As mentioned above, I have a new player that one of my existing players has brought into our game (just starting a game of Kingmaker with mostly newbies). When I first asked him (the new guy) what kind of character he wanted to play, he pushed for playing a ninja (the playtest version). I was hesitant (we already have a rogue), but granted him the ability to play it, as long as he rebuilt the character with subsequent errata and if anything was immensely broken, he'd have to adapt. So far this playtest, core, APG, and Psionics Unleashed (by Dreamscarred Press) are the only things allowed.
After two sessions he's wanting to go back and swap his race for the Elan so he can use it to become a Pyrokineticist at 6th level (power points are granted by the race). He's wanting to take a bunch of the Psionic feats. The group is predominately role-players, whereas this guy is 110% a roll-player. When the other PCs ask him why he's taking this approach, he becomes very defensive and doesn't wanna discuss it.
My issue with all of this is that it feels like he's trying to munchkin his way into a character more powerful than the others. The rogue already is being out-shined a bit by the ninja's build at lower levels and seems to be irritated and feeling undervalued.
Which brings me to the problem... at this point I'm torn between just granting the character the build, saying no, or just telling the guy I think he needs to find a different group (one more munchkin tolerant). Before making a decision, I have decided to consult the wisdom of the Paizo boards. I feel bad with the idea of dismissing him, but I have two other people wanting into a full game (six PCs currently) and I wouldn't keep him if not for the friendship of the inviting PC.
I'd appreciate any advice or perspectives on the matter. I've tried to clarify the situation, but if more info is needed, I'd be happy to supply it.
One possible perspective is that he wishes to use the psionic-pyro angle to try to emulate a character inspired by anime-ninja. Maybe he doesn't think anyone would get the reference, or possibly he would be made fun of for it?
Example:(far from restricted to) Naruto or Flame of Recca.
As to if he is trying to be a munchkin or not...I sincerely doubt that anyone not there could answer the question with complete certainty. In addition; if someone is or isn't would be completely based on that specific group of players and their group style. Some tables are perfectly fine with things that other tables would throw a fit over as "too much".
Edit: I would also like to say, that the player being willing to change/alter his character based on performance issues/beta/final changes is a mark in his favor in my own personal book.
My thoughts? Yeah, tell him to move on. If everyone's having fun, it's one thing, but it does sound like this guy is trying to make a push for power, and I suspect it's to make everyone see how awesome he is. His ego will flare up the second his character gets endangered. Can him, if only to save the arguement about how being cut in half by a demon prevents him from using his ki heal ability, or why, as a ninja, he should be able to out run an arrow. Or how he can't jump into a volcano and swim to the otherside of the world.
In before Ninja hate!
Before making a decision, I have decided to consult the wisdom of the Paizo boards.
Hahahahahaha...oh wait you are serious.
Ok all kidding aside. Have you talked to the other players about removing him? Have the come to you? Hard feeling will exist most likely...but your entire game could fall apart here. You really need to sit at the table and discuss this with your group more than the people on the boards. That is the most wise and really the only advice anybody here can honestly give with your current action. After you talk to everybody and you still need to talk it over with strangers ..well we will be here for you.
Personaly I would talk to his friend first in private about your concerns... and see if you can get something about his RPing back ground. Than I would say have a private chat with him...including his friend if he is willing and able to back you up.
See if this can correct his play style...if not than let him go.
But really talk to your players first and work it from there.
You do know that if he becomes an Elan, he loses all his class levels and should become a first level character. An Elan only retains fragments of his former memories and life. He would effectively lose the ninja levels. And if you are a kind DM you could let him rebuild up to the current party level. Flavor-wise I think he should be a first level character.
Though if you do make him a first level character, you could have him discover parts of his past life through the other characters. Could be fun for them and role-play at least.
I honestly have no idea how pyro would make his character more powerful
My personal opinion is that it should be a group decision. If the rest of the group is fine with his playing style and has no problems with him changing around his character like that then I'd probably grin and bear it. If he starts causing problems with your ability to effectively run the game then it's another issue.
I also agree with the suggestion that if he wants to play another race he should create a new character. Good campaigns are somewhat dependent (IMHO) with consistency and having a character suddenly change races without reincarnation has an impact on that consistency.
As mentioned above, I have a new player that one of my existing players has brought into our game (just starting a game of Kingmaker with mostly newbies). When I first asked him (the new guy) what kind of character he wanted to play, he pushed for playing a ninja (the playtest version). I was hesitant (we already have a rogue), but granted him the ability to play it, as long as he rebuilt the character with subsequent errata and if anything was immensely broken, he'd have to adapt. So far this playtest, core, APG, and Psionics Unleashed (by Dreamscarred Press) are the only things allowed.
After two sessions he's wanting to go back and swap his race for the Elan so he can use it to become a Pyrokineticist at 6th level (power points are granted by the race). He's wanting to take a bunch of the Psionic feats. The group is predominately role-players, whereas this guy is 110% a roll-player. When the other PCs ask him why he's taking this approach, he becomes very defensive and doesn't wanna discuss it.
My issue with all of this is that it feels like he's trying to munchkin his way into a character more powerful than the others. The rogue already is being out-shined a bit by the ninja's build at lower levels and seems to be irritated and feeling undervalued.
Which brings me to the problem... at this point I'm torn between just granting the character the build, saying no, or just telling the guy I think he needs to find a different group (one more munchkin tolerant). Before making a decision, I have decided to consult the wisdom of the Paizo boards. I feel bad with the idea of dismissing him, but I have two other people wanting into a full game (six PCs currently) and I wouldn't keep him if not for the friendship of the inviting PC.
I'd appreciate any advice or perspectives on the matter. I've tried to clarify the situation, but if more info is needed, I'd be happy to supply it.
Open honest and respectful communication.
Have a polite little private sit down with this player and talk about the groups play style and what he wants out of his character. If he wants to play a pyromancer ninja talk to him about more appropriate ways to accomplish the same flavor of character while remaining within appropriate level limits. If after this conversation he is unwilling to budge from the overpowered munchkin flaming ninja from hell, then perhaps you should either A) suggest this isn't the right group for him, or B)repeatedly humiliate and/or kill his munchkin and pretend it's the roll of the dice. Depends on how petty you want to be. My recommendation is to take the high road. It's a bette long term plan.
People have fun in different ways. If your group has fun by being restrictive (elitist role-players) instead of unrestictive (munchkin roll-players) then you need to be very careful who you allow in your games. Gamers in general have way too much ego and when styles clash feelings will get hurt. If your group can't compromise and learn to have fun despite inherent differences then the ninja player should be let go for his own sake.
Whenever you're in a situation like this you should always ask yourself "am I being unreasonable?". You'd be surprised how often your inner voice answers, "yes".
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Just let him know in black and white terms. You guys are ROLE players. Min/Maxing just isnt you guys. If he cant back up why he makes certain choices with his characters then he cant do it. Remind him and yourself; In this pen and paper world: YOU ARE ZOD!!! Your will be done. Of course you'll pull this terms he can understand. Some people just dont get along with each other, theres nothing wrong with that as long as there is respect for one another. Regardless of the outcome: Have a random encounter where Steam Punk Cybernetic Ninjas fight Undead Pirates. Toss in Power Armor wearing Dinosaurs with Samurai School girls and watch the brain matter of all your players make pretty patterns on the walls. J/K! Regardles, its your show, run it how you see fit. At the very least talk to the player who brought him in and get some feedback and/or back up from that player. Thats all I got.
@Rathendar and @Ironic Disaster - I personally have no issues with a ninja concept. One of the players is a monk with 2 levels splashed in rogue. He took the levels in rogue to build his concept of a monk trained in a 'cobra-sytle' of martial arts. From a role playing perspective, the monk/rogue comes off as a flavorful character and the actual ninja has had opportunities to have his moment in the spotlight, but always just blows it off. Where the monk will stop fighting a foe to shield a downed comrade, the only thing the ninja seems concerned about it damage output (I have suggested a fighter BTW).
As far a future arguments, I do see this being an issue. Every inch given is being exploited into a mile, and I'm already wary that the metagaming may become an issue as well.
@John Kretzer - I had a talk with the player who brought the ninja to the game, but his thinking is that the build won't be too powerful (on paper). The thing that made me feel like he was trying to exploit the system was that he wanted to gain all these psionic feats and not take a single level in any psionic class (except the prestige class). I pointed out that there's no way to gain access to any magical prestige classes without levels as a spellcaster and that gaining a psionic prestige class without a single psionic level felt a little abusive. :\
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@Karel Gheysens & @Daedryn - These sounds like great ideas... all I really want out of this (as well as the majority of other players) is to have a reason for all of this in a roleplaying sense. I hated in 3e/3.5e when players modge-podged a bunch of classes together without reason just to get a slightly more powerful build or gain more powers. I think I'll have to sit down with both of them before next game and tactfully clear the air. I've offered him the option of coming in as an equal leveled Elan Soul-Knife (he has expressed splashing levels if he has to in gaining psionics). With a sorceress (elemental blaster), monk/rogue, and rogue/ranger (last two splashed 2 levels) the ninja is kinda redundant to what's already there.
@ProfessorCirno - A 15-ft whiplike weapon dealing 1d8 that can sneak-attack as a ranged touch attack without the armor restriction of a normal whip for starters? If I bring in any fire-protected enemies, he becomes absolutely useless... if not his damage output is going to be higher than the rogue or monk with less weaknesses.
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After reading the remaining posts, I would first like to thank everyone who has posted and given their thoughts. It has become apparent the the best approach is going to be first, talking with the other group member privately so he doesn't feel like I'm ganging up on him, then calling the ninja and the player who introduced him for a chat. I'll let him know the overall tone of the group and make some suggestions as to what may accomplish his goals.
I also will spell it out in plain english that the group (a pre-existing dynamic) is heavy role players. If he isn't excited about roleplaying like they are, he's gonna have lot of non-combat down time where he may be bored, and that it's not okay to try to hustle this part of the game along as the other characters enjoy these parts (even his introducing friend).
I do often ask myself if I'm being unreasonable, and perhaps I am with the build, but at the same time, I have to ask if I'm unreasonable for allowing someone to play in a group of six that kills the fun...? :\