Is there a pricing convention adding feats to magic items ?


Rules Questions


So for example

Stick +1 with power attack feat, which lets you power attack with the stick

is the a pricing convention for feats ?

like number of feat pre-req squared x some thousands gold


Phasics wrote:
is the a pricing convention for feats ?

Nope. Just kinda have to hope that the feat mimics something on the chart really.

Quote:
like number of feat pre-req squared x some thousands gold

Spell Parry has same cost as improved grapple?


Generally adding feats to items is discouraged because feats are meant to be unique, just like class abilities.


While adding a feat to a magic item is generally discouraged, I think that SKR has said (possibly on some other board) that lacking another basis for pricing the feat, it should cost about 5k, plus 5k per prerequisite feat. So a +1 Long Sword of Power Attack would cost about 7k, but a +1 Long Sword of Spring Attack would cost about 17k.


Really? So a 20th level character with a 800k+ budget can buy something on the order of 100 feats on their equipment? That seems a bit excessive to me I guess.

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Phasics wrote:
is the a pricing convention for feats ?

This is very hard to do, and you have to follow the standard creation rules.

You seem to want to jump to a formula, but maybe you don't realize the formulas are the last resort pricing method. In other words, if you manage to get to the formula then you are making a very strange item.

The first choice method is "find another item that does what you want to do."

In the case of +1 magic weapon (for example), there is already an item (it uses the formula.)

Your second choice is to look for "similar power" item. So if power attack grants you -4 to hit and +8 damage, then you need to look at an item that is similar in power. It needs to be a +X bonus to a magic item and it is going to cost a lot. A +4 enhancement is worth +4/+4 and 4 flaming is 4d6 (14 damage) a difference of -4 atk and +10 dmg. So roughly a +4 enhancement.
If you granted Power Attack (as the feat) then the difference of +2 dmg you would have is worth the "feat."

So power attack would (by the pricing rules) be worth roughly +4 weapon enhancement. So a +1 Power Attack weapon would cost 5*5*2000 = 50,000 gp.


James Risner wrote:
Phasics wrote:
is the a pricing convention for feats ?

This is very hard to do, and you have to follow the standard creation rules.

You seem to want to jump to a formula, but maybe you don't realize the formulas are the last resort pricing method. In other words, if you manage to get to the formula then you are making a very strange item.

The first choice method is "find another item that does what you want to do."

In the case of +1 magic weapon (for example), there is already an item (it uses the formula.)

Your second choice is to look for "similar power" item. So if power attack grants you -4 to hit and +8 damage, then you need to look at an item that is similar in power. It needs to be a +X bonus to a magic item and it is going to cost a lot. A +4 enhancement is worth +4/+4 and 4 flaming is 4d6 (14 damage) a difference of -4 atk and +10 dmg. So roughly a +4 enhancement.
If you granted Power Attack (as the feat) then the difference of +2 dmg you would have is worth the "feat."

So power attack would (by the pricing rules) be worth roughly +4 weapon enhancement. So a +1 Power Attack weapon would cost 5*5*2000 = 50,000 gp.

that's all well and good for power attack but not all feats grant clear cut numerical bonuses

combat reflexes for example that gives you bonus attacks of opportunity for higher dex dosen't give a clear numerical benefit.

or the Rhino Charge , ready a charge again tactically useful but no numerical benefit

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Phasics wrote:

combat reflexes for example that gives you bonus attacks of opportunity for higher dex dosen't give a clear numerical benefit.

or the Rhino Charge , ready a charge again tactically useful but no numerical benefit

Items tend to be priced by how useful they are to the PC they can most benefit.

For Combat Reflexes, I'd go with the 5000 (approx) gp from Lion's Shield.

For Rhino Charge, there isn't anything similar that came before. There isn't a PF "move as swift" item or exact replacement. This is an example of SKR's suggestion. When left without anything to base the price, start at 5k gp and add for pre-reqs.


To follow within the generic price structure, I would state that the price for feats or class features would be as follows:

(number of prerequisites plus 1) squared times 5,000 gp.

example 1: power attack
Number of prerequisites: 0
Total cost: 5k gp

example 2: evasion
Number of prerequisites: 1 (e.g. class monk)
Total cost: 25k gp

example 3: improved evasion
Number of prerequisites: 3 (monk class, evasion, monk level)
Total cost: 80k gp

That's about 10% of the budget of a 20th level character. If you're following budget allocation rules, that'd be roughly 40% of the character's defense budget.

Sovereign Court

In 3.5 feat granting items generally began at 8,000gp, 5,000gp is far too low imo and in most cases 8,000gp is to. As a DM I would go with a simple no you cannot make/buy an item that replicates that feat - it will save a lot of trouble imo.


James Risner wrote:
Phasics wrote:
is the a pricing convention for feats ?

This is very hard to do, and you have to follow the standard creation rules.

You seem to want to jump to a formula, but maybe you don't realize the formulas are the last resort pricing method. In other words, if you manage to get to the formula then you are making a very strange item.

The first choice method is "find another item that does what you want to do."

In the case of +1 magic weapon (for example), there is already an item (it uses the formula.)

Your second choice is to look for "similar power" item. So if power attack grants you -4 to hit and +8 damage, then you need to look at an item that is similar in power. It needs to be a +X bonus to a magic item and it is going to cost a lot. A +4 enhancement is worth +4/+4 and 4 flaming is 4d6 (14 damage) a difference of -4 atk and +10 dmg. So roughly a +4 enhancement.
If you granted Power Attack (as the feat) then the difference of +2 dmg you would have is worth the "feat."

So power attack would (by the pricing rules) be worth roughly +4 weapon enhancement. So a +1 Power Attack weapon would cost 5*5*2000 = 50,000 gp.

I think the +4 enhancement for power attack is set too high. Comparing three magic items from your example in terms of attack and damage bonusses:

+5 weapon: +5 attack + 5 damage
+1 4*flaming weapon: +1 attack + 15 (4d6+1) damage
+1 power attack weapon: -3 attack +9 damage

Comparing these, I'd say that it definately isn't equivalent to a +4 enhancement. A +2 enhancement seem more fitting to me:

+3 weapon: +3 attack + 3 damage
+1 2*flaming weapon: + 1 attack +8 damage.

If, as many assume, attack bonusses are worth more than damage, then it is still kind of weak, especially considering that it is depending on your BaB to be high enough to grant the full bonus.

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Verik Jarrow wrote:
In 3.5 feat granting items generally began at 8,000gp, 5,000gp is far too low imo and in most cases 8,000gp is to. As a DM I would go with a simple no you cannot make/buy an item that replicates that feat - it will save a lot of trouble imo.

Nothing changed from 3.5 to here, the only difference is in 3.0 they quoted the 5k / 10k rules for items with feats. But every time they spoke in length, they said the static values were "fall backs" when you couldn't find a suitable existing item or another item of similar power.

HaraldKlak wrote:

+1 power attack weapon: -3 attack +9 damage

A +2 enhancement seem more fitting to me:

+3 weapon: +3 attack + 3 damage
+1 2*flaming weapon: + 1 attack +8 damage.

If, as many assume, attack bonusses are worth more than damage, then it is still kind of weak, especially considering that it is depending on your BaB to be high enough to grant the full bonus.

+1 atk = 2.5 dmg

So, revisiting this, lets work it out on the best point:
Barbarian with Two Handed weapon -6 atk + 18 dmg
-6 * 2.5 + 18 = 3.0
+1 atk + 1 dmg = 3.5

So actually +1 weapon bonus looks good, but considering a 20th Barbarian is never going to miss even with -6 it becomes a very muddy pool (85% chance to hit with it vs CR 20 AC 36.) In fact without the PA you would cap at 95% to hit.

I agree with you, maybe +2 is more balanced.


Yar!

This is difficult, and you will have to balance for each feat if you do. But there is precedence for this in pathfinder.
Mighty Cleaving lets you use the cleave feat. It is a +1 property.

Just throwing this out there because it hasn't been mentioned yet (alluded to, but not explicitly stated).

~P


The fact is that not all feats are created equal, either from prerequisites or game design. Rings of swimming are almost twice as good as skill focus: swim and can be had for a mere 2,500. Endurance is so useless its used as a "feat tax" in order to get feats that might be too good otherwise.

Whirlwind attack takes so many feats that it may as well be a fighter class feature, and persistent spell (the where one you need to make two saves against the spell) is game breaking. The best thing to do is to eyeball it yourself. No formula is going to compare to even a modicum of human judgment here.

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vip00 wrote:
Really? So a 20th level character with a 800k+ budget can buy something on the order of 100 feats on their equipment? That seems a bit excessive to me I guess.

That is EXACTLY why you shouldn't put feats in magic items.

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