Invisible Scrying Sensor

[Matthias_DM]

Under Divination School (scrying) in the book... the scrying sensor is an invisible sensor that can be noticed with a DC 20+ spell level Perception check.

Couple questions:
1) What is meant by "to notice the scrying"? Does it mean, you feel funny... or do I tell a player "you are being scried upon? Why would a Barbarian know that?

2) Is the 20 + spell level check including the +20 for the object being invisible?

[Kolokotroni]

How do you normally handle it if a barbarian resists a spell with a saving throw? I would put it along the same lines of detail. In some groups you just know 'something' is going on, others require a spellcraft check to sort out the details, and others you know automatically who cast the harmful spell at you. I would have a similar standard for the scrying perception check.

[Starglim]

1) The scrying sensor is a physical object, invisible, but physically detectable by some other means not described in detail, maybe air currents, disturbed cobwebs, an odd noise or smell, a change of temperature, a static charge or something similar. Anyone who makes their Perception check realises that something is there looking at them. A barbarian might not know it's a spell, but he knows very well what it feels like to be watched.

2) Yes, the DC includes all necessary modifiers, which implies that whatever gives away the sensor is not particularly hard to perceive. Higher-level spells create more stealthy sensors.

[Matthias_DM]

I'm not so sure about that.

Let's Say you have a 9th Level spell... so... it's a DC 29 to detect the invisible sensor? To know that you are being scried upon. At that level, making a DC 29 check is pretty cake and there would be no safe way of scrying on someone else.

Now, if it's a DC 49 for people who cannot detect invisible things, then that makes more sense... that is a difficult save and it also lends to the (by that level) benefit of being able to see invisible things... making the check waaaay easy if you have detect invisibility going or the like. Otherwise, scry seems pretty useless... after all, what info can you gather form someone who knows they are being watched.

This is a very long winded *bump*. Discuss more plz.

[DMFTodd]

:: Necromancy since it came up in my game::

I thought a character always knew when they have to make a save?

So, first off, they're going to get the perception check looking around trying to figure out what is going on. (I think it's just the DC29, not an extra +20 for being invisible). If you do spot the sensor, do you automatically know what it is? Spellcraft check?

Can the scryed on person also make - what - a spellcraft check to recognize the active spell that caused the will save to begin with?

Doesn't this mean that a wizard probably always knows when he's being scryed on?

[Kayerloth]

No, they know when they successfully save, not when they have to make one.

As for spotting the scrying sensor. I agree it's DC=20+spell level. I don't think one automatically knows what it is and yes spellcraft or knowledge arcana could both be appropriate in identifying what is being seen. And by anyone noting the sensor not just the target of the scrying.
And I don't agree with Matthias' assumption the Perception check to note the sensor is anywhere near automatic (i.e. 'cake') even at that level (I'd still need something like +13 to +17 for my wizard at 18th lvl to get to a 50/50 chance). Though I would agree Scrying vs higher level targets is likely to be difficult at best I think it stems more from the many possible protection(s) against it than the ease of noting the sensor.

From the low teens onward mine tended to run Detect Scrying at all times so yes mine certainly took note rather quickly of any scrying attempts around him and at least once early on it resulted in a some very surprised foes as my wizard and his companions used Teleport to land in their laps (after an opposed check as per Detect Scrying gave me a visual as well as direction and distance to them/him)