i wasn't sure how that stacked up with the rest of the abilities i gave it.
2. No. Does losing immunity to poison seem out of proportion to poison use?
3. Not a bad idea. Perhaps cut down the cost of invisibility to 1 point then? Not sure if that would be best handed out to all or should there perhaps be a rogue talent similar to the red dragons 'smokesight' ability?
Also noticed, the duration should be a round per ninja level.

4. The duplicates are illusory, but they may only be revealed through touch, taste or smell. They move, sound, and look just like the ninja at the time she creates them.
What would be a good duration?

5. Ninja Substitution is a new use for the abundant step ability.
Does it seem powerful enough to warrant a cost other than the abundant step's normal ability? perhaps limiting it to unattended items and willing creatures?

Yes, Master Ninja replaces perfect self.


a monk can only be lawgul, you would have to ditch that part as a ninja variant of the monk.


right now sneak attack does not appear to replace Anything. It slaways truck me as the logical Replacement for Flurry in a ninja variant. I am not so fond of your decisive strike.


doesn't it kinda fit though? a master spy trained and extremely disciplined to master the class's complicated techniques?

Sneak attack currently replaces the monk's increasing unarmed damage


What I don't see is why this should be a monk archetype. How much monk is in this ninja after the substitutions?


ahh.... becuase it makes only a little more sense over the rogue.....

as it stands the ninja is more powerful than the core rogue... and well you have gripers.


default wrote:

1. For now, yes. ideas? I had considered something along the lines of vital strike, but i wasn't sure how that stacked up with the rest of the abilities i gave it.

2. No. Does losing immunity to poison seem out of proportion to poison use?
3. Not a bad idea. Perhaps cut down the cost of invisibility to 1 point then? Not sure if that would be best handed out to all or should there perhaps be a rogue talent similar to the red dragons 'smokesight' ability?
Also noticed, the duration should be a round per ninja level.

4. The duplicates are illusory, but they may only be revealed through touch, taste or smell. They move, sound, and look just like the ninja at the time she creates them.
What would be a good duration?

5. Ninja Substitution is a new use for the abundant step ability.
Does it seem powerful enough to warrant a cost other than the abundant step's normal ability? perhaps limiting it to unattended items and willing creatures?

Yes, Master Ninja replaces perfect self.

i like the idea of the ninja having immunity too poison and poison use... it gives that "i have spent the last several years building up an immunity to iocaine powder" feel to it.


The issue with losing poison immunity to gain poison use is that there are several levels in between the ability you lose & the ability you gain. That's a bit of a problem for a substitution. I didn't notice anything that takes away the Monk's first level bonus feat, so you could probably drop that & give it Poison Use at level 1 while keeping their immunity to poison.

I'd say 1 point for the regular invisibility & when you get greater invisibility, have that cost 2 points, allowing you do either, depending on the circumstances.

As for Decisive Strike... hmmm... that's a tricky one... Perhaps the single attack at Full BAB could include the ability to use the Power Attack feat with it at no penalty. That's still weaker than flurry, but mostly later on though... so, perhaps include a Vital Strike-like mechanic at later levels, such as "double weapon's damage dice at level 8 & triple it at level 15." Between that & Power Attack all done at Full BAB with no penalties should be at least vaguely close enough to Flurry in power, without leaving potential for Sneak Attack to become an over-powered part of the class. Plus, the added damage potential gives more of a Death Attack feel without it actually being Death Attack.


Steelfiredragon wrote:
a monk can only be lawgul, you would have to ditch that part as a ninja variant of the monk.

so were ninja's. Instead of temples they had clans. Ninja traditionaly had chain of commands, rules of dealing with employers, they are just as lawful as monk.

which is why the ninja as a rogue alternative, is damn wierd. han solo is never becoming a damn ninja , ever


Alignment restrictions on anything other than Paladins and Clerics are the Devil.


No, the Devil is Dick Clark.

But seriously. I find most alignment restrictions to be pretty arbitrary. Assassin evil? Depends on the person & the cause. Monk lawful? Again, depends on where he learned his stuff. Case & point, most drunken masters.

Paladin? Yes. Definitely should be a Good, preferably lawful. Should there be an evil version called something else? Sure(preferably one you can seemlessly switch to & from in game to mark a descent into evil or climbing out of the darkness). Clerics, makes sense.


InfernosReaper wrote:

No, the Devil is Dick Clark.

Really? We always thought he was just a lich.


It was revealed in the 90s by the prophet Bill Hicks. It makes sense when you think about it. He's ageless & degenerated music & culture with garbage like Rick Astley.


ikarinokami wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:
a monk can only be lawgul, you would have to ditch that part as a ninja variant of the monk.

so were ninja's. Instead of temples they had clans. Ninja traditionaly had chain of commands, rules of dealing with employers, they are just as lawful as monk.

which is why the ninja as a rogue alternative, is damn wierd. han solo is never becoming a damn ninja , ever

In Japan mythos/lore and in respect to their application in Pathfinder I'd say ninjas are chaotic evil. The Oniwaban are a good place to start drawing the lines. They are far from Shaolin et al.


Ninja aren't sociopaths that murder indiscriminately. They work by contract with a given employer and more than likely only work with specific employers or types of employers - local daimyo, the shogun, the bishop of the temple, etc. Without a contract for a specific assassination, ninja do not kill. Ninja are primarily spies and scouts for the government, military or perhaps the church.

Ninja are required to follow the rules of their clan, deferring to the clan leader on difficult matters. There is an honor between ninja clans and ninja clan members.

When not on ninja missions, ninja are always developing networks of informant, or infiltrating various organizations to have operaters within many structures of society.

Are ninja evil, most probably are, but they are very lawful members of society. It just depends on which society they exist. In a lawful good society they would not fit. But in a police state like Japan, Ninja are extremely lawful.

Chaotic evil? No, not even close.

GP

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