|
I was erading through the Pathfinder module Mask of the Living God and I noticed (SPOILER ALERT)that at one point you end up on a barge that is captained by a lvl 4 Dwarf expert. i was thinking , "this doesn't feel like I am a hero."
When a barge captain is of a high level that you, that dose not inspire me much. And to me this is a problem, because that is what I am looking for from an rpg. i want to save the world, and feel like I am one of the most powerful people of that world.
On that note, can any one tell me how the adventure paths play out? Do they progress upward and give you the feeling of being a super human hero?
I am still in the process of putting together my first group and I have not been able to play in an actual game yet, so my knowledge is limited.
thank you in advance.
Unless the captain is wearing a sign that says "level 4 expert" i don't know how that would make your character feel less heroic.
I know i have a tenancy to look more heroic when i cross the river and save the girl than when i drown on the river en route, so i'll happily take a captain with more ranks in profession sailor.
I would advise you to keep reading. Mask of the living god, iirc, is part one of a three part series of modules. By the end, the pcs should be "heroic" seeming, being something like 10th level or so. Take a look through guide to the river kingdoms. Most of the npc writeups in that top out at around 7th. Also bear in mind, a 4th level expert is hardly a threat to a group of 1st level pcs. Npc classes are just that, non-heroic, non-player characters.
Another way to look at it is this: did any of the hobbits seem all that heroic when leaving the shire? Especially when compaired to other characters like gandalf or aragorn? But, midway through the books, these 4 unassuming halflings are some of the most important people on middle earth.
If it still doesn't feel right, there really isn't any edict forcing you to start at first level.
I was erading through the Pathfinder module Mask of the Living God and I noticed (SPOILER ALERT)that at one point you end up on a barge that is captained by a lvl 4 Dwarf expert. i was thinking , "this doesn't feel like I am a hero."
When a barge captain is of a high level that you, that dose not inspire me much. And to me this is a problem, because that is what I am looking for from an rpg. i want to save the world, and feel like I am one of the most powerful people of that world.
On that note, can any one tell me how the adventure paths play out? Do they progress upward and give you the feeling of being a super human hero?
I am still in the process of putting together my first group and I have not been able to play in an actual game yet, so my knowledge is limited.
thank you in advance.
What RPGs have you played in the past?
I see it a little differently from you I guess. A super powered being in a world full of normals is not in my defination a hero. Like wise I find lower level characters to be heroic more so in a certain sense than a 20th level character. But that is just me.
Though a 4th level expert(NPC class) could be really less powerful than a 1st level PC class. So there is that aspect of it you might be missing. If you still have issues with it just dreop his level to 1st. It is your game after all.
I was erading through the Pathfinder module Mask of the Living God and I noticed (SPOILER ALERT)that at one point you end up on a barge that is captained by a lvl 4 Dwarf expert. i was thinking , "this doesn't feel like I am a hero."
This has been said already, but I'll repeat it to have a complete response: The guy's not wearing a name tag with class and level information.
And that's not all there is: the guy might have a "4" written down as his level, but that isn't really the same as a level 4 character. He's an expert, which is an NPC class. NPC classes are significantly weaker than the "real" classes. The rules say that a character with only NPC class levels has a CR of 1 less than one with PC class levels, and I'd actually argue that the gap gets wider the higher you go. A level 4 expert might not be that far away from a level 4 rogue, but a level 15 expert is not nearly so impressive as a level 15 rogue. Or would be, if there were that many level 15 experts (but more on that later).
Even beyond that, NPCs are weaker than PCs. Their CR is 1 less than their class levels (2 less when we're talking about NPC classes, but even an NPC fighter 4 is only CR 3). That's because their creation guidelines are often not as good as that for player characters, meaning that PCs will be faster, stronger, tougher, smarter, prettier, etc. Together with a much less generous allotment of gear, it all means that NPCs can't measure up to PCs at the same level.
Some special NPCs (usually the Adventure Path's final boss and maybe a very small number of other characters) get the "hero treatment". They call it differently, but they basically get better ability scores and equipment that is worth as much as a PCs. Such characters are set back on even footing with the PCs (i.e. their CR equals their class level)
To summarize: The guy might be the same level as the characters, but his CR is 2 below. While a "heroic" PC-levelled enemy (like rogue or fighter) would be a standard challenge for the party (i.e. not too hard, but hard enough to make them spend resources), they'd eat that guy for breakfast - and they want some cereals and scrambled egg, too, since the guy alone isn't filling.
When a barge captain is of a high level that you, that dose not inspire me much. And to me this is a problem, because that is what I am looking for from an rpg. i want to save the world, and feel like I am one of the most powerful people of that world.
Well, in a sense, this game is not right for you. Because the player characters aren't the most powerful creatures (or even people) in the world.
Not at first.
This is not Marvel DC the RPG, where you can start as Superman. You usually start at level 1. And while even then, the characters tend to be exceptional, they're exceptional for their level! They tend to get better ability scores, access to real classes (the vast majority of peole in those worlds are level 1 commoners - and even compared to other NPC classes, commoners are weak), better equipment, and often some extra gimmicks like character traits (which are supposed for PCs only!)
But you still start at level 1, and there are characters in that world with higher levels.
However, heroes tend to have a very fast ascend from Zero to Hero - and way beyond that.
The distribution of levels is not linear, there are not as many 2th-level characters than there are 1st-level characters or 20th-level characters. The higher you go, the less company you'll have.
I don't have hard numbers, but I think that there are twice as many people of any level x than there are for (x+1). And that might still be an optimistic view, it could be far less the higher you go. But that means for every level 20 character, there are 2 19ers, 4 18ers, 8 17ers, etc.
If you prefer ratios, that would mean that 50% of all people are level 1. Only about 1.5% are level 6, and a bit less than 0.0001% get to the highest level. The level 20ers are literally one in a million. (Well, almost, they're one in a million forty-eight thousand five hundred and seventy-five)
Considering how fast level advancement tends to be in this game (especially if you use the fast track), a hero doing a couple of months worth of solid adventuring can become a legend before becoming old enough to drink beer in some nations on our planet.
On that note, can any one tell me how the adventure paths play out? Do they progress upward and give you the feeling of being a super human hero?
The exact upper limit varies from AP to AP, and it depends a bit on how thorough the party is (and on how many members it has), but the lowest upper level as stated in the adventure paths is 13 for Council of Thieves and 17 for Kingmaker, Serpent's Skull and others. And nowadays, the last instalment of the Path has an article about extending the campaign beyond the modules, with ideas for future challenges and threats.
While they don't go all the way up to 20 all by themselves, they go up high enough to be considered epic heroes (not in the sense of "Epic Level Handbook" for characters beyond 20th level, but more in the original sense of the word.). You need the rarest of humanoids to best you, and among the non-humanoid threats, only the oldest of dragons, legendary evils and outsiders that are close to becoming nascent godlings can face you without uncertainty.
I'd call that frikking superhuman. Actually, I need to find something else to call what you are then, because I think that at about the time you leave the lowest third of levels behind, you can rightfully call yourself "superhuman". At medium level, you can laugh at most things normal mortals would be afraid of.
(no clue about that adventure- so am making this up. If it somehow mirrors that adventure- its pure coincidence)
So.. the town is being sieged by goblins. They attack every couple of weeks and demand their tribute. They are lead by a bugbear leader who keeps them- and you- in line.
You, and your party, are there on the ferry crossing the river to go kick the living [censored] out of the goblins and their leader. You are tired of their crap and you are going to give them what for.
Whats the ferryman doing? He's manning a ferry. He can be a great wyrm gold dragon in disguise or a level 1 commoner.. what does it matter? Who is going to save the town?
YOU ARE. That is what makes you a hero. The stats of the NPC's int he game world are irrelevant because what makes you a hero is what you are doing. You are willing to buckle on the gear and tackle problem while others can't/won't/etc.
Being a Hero isn't about having higher numbers than everyone else, its a willingness to go out into a situation you *know* is dangerous and bring that danger home to whatever is threatening you, your home, region, country, or world.
There is Always some dude with a bigger sword and some long beard with a thicker spellbook. What are they doing with them though?
-S
(no clue about that adventure- so am making this up. If it somehow mirrors that adventure- its pure coincidence)
So.. the town is being sieged by goblins. They attack every couple of weeks and demand their tribute. They are lead by a bugbear leader who keeps them- and you- in line.
You, and your party, are there on the ferry crossing the river to go kick the living [censored] out of the goblins and their leader. You are tired of their crap and you are going to give them what for.
Whats the ferryman doing? He's manning a ferry. He can be a great wyrm gold dragon in disguise or a level 1 commoner.. what does it matter? Who is going to save the town?
YOU ARE. That is what makes you a hero. The stats of the NPC's int he game world are irrelevant because what makes you a hero is what you are doing. You are willing to buckle on the gear and tackle problem while others can't/won't/etc.
Being a Hero isn't about having higher numbers than everyone else, its a willingness to go out into a situation you *know* is dangerous and bring that danger home to whatever is threatening you, your home, region, country, or world.
There is Always some dude with a bigger sword and some long beard with a thicker spellbook. What are they doing with them though?
-S
+1
Try the 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign and then tell me how powerful your characters feel :)
Forgotten Realms got a bit out of control, but it is possible to have high level NPCs and still have the players feel heroic. I felt that Greyhawk was a good setting for this reason. There were powerful NPCs and opponents around, but not nearly as many as in Forgotten Realms and they were not nearly as active in the day to day activities of the world.
Forgotten Realms got a bit out of control, but it is possible to have high level NPCs and still have the players feel heroic. I felt that Greyhawk was a good setting for this reason. There were powerful NPCs and opponents around, but not nearly as many as in Forgotten Realms and they were not nearly as active in the day to day activities of the world.
Also I have always felt being heroic has nothing to do with power level...or the threat delt with.
For instance somebody defending a town from a powerful force would be just as heroic as somebody who is defending the world from a powerful force. While one is more important than the other and a grand scheme...both takes courage, conviction and the will to stand up..which are to me traits of a hero...not if I can fly or shoot lasers from my eyes.
A smart man fights the battle he knows he will win...a hero fights the battle he knows he will looase but does so anyway because it is the right thing to do.
Well, this is all really about expectations and perspective.
If by "superhero" you mean "able to do things far beyond what normal human beings can do" then every first level PC is a "superhero" by definition. Even the simple ability to heal by laying hands on someone and mumbling some words is "super heroic". Casting "magic missile" or hexing a target, all of these are powers far, far beyond any mortal ability. And of course it just gets more awesome from there.
If by "superhero" you mean "able to kick anything's butt that comes before me" then you are playing the wrong game. There are games that let you do that. THIS game is designed to provide you with challenges that you SHOULD win, but will have to think and work to do so.
Heroism in and of itself is not about power anyway, and never has been. It's about facing up to danger, fighting against the odds, and saving the innocents. You can do that as a first level commoner.
Try the 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign and then tell me how powerful your characters feel :)
Sometimes I wonder why I still do this, but . . .
Part of the problem is that Faerun was originally a campaign setting multiple times the size of the continental US, will millions and millions of people all over the place, and it was actually a pretty long haul from Shadowdale to Silverymoon to Waterdeep, so those high level characters were actually fairly well separated. Not that they couldn't visit each other fairly quickly if they needed to do so, but overall, they were in very separate regions.
Other contributing factors?
In earlier editions, you didn't get much, even as a spellcaster, once you got 9th level spells. So an 18th level wizard wasn't really that much less powerful than a 24th level one.
Then late in 2nd edition, you started getting expanded spell progressions, 10th level spells, etc.
This carried over into 3rd, where a level meant a bit more, and it also introduced epic level spells and abilities.
But even with all of that factored in, I'm not sure how one Simbul negates all of Thay, for example, or how the Simbul is suppose to, single-handedly defend all of Aglarond without any need for heroics from anyone else in the country.
Also, Elminster was often mentioned not as a superman that could fly all over Faerun saving everyone, but as a walking mutually assured destruction machine that kept Zhentil Keep from marching through the Dales and threatening Cormyr. But for that to work, he has to keep his old, wrinkled butt in Shadowdale quite a bit. Hence why he's often shown manipulating events and not acting directly.
The problem, I think, wasn't that there were high level characters, but rather, the feel of how many people actually lived in Faerun was lost more and more, and it didn't help that the continent shrunk between 2nd edition and 3rd. Add to that the fact that valuable campaign setting space was used up giving stats to people that could have easily been detailed as "Elminster, CG human wizard, very high level," and your focus becomes your reality.
Even the novels shifted from following "mid level" adventurers in interesting adventures to following characters that would have had to have been in the 15th level range taking on massive threats.
So I guess, long story short, what I'm trying to say is that it wasn't so much the existence of high level characters, but rather the focus on them that was the problem.
Try the 3.5 Forgotten Realms campaign and then tell me how powerful your characters feel :)Sometimes I wonder why I still do this, but . . .
I agree with uoe one hundred percent...and could add other factors in why high level NPCs don't make your PCs less...but I have stopped responding to this stuff because at the end of the day I still have my Realms...I really don't care if other people like them..or even understand them.
Just let it go...agree to disagree even before the arguements start. That is what I do when I see this come up....
It's hard not to feel heroic in DnD. But I agree that Golarion and adventures as written try to keep players down, even at the cost of the entire world making almost as little sense as late-3.5 edition FR.
Sometimes I wonder why I still do this, but . . .
Part of the problem is that Faerun was originally a campaign setting multiple times the size of the continental US, will millions and millions of people all over the place, and it was actually a pretty long haul from Shadowdale to Silverymoon to Waterdeep, so those high level characters were actually fairly well separated. Not that they couldn't visit each other fairly quickly if they needed to do so, but overall, they were in very separate regions.
Other contributing factors?
In earlier editions, you didn't get much, even as a spellcaster, once you got 9th level spells. So an 18th level wizard wasn't really that much less powerful than a 24th level one.
Then late in 2nd edition, you started getting expanded spell progressions, 10th level spells, etc.
This carried over into 3rd, where a level meant a bit more, and it also introduced epic level spells and abilities.
But even with all of that factored in, I'm not sure how one Simbul negates all of Thay, for example, or how the Simbul is suppose to, single-handedly defend all of Aglarond without any need for heroics from anyone else in the country.
Try other question: how one Simbul, or any other caster with access to 9th level spells, haven't destroyed/subjugated reality (if evil) or caused a singularity (if not) yet? Because that's what casters with access to 9th-level spells can do in any edition since at least AD&D 2. Defeating a country is a child's play, unless foiled by someone of equal stature. Then realize that you need either to invent a personal excuse for every single entity with such abilities, or enforce a world which destiny is very tightly controlled by deities, or whatever the current top dogs are. Then you will understand the real reason why neither Forgotten Realms nor Golarion make any sense.
Bear in mind that even in "super-heroic" fantasy, mighty heroes have been the prisoner of people that they could have easily torn apart and turned inside out in seconds had they not been chained up or the wrong side of a cage/cell door: Cue Superman behind the bars of a glowing cage snarling "You'll never get away with this!" at a laughing Lex Luther. Most heroes have been prisoners at one time or another, Conan and Kull were both slaves (and much later Kings) and just look at the Elder Scrolls games! Anybody can be imprisoned if somebody else gets the drop on them, it takes a hero to win free!
Heroism in and of itself is not about power anyway, and never has been. It's about facing up to danger, fighting against the odds, and saving the innocents. You can do that as a first level commoner.
Lol. Why then the main recurring difference between idealistic stories about heroism and their cynical subversions in various media is characters actually having the power to face the danger without getting squashed and to save the innocents in the former, and not having it in the latter? Fighting against the odds is noble and whatever, but if odds are really against you... then odds are, you will simply lose. And while half the good action story is successfully pretending that the hero is outmatched and struggles against the odds, this is sort of hard to do in RPG, where thinking players will have a good idea of how their enemies measure up to them, and will see if the GM coddles them.
Interesting. Is Spider-Man less of a hero because he has deference to Captain America? Is either less of a hero because Superman is more powerful than they are in the crossovers?
Heroic is as heroic does, as another hero might say. Power can aid in that, but has little to actually do with real heroism.
There's always going to be somebody more powerful, in some way. Often times, when a party comes into a village, they are the most powerful, even more powerful than the magistrate, the town guard, and others in authority. Sometimes not. Sometimes the captain of the guard is an old veteran soldier, or sometimes a town or city has a powerful wizard or cleric as a protector.
What I want to know is, what is a player doing knowing the stats of an NPC he is associating with? Did the GM divulge this information? He shouldn't. Did the player read ahead in the adventure? He shouldn't do that, either.
Look, get used to this. For whatever reason, you're going to have to respect or show deference to characters of a lower level than yourself from time to time. Either because they are in charge and you respect that, or they have something you want or need, or whatever.
Power will come in time, and the game will for the most part put you at an advantage, and then you'll see whether you are a hero or not, based on what you do with that power.
Interesting. Is Spider-Man less of a hero because he has deference to Captain America? Is either less of a hero because Superman is more powerful than they are in the crossovers?
Spider-Man and Captain America are heroes (as opposed to, you know, corpses) because they have both superpowers and several forms of plot shielding. RPG characters generally have only one of these forms (conveniently not meeting vastly overleveled bad guys they don't have power to challenge). So they are hard to compare with the characters who are, in most situations, entitled to win by the plot, even if their actual powerset is obviously inadequate for the task. In DnD the risk is, by default, supposed to be real. So if there is Superman around you, and you face a Superman-scale threat, you sure as heck will be less of a hero than Superman if you are significantly less powerful than him, because you will either, you know, die ingloriously, or will be observably contributing less to overcoming said threat.
Heroic is as heroic does, as another hero might say. Power can aid in that, but has little to actually do with real heroism.
If by "aiding" you mean "making your heroism anything more than a pointless, quixotic gesture of defiance", sure, yes.
There's always going to be somebody more powerful, in some way.
No, in the universe with a clear personal power ladder this is not only not true, but cannot possibly be true. The only questions are, where the top really lies, and are the characters allowed to reach it, or at least to get close enough for a two-sided interaction with the current placeholder.
What I want to know is, what is a player doing knowing the stats of an NPC he is associating with?
In the OP's case, I don't know. But generally, it's not particularly hard to make a general estimation of an important NPC's power level.
|
(no clue about that adventure- so am making this up. If it somehow mirrors that adventure- its pure coincidence)
So.. the town is being sieged by goblins. They attack every couple of weeks and demand their tribute. They are lead by a bugbear leader who keeps them- and you- in line.
You, and your party, are there on the ferry crossing the river to go kick the living [censored] out of the goblins and their leader. You are tired of their crap and you are going to give them what for.
Whats the ferryman doing? He's manning a ferry. He can be a great wyrm gold dragon in disguise or a level 1 commoner.. what does it matter? Who is going to save the town?
YOU ARE. That is what makes you a hero. The stats of the NPC's int he game world are irrelevant because what makes you a hero is what you are doing. You are willing to buckle on the gear and tackle problem while others can't/won't/etc.
Being a Hero isn't about having higher numbers than everyone else, its a willingness to go out into a situation you *know* is dangerous and bring that danger home to whatever is threatening you, your home, region, country, or world.
There is Always some dude with a bigger sword and some long beard with a thicker spellbook. What are they doing with them though?
-S
+1
Selgard my man, you always have a way of summing things up nicely. Great example!
I was erading through the Pathfinder module Mask of the Living God and I noticed (SPOILER ALERT)that at one point you end up on a barge that is captained by a lvl 4 Dwarf expert. i was thinking , "this doesn't feel like I am a hero."
When a barge captain is of a high level that you, that dose not inspire me much. And to me this is a problem, because that is what I am looking for from an rpg. i want to save the world, and feel like I am one of the most powerful people of that world.
I agree completely with your last sentence. When I'm the GM, I like to make 6th level the effective limit for everyone except truly exceptional heroes and villains. So I wouldn't use 10th level human fighters as "mooks", for instance.
Having said that, a level 4 expert as a barge captain doesn't bother me too much, although that might be slightly unusual.
|
The most heroic characters are those who battle on, not because they are assured of victory, but because it is the right thing to do. Sometimes they are even aware of the fact that their efforts won't really help in the long run.
A good example would be the heroes of Norse mythology. When Ragnarok comes, all the great deeds of Viking heroes will not help. The gods, mankind, and all their allies will die. Most of the evil will be killed in that final battle as well, but in the end they will emerge victorious. Why then, should a great Norse warrior not throw in with the giants?
A RPG example would be Call of Cthulhu characters, doomed from the beginning, and destined at most to slightly delay the time when the stars are right.
I find these character more heroic than a character who can cake-walk his way through the enemy forces and deliver a one-sided smack-down to the BBEG.
Spider-Man and Captain America are heroes (as opposed to, you know, corpses) because they have both superpowers and several forms of plot shielding.
So by that defination....Dr. Doom....Lex Luthor...or anyother villian is actualy heroes because they have
1) Super powers2)plot shielding in serveral forms. Because they don't ever face the death penalty...they always escape...or escape from jail...etc.
All fictional character have plot shielding to one degree or another.
To me it does not matter if a hero dies or even fails...it is the act that they stood up that made them heroes. Now rather heroes exist solely in fiction or if they exist in RL...is debateable...
On that note, can any one tell me how the adventure paths play out? Do they progress upward and give you the feeling of being a super human hero?I am still in the process of putting together my first group and I have not been able to play in an actual game yet, so my knowledge is limited.
thank you in advance.
My players are now 10-12 level and are returning once again to Sandpoint. Previously, they returned and help stave off a stone giant war party. And they have already earned much reknown for defeating a great beast of Lamashtu that would destroy another town. The townspeople of Sandpoint are still levels 1-5, and are now under a threat that is a challenge for the player character's levels.
My players still show respect for the Sheriff and for the Mayor of Sandpoint, even though they are no where near the powerlevel of the characters. But the PC's are heroworshipped by most the town, and enjoy many free rounds at local taverns.
Running Rise of the Rune Lords and having read Curse of the Crimson Throne, I have to say YES there is much opportunity in Golarion for the player characters to feel heroic.
Most NPC's encountered will never be anywhere near the powerlevel of the PC's. The challenges the players face will be left to them because there is NO ONE ELSE that can handle these challenges.
As for knowing the level of an NPC, still not sure how one does that. Boatman ferries across river really well? Carries himself as a fourth level expert? um yah.
Greg
I was erading through the Pathfinder module Mask of the Living God and I noticed (SPOILER ALERT)that at one point you end up on a barge that is captained by a lvl 4 Dwarf expert. i was thinking , "this doesn't feel like I am a hero."
When a barge captain is of a high level that you, that dose not inspire me much. And to me this is a problem, because that is what I am looking for from an rpg. i want to save the world, and feel like I am one of the most powerful people of that world.
On that note, can any one tell me how the adventure paths play out? Do they progress upward and give you the feeling of being a super human hero?
I am still in the process of putting together my first group and I have not been able to play in an actual game yet, so my knowledge is limited.
thank you in advance.
Well, for heroic feeling from the mechanic point of view from the start I'd recommend a bit different style of storytelling (how come that you know NPC level anyway?) or perhaps things like 4E and Exalted, where the characters are from the start mechanically advantaged over majority of the mundane NPCs. In Pathfinder to feel heroic you'd better started on higher level, as this game's level breadth can simulate everything from villagers to demi-gods. First three levels are very close to the villager and thus it's no wonder that you don't feel like the demigod and it's about level 5 where you can reasonably start to consider yourself an experienced adventurer. World saving plots (unless you want to participate in a role of a happless hobbit baggage) are generally saved for level 10+.
My character is in a homebrew, not in Golarion, but I think it is the same in most settings, that Pathfinder PCs are heroes, not superheroes.
In the last couple sessions, the GM has had an NPC ranger help out the party, and he won't answer my PC's burning question: Is she better than me?. But a little bit of professional jealousy is not necessarily a bad thing.
In most D&D settings, and I suppose most Pathfinder settings, it is easy to find people who can wield swords, track quarry, and even cast spells. In my own homebrew, I played up a "frontier quality" where the outlands were rough and those who survived knew how to fight. None of this "We're miners; we don't know how to deal with hobgoblins!" More like "So we here you've killed the hobgoblin chief Khurzag. Wanna take a crack at this guy who's taken over one of our mines?"
And afterwards, they can enjoy an apple pie baked by a level seven granny.
...
Sometimes I wonder why I still do this, but . . .
+1 People keep forgetting that high level NPCs are like celebrities. You hear a lot about them, but that doesn't mean that the other people don't exist. You just don't hear about them all day long. Just like you probably won't meet them anymore often than you'd meet local TV news people (unless you are their neighbours) and for people like Elminster or Simbul? How often does your king / president walk by?
|
|
My character is in a homebrew, not in Golarion, but I think it is the same in most settings, that Pathfinder PCs are heroes, not superheroes.
In the last couple sessions, the GM has had an NPC ranger help out the party, and he won't answer my PC's burning question: Is she better than me?. But a little bit of professional jealousy is not necessarily a bad thing.
In most D&D settings, and I suppose most Pathfinder settings, it is easy to find people who can wield swords, track quarry, and even cast spells. In my own homebrew, I played up a "frontier quality" where the outlands were rough and those who survived knew how to fight. None of this "We're miners; we don't know how to deal with hobgoblins!" More like "So we here you've killed the hobgoblin chief Khurzag. Wanna take a crack at this guy who's taken over one of our mines?"
And afterwards, they can enjoy an apple pie baked by a level seven granny.
Level Seven Granny! That cracked me up. LOL!
The PC's in my game feel more like supervillains. Ok, not really, they are super-mercenaries. They work for good more often than not.
Also, I'm fairly certain a 1st level fighter can beat up the 4th level expert.
The most heroic characters are those who battle on, not because they are assured of victory, but because it is the right thing to do. Sometimes they are even aware of the fact that their efforts won't really help in the long run.
Way to miss the point. In RPGs, unlike other forms of media, fighting because it is the right thing to do, can actually get a character killed. Not because the author has depression, or because it's dramatically appropriate, because the character wasn't powerful enough.
So, while I'm all for playing heroes fighting for the just cause, let's not deceive themselves saying that fighting against the odds can actually work in DnD (and yes, persistent fudging just means that the GM shifts odds in PCs favor until they are close to 100%, but in a dishonest way). For campaigns to work at all (without constantly rotating cast, at least), PCs must have an overwhelmingly high probability of victory in every individual encounter.
Note, that this is completely and utterly unrelated to their current position on the world's power ladder.
A good example would be the heroes of Norse mythology. When Ragnarok comes, all the great deeds of Viking heroes will not help. The gods, mankind, and all their allies will die. Most of the evil will be killed in that final battle as well, but in the end they will emerge victorious. Why then, should a great Norse warrior not throw in with the giants?
Because they will, in fact, lose. But mostly because they do not recruit, and gods, despite also being total dicks, do.
A RPG example would be Call of Cthulhu characters, doomed from the beginning, and destined at most to slightly delay the time when the stars are right.
That's why I don't really understand the appeal of CoC RPG. I mean it's full of standard fantasy quests like "Stop the evil god, save the world", except that you are either powerless to succeed, or the entire conflict is fake (in the version of Masks of Nyarlathotep I've seen the outcome for the world is "exactly as in our history" whether PCs succeed or fail). Particularly as in its source material you can totally send Ctulhu back to torpor with a steamboat, prevent Yog-Sothoth from taking over with a bit of amateur sorcery, depthcharge the heck out of Deep Ones, and so on. And looking at the history of Lovecraft's Earth, the humanity normally has a pretty good chance of dying out peacefully, rather than violently obliterated by some uber-alien, who failed to do anything to a long string of precursor races. So actions of heroes who go and stop various sorcerers and cultists from bringing about the end of the world are not really different from the standard fantasy "save the world" quest. Except often simpler to pull off.
And anyway, it's not like in CoC "heroic" and "selfishly rational" answers to the question of whether to fight Mythos stuff or not aren't usually the same.
As for knowing the level of...
I don't know about you guys, but I hire a sorcerer to follow me around and cast color spray on everyone we meet, friend or foe, until they're at least stunned. It seems irresponsible not to know their power level before determining whether they are secretly the BBEG waiting to kill me at the end of the module. If they don't wait for me to do that, they're obviously villains and gain KOS status.
I was erading through the Pathfinder module Mask of the Living God and I noticed (SPOILER ALERT)that at one point you end up on a barge that is captained by a lvl 4 Dwarf expert. i was thinking , "this doesn't feel like I am a hero."
When a barge captain is of a high level that you, that dose not inspire me much. And to me this is a problem, because that is what I am looking for from an rpg. i want to save the world, and feel like I am one of the most powerful people of that world.
On that note, can any one tell me how the adventure paths play out? Do they progress upward and give you the feeling of being a super human hero?
I am still in the process of putting together my first group and I have not been able to play in an actual game yet, so my knowledge is limited.
thank you in advance.
As others have said your character would know nothing about the level of each npc, furthermore levels and power does not make a hero. Your actions are what decides how heroic you are, not even the result of them.
Even a lowly 1st level commoner could be considered a hero if he said sacrificed himself to save his family or rushed into a burning building to save a child. Heroics is about selfless acts even if it means great risk.
Unlike the lowly commoner however, player characters in Pathfinder has great power to actually change things. This does not mean that player characters are meant to be the most powerful creatures in existence, just give the player a feeling of being special. As you progress through the game your powers will increase, but so will the risks. This alone does not make you a hero however, your choices are what makes your character a hero.
Having the power to change the world is a big appeal for playing this game, but just having that power does not mean you are a hero .It might just as well make you one of the greatest villains the world has ever seen. It all comes down to the old clichè: "With great power comes great responsibility."
Don't get me wrong FR is my favorite campaign setting, it's just HUGE, and there are several very powerful NPC's in the world.