I'm on a horse. That's why I've got such a cavalier attitude.


Advice

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Teamkill_McBackstab wrote:

I myself just recently retired a Cavalier after he proved too disastrous to the Serpent Skull AP. Being mostly out in the open, being a Cavalier 5 / Bard 1 / Battle Herald 4 and having both the Taldan Knight and Leadership feat allowed him and his cohorts to just eat through encounters nearly unaided by the rest of the party, due to the large amount of damage handed out by the 8th level Fighter cohort, the large amount of AC the Herald has, and all the bonuses the Battle Herald himself hands out. My crowning glory (and the events that led to my decision to stop playing him so the rest of the group could stop feeling left out) was a Huge Sized Spider killed in 1 hit (thanks in part to the Critical Hit Deck) and Two Tyrannosaurs dropped in 3 rounds (which was due in part to another Player's Witch, who put one of the beasts to sleep).

Overall I've had fun with the Cavalier, while my party less so.

This seems less that the cavalier (or the battle herald for that matter) is overpowered, and more that leadership is and your character was built to use leadership to it's fullest.

Leadership is...frustrating, it seems cool from a flavor perspective, and that's why people in my group have taken it (at least I like to think that's why) but it really is too powerful for a feat. If you had a prestige class built around it- that is for ten levels you get class feature that build up an army, instead of other class features, than maybe, maybe it could work.


MinstrelintheGallery wrote:


Leadership is...frustrating, it seems cool from a flavor perspective, and that's why people in my group have taken it (at least I like to think that's why) but it really is too powerful for a feat. If you had a prestige class built around it- that is for ten levels you get class feature that build up an army, instead of other class features, than maybe, maybe it could work.

I'll admit a lot of it did come from Leadership, and yet, the main character did benefit a ton from Cavalier.

The bonuses he handed out on charges from banner, the 38 AC I managed to maintain using a combination of Mithril Breastplate, Lion's Shield, Combat Expertise, Dodge,the Order of the Lion's Challenge ability (+5 AC against one target, -2 to all others), and some minor magical items; the mount, and the ability to hand out Teamwork feats.

Overall the Cavalier is a great combatant if you're not looking to outshine everyone, and be a great team player. He really shines in cohesion with everyone else.


By the way... does anyone have an opinion on the cavalier orders?

Which ones sucked, at what were the good ones good for?

Opinions?

Scarab Sages

Doug OBrien wrote:
I actually dislike the small demihuman on a wacky mount direction, so the idea of workable alternatives sounds good.

I hardly think wolves are 'wacky mounts.' If I said goblin on a wolf you know I was roling with some Lord of the Rings foo. I admit to being of the school of thought that pony's are probably more in line with halfling habits, but I don't think limiting players is good. Also its sad that most dungeons don't have enough room for their own large inhabitants to move about.

That was one thing I liked about Varnhold Vanishing - that Tomb was clearly built by giants.

MinsterlintheGallery wrote:


By the way... does anyone have an opinion on the cavalier orders?

Which ones sucked, at what were the good ones good for?

Most of them seem solid enough, though I dislike how Order of the Shield mandates mounted combat. It makes killing your mount and even more valid tactic. The other orders are just fine (especially if they don't build in lots of mounted feets but instead take more generally useful feets like power attack) without their horsey buddy.

My personal favorite would be the Ronin from the Ultimate Combat playtest if his challenge wasn't bad. I actually like the samurai class more because it replaces the teamwork feets that I'm not a huge fan of with greater tanking powers.


You got your orders mixed up.
Sword order goes hard for mounted.

Order of the shield is (admittedly the only one I've actually played) is probably the best DPR twf'er since it's the only order that grants:
A to-hit bonus (+5 by 20)
Free DR (sorta, converts it to non-leathal)
A free lockdown mechanic (more full attacks since you can stop foes from moving)

I played this (usually delayed to see an enemy hit a buddy) and went scimitar n board blender on their a$$.

It rocked.


Specializing in mounted combat doesn't have to limit where your character can fight-- in fact, it's quite the opposite. At seventh level, a cavalier can trade in the horse for a large-sized dire bat or pteranodon or roc, and can charge down enemies in the air just as easily as on the ground.

I also kind of like the image of a cavalier riding on a megatherium (giant sloth) for a dungeon-crawl campaign. Again, at seventh level you can get one that is large-sized, and in addition to a ground speed of 40', they have a climb speed of 10'-- meaning that ladders and cliff faces aren't as much of an obstacle. In fact, since most cavaliers are going to be wearing heavy armor and taking armor penalties, they'll probably have a better chance of successfully making it up the cliff on the sloth's back instead of trying to make it up on their own.

I do think that the rules concerning replacing a mount need to be rewritten a bit, though. Right now, the only way to replace a mount is for it to die and for the cavalier to go through the mourning process. There should be an option for a trade-in, maybe with a week off to train the new mount. ("Well, old paint, you've served me well through many a campaign and you've earned yourself a rest... "). Don't make the cavalier have to shoot his horse just to get a new mount!


What exactly constitutes a banner anyway? Do you have to hold a pole with a flag on it in one hand? Can it be an emblem on a tabard? On a shield? A distinctive helmet plume?


sunbeam wrote:
What exactly constitutes a banner anyway? Do you have to hold a pole with a flag on it in one hand? Can it be an emblem on a tabard? On a shield? A distinctive helmet plume?

According to the text: "The banner must be at least Small or larger and must be carried or displayed by the cavalier or his mount to function."

So as long as it's small sized (probably two feet by three feet) and either carried or displayed by the cavalier or his mount, it should work.

So unless your plum sticks up three feet and sticks out two feet, I'd guess that it doesn't count. I'm sure a banner could be strapped to your back (that's how the Japanese often did it) or hung on your lance, so you don't have to use a hand for it.


I think a banner pole on the back is probably the best solution for solo cavaliers. You really can't afford to sacrifice a hand to holding a banner. I mean you could give it club/staff rules but it most cavaliers aren't really set up for TWF.


I dislike the cavalier, simply because I hate the mounted rules. I have yet to have them clarified in a way that actually works for me. The basic rules, for riding an unintelligent creature with no special abilities and no extra hit dice or feats, I can handle. But once you start talking about riding a creature with extra feats (mostly the improved combat maneuver ones, unless you put a point into int, and then it gets much worse), special abilities like pounce, and the feats which improve the rider's mount's abilities, it becomes one whole confusing mess I haven't ever manged to sort out...

Anyone have a good resource for figuring it all out?


.
..
...
....
.....

Perhaps multiple banners?

Attached to:

  • Mid-section of Lance

  • Pole Arm (Halberd?)

  • Poles mounted on shoulders of armour!

  • Spring loaded tube that fires wrapped-banner into air when triggered which proceeds to unfurl and a deploy parachute allowing it to slowly drift down and be seen by all? Kinda like a flare/streamer...

    *shakes fist*


  • Veneth Kestrel wrote:
    Hello gamers. Look at your character, now back to me, now back to your character, now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he stopped using his boring old core class and switched to APG Cavalier he could be more like me. Look down, now back up, where are you? You're charging across the field of battle as the character your character could be like. What's in your hand? Back at me. It's a +5 magical lance with an orc skewered upon it. Look again. The orc is now DIAMONDS. Anything is possible when you're a Cavalier and not a core class. I'm on a horse.

    Total win.


    BenignFacist wrote:

    .

  • Spring loaded tube that fires wrapped-banner into air when triggered which proceeds to unfurl and a deploy parachute allowing it to slowly drift down and be seen by all? Kinda like a flare/streamer...

    *shakes fist*

  • I love that. I guess most people would think gnome with that idea, but for some reason I don't like gnomes with this class. I think halflings would be cool, just not gnomes for some reason.

    Then again a gnome on a dire skunk would be something else.


    Biichama wrote:
    He's Old Spice Man. He'd have 18s in everything and his dice would always roll 20s.

    Woah, woah, woah... he's Old Spice Man, not Chuck Norris.


    I'm on a horse! I'm on a horse!
    Everybody look at me 'cause I'm ridin' on a horse!
    I'm on a horse! I'm on a horse!
    Take a good, hard look at the muthafonkin' horse!

    That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the title. Took me all week to say so. Was it worth the wait?


    Bruunwald wrote:

    I'm on a horse! I'm on a horse!

    Everybody look at me 'cause I'm ridin' on a horse!
    I'm on a horse! I'm on a horse!
    Take a good, hard look at the muthafonkin' horse!

    That's the first thing I thought of when I saw the title. Took me all week to say so. Was it worth the wait?

    You're not the only one.


    sunbeam wrote:
    BenignFacist wrote:

    .

  • Spring loaded tube that fires wrapped-banner into air when triggered which proceeds to unfurl and a deploy parachute allowing it to slowly drift down and be seen by all? Kinda like a flare/streamer...

    *shakes fist*

  • I love that. I guess most people would think gnome with that idea, but for some reason I don't like gnomes with this class. I think halflings would be cool, just not gnomes for some reason.

    Then again a gnome on a dire skunk would be something else.

    Close, They'd ride a badger. A badger named Roderick James Tybalt III.

    Liberty's Edge

    Of the 6 Orders in the Advanced Player's Guide, do any have aspects that seem like they work particularly well? How about elements or abilities that seem like they could be better?


    Marc Radle wrote:
    Of the 6 Orders in the Advanced Player's Guide, do any have aspects that seem like they work particularly well? How about elements or abilities that seem like they could be better?

    Well, for lack of anyone else's opinion, here's mine:

    Order of the Cockatrice: This one seems less based on a mechanical niche and more on a roleplaying one. That is, it is for being a selfish...person. He does extra damage in a duel, is hard to intimidate, can scare enemies (without having to take weapon focus, a plus) can steal kills, and gets a powerful once per day self buff. All in all, it's not bad- great for that character. If you want to not focus on your teammates, there you go. As for the edict, it tells you to act like a player character. Easy.

    Order of the Dragon: This is based on boosting allies. In fact it seems designed to gang up on big strong opponents. This order has the least benefits for the cavalier himself, but a lot of nice boosts for his friends. Act as one is a great ability in particular. This one works well in a party with other melee classes.It's kind of the opposite of the order of the cockatrice. The edict isn't too rough, it just wants you to be helpful towards the other player character, which is the whole point of this order.

    Order of the Lion: This is another team buffing order- though it has more self boosting abilities than the order of the dragon. I should note that most of it's abilities give competence bonuses, which stack with a banner, but not with bardic music. So I wouldn't suggest coupling this one with a bard, as there will be overlap. That said, I find the edicts to be kind of tricky- loyalty to a specific nation won't work in every campaign.

    Order of the Shield: Want to tank? No? Than stay away. This is one of the better meat shields in pathfinder. Between the improved stand still ability and the resolute (I find it more handy than DR- it stacks with any kind of DR) he's pretty good at keeping people safe. The special challenge ability is good, but I think it might be tricky to make sure to takes effect. I'm not sure, haven't played it. While the edict doesn't require you to be good aligned, it's hard to see a non-good character obeying the edicts.

    Order of the Star- the religious knight. I'm not a huge fan of order, in that so of it's abilities require multiclassing to work (also, I see no reason to multiclass paladin and cavalier, don't see the benefit, really), but I can see it's uses. If you want to play a paladin of a different alignment, this is your best bet. I think a cavalier of Cayden Cailean could be fun. Mechanically, it seems to be more of a self buffer, it's challenge ability is really good in my opinion. The edict is about what you'd expect: all the restrictions of a divine caster without any of the spells.

    Order of the Sword: This is both the best and worst of the orders. On a horse he's a god of war, without his horse he's a step between fighter and warrior. This order seems to get all the nicest things, provided your on horseback. If you play this order, your character will probably crying if he has to dismount. That said the edicts are basically stereotypical chivalry, which is cool.


    MaxBarton wrote:
    Cartigan wrote:


    Indeed they do, but it should be a rule of thumb that classes shouldn't be created (in main source books) where their primary class ability is significantly limited to certain types of campaigns.

    +1

    Unfortunately as more niche style classes are developed this will be a problem. As developers try to make sure to fill the niche role they tend to lose the ability to work in all campaign types.

    The mounted combat issue has been a major determent for me even learning much about the class. Maybe I'll try a small sized cavalier one of these days though.

    -1

    Um... you mean like a rogue when there are no traps around... or a paladin against Neutral enemies?

    We have a Cavalier in our party at level 11 which can do 105 damage on a charge.... without a crit. Where is that underpowered?

    It's just a fact that certain classes are better in certain situations... Cavaliers have been made just fine... if not too fine (points above).


    Matthias_DM wrote:
    MaxBarton wrote:


    +1

    Unfortunately as more niche style classes are developed this will be a problem. As developers try to make sure to fill the niche role they tend to lose the ability to work in all campaign types.

    The mounted combat issue has been a major determent for me even learning much about the class. Maybe I'll try a small sized cavalier one of these days though.

    -1

    Um... you mean like a rogue when there are no traps around... or a paladin against Neutral enemies?

    We have a Cavalier in our party at level 11 which can do 105 damage on a charge.... without a crit. Where is that underpowered?

    It's just a fact that certain classes are better in certain situations... Cavaliers have been made just fine... if not too fine (points above).

    The rogue class isn't based around trapfinding, it's merely a feature of the class. As for the paladin, they would loose some power by loosing their smiting ability, however they still have spellcasting, lay on hands, and good melee ability.

    The cavalier looses the focus of it's class in a non mount friendly campaign. Admittedly I'm not an expert on cavaliers as I said above. It does seem though that a cavalier off his mount is a crappy fighter. Unfortunately mounts have a lot of limitations in areas they can travel.

    Granted if you pick to play a cavalier without consulting your DM about it, you're probably bound for trouble.

    EDIT: Admittedly there are ways to gimp any class, the cavalier just lends itself to loosing a lot of its power easily.

    The Exchange

    Quote:
    The cavalier looses the focus of it's class in a non mount friendly campaign...

    I think that's more an issue with perception of the class than with the class itself. I'll admit, I kinda' thought that way too when first browsing the APG, but it just isn't do.

    The Cavalier class abilities based around mounts are: Mount (duh!), Cavalier's Charge / Mighty Charge / Supreme Charge, and Expert Trainer. That's 5 total, over 20 levels.

    Non-mount related class abilities: Challenge / Demanding Challenge, Order, Tactician / Greater Tactician / Master Tactician, most Order abilities (you get 3 total as you level), Banner / Greater Banner, & Bonus Feats (you get 3 total as you level). That's 14 total, over 20 levels.

    So yeah, playing a Cavalier in a game without much room for a mount is a little like playing a Rogue in a game without many traps - there's one set of your class abilities which don't get to come out and play as often, perhaps, as you'd like them to, but it's not like you're a one-trick pony. Certainly easier than playing, say, a Bard in a game where the DM doesn't do any social interaction with NPCs...

    Plus, how many games have people played in the past where there actually was plenty of room for mounted combat, but since no-one had designed their character with mounted combat abilities, no-one noticed? Unless your campaign set-up is such that you only ever actively play 'in the dungeon', and everything outside of that is 'downtime', then there's going to be a chance for the mounted combat abilities of the Cavalier to 'come out and play' in most adventures... IMHO, natch! ;)


    A lot of people seem to mention non standard mounts. Are they RAW, certainly I don't think It's RAI.

    Otherwise all medium cavaliers would take the horse till 7, then trade it on for a large wolf or tiger.


    Ardenup wrote:

    A lot of people seem to mention non standard mounts. Are they RAW, certainly I don't think It's RAI.

    Otherwise all medium cavaliers would take the horse till 7, then trade it on for a large wolf or tiger.

    Technically anyone can have any mount if you want to train it (same as druid animal companion) some class have an easier time of this then others (and its hard and takes forever)

    Liberty's Edge

    Ardenup wrote:

    A lot of people seem to mention non standard mounts. Are they RAW, certainly I don't think It's RAI.

    Otherwise all medium cavaliers would take the horse till 7, then trade it on for a large wolf or tiger.

    "A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level.The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts."


    ciretose wrote:
    Ardenup wrote:

    A lot of people seem to mention non standard mounts. Are they RAW, certainly I don't think It's RAI.

    Otherwise all medium cavaliers would take the horse till 7, then trade it on for a large wolf or tiger.

    "A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level.The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts."

    .

    I was aware of the text. Generally though builds are not posted based upon DM fiat. The last sentence is like saying, 'The GM might allow higher WBL cause he can'

    As a DM i might allow another kind of mount- but I wouldn't just give it to a player.


    ProfPotts wrote:
    Good Analysis

    +1

    Thank you, seeing a comparison like this makes me much more interested in perhaps pursuing it in the future.

    Liberty's Edge

    Ardenup wrote:
    ciretose wrote:
    Ardenup wrote:

    A lot of people seem to mention non standard mounts. Are they RAW, certainly I don't think It's RAI.

    Otherwise all medium cavaliers would take the horse till 7, then trade it on for a large wolf or tiger.

    "A Medium cavalier can select a camel or a horse. A Small cavalier can select a pony or wolf, but can also select a boar or a dog if he is at least 4th level.The GM might approve other animals as suitable mounts."

    .

    I was aware of the text. Generally though builds are not posted based upon DM fiat. The last sentence is like saying, 'The GM might allow higher WBL cause he can'

    As a DM i might allow another kind of mount- but I wouldn't just give it to a player.

    You mentioned the RAW. The RAW says you can have these things unless the DM rules otherwise. We don't need to worry about RAI if RAW says what the rule is.

    If people are building with non-standard mounts, that is the DM's fault, not the rule.


    No one else has an opinion on the cavalier orders?

    The Exchange

    Quote:
    No one else has an opinion on the cavalier orders?

    Okay...

    The Order challenge abilities are something not to be overlooked (as they can easily be if just browsing the book) - essentially, by choosing your Order you're tailoring your character's style, and the power of his Challenge is the first indication of this. Are you more concerned about his AC (helped by the Order of the Lion challenge power), his saves (helped by the Order of the Star challenge power), or his (or his allies', in the case of the Order of the Dragon) chance to hit (helped by the other Orders, in differing circumstances)? If it's his chance to hit, then what tactics do you think you and your party are likely to employ? Will you be a lone melee fighter with ranged support (helped by the Order of the Cockatrice), or one of several melee attackers (helped by the Order of the Dragon or Order of the Shield), or will you be mounted most of the time (helped by the Order of the Sword)?

    The Order Abilities are very powerful stuff, and can be great if used right. Again, you need to match your Order choice with your style of play.

    Generally...

    Order of the Sword is the most mount-focused of the Orders, with both his Challenge power and one of his three Order Abilities being mount-based. His By My Honour Order Ability also ties him into one alignment, so this guy is your 'classic' quasi-Arthurian 'knight in shining armour' type. In essence, he seems to be what most people assume Cavaliers are - pure awesome on a horse, but potentially missing out in a dungeon with low ceilings...

    Order of the Star is clearly most effective when multi-classed with either Paladin or Cleric (but mostly Cleric), due to his Calling Order Ability. A one-level dip into Cleric added to this guy and you have a 'near-Paladin' character without the alignment restrictions, which nicely fits a niche or two people have been house-ruling for years.

    Order of the Shield's Resolute Order Ability converts a little leathal damage into nonlethal damage each time he takes damage... which is both a lifesaver, and saves on healing resources for the party (it all adds up over the course of an adventuring day). His later Order Abilities allow him great battlefield lockdown potential, with an 'better' version of the Stand Still Feat at level 8, and an amazing immediate action move + attack power at level 15. I'd say this guy would be ideal for groups low on melee where he wants the bad guys to attack him (which is supported by his Challenge power too), and lets the rest of the party do their thing at range (like casting healing and buffs on their friendly neighborhood Cavalier!).

    Order of the Lion gets an AC boost as Challenge power, making it the most 'tank worthy' Order in some ways, but the focus of his Order Abilities is buffing his party - in essence a touch of Bard style buffing. His level 2 & 8 Order Abilities both rely on his Charisma as well, so he's even more Bard-ish if you look at it that way, and are competence bonuses, so he's one for a party without a Bard.

    Order of the Dragon is all about the team - he's the 'tactical leader' of a party, boosting their chances to hit (with his Challenge power), having an 'improved Aid Another' with his 2nd level Order Ability (which has great potential outside of combat as well as in it... who doesn't want and extra +3 bonus on their Skill checks?), and eventually granting his allies more bonuses and (most importantly) immediate action movement potential. If your party is the Avengers, then he's Captain America... ;)

    Order of the Cockatrice is, in some ways, the 'selfish' Cavalier. His Challenge power works best when only he's threatening the target, and his level 8 Order Ability allows him to get an AoO when a target he's threatening is struck with a critical hit by another - so his best party role is as a solo melee fighter with ranged support (partnering with a bow fighter type would be ideal, especially if you give the Cavalier Combat Reflexes). His level 2 Order Ability is a 'better' Dazzling Display, whilst his level 15 Order Ability lets him be made of pure awesome... for one round a day. Both these Order Abilities are best with a high Charisma, so if you're looking at an impressive Cavalier, then it's probably this guy or his Order of the Lion friend.

    Very generally I'd suggest: Order of the Sword if you're looking to be a mounted fighter all the time, Order of the Star if you want a non-Paladin paladin, Order of the Shield or Order of the Cockatrice if you're the party's main or lone melee representative, and Order of the Lion or Order of the Dragon if you're wanting team-buffing ability.

    My personal favourite is probably Order of the Dragon, since I tend to like characters which can offer something to their teammates, and the ability to grant others immediate action movement is just a dream, tactically speaking. Of course, Order choice would depend a lot on the campaign and the party involved.

    Grand Lodge

    I love the idea of small Cavaliers. If anyone's played Final Fantasy Tactics, you may have some love for Moogle Chocobo Knights. I agree that fullplate wearing Halflings on St Bernards and spear-chucking Gnomes on forest boars are classy as.

    What's the comparison between Vital Strike and Improved Overrun (and the options it grants) Is one far better than the other in play?


    My brother is running a Cavalier in our Kingmaker game right now. So far it's been working out fairly well. He picked the Dragon Order, and has a decent enough Charisma that he might go into the Battle Herald prestige class.

    Regarding nice things about the class:

    - Charging can be amazing, especially when combined with ride-by attack. If you have room, he can deal some nice damage without letting creature pull full attacks on him.
    He recently pulled a crit out of his butt, while charging, with spirited charge, and a lance. x5 damage is nothing to sneeze at! Makes up for missing most of the time prior to that.

    - He gave his horse companion an Int increase at 4th HD, so he can now speak Common to his horse and it understands him (yay, tricks become mostly unnecessary).

    - With Int 3, his horse can now pick Teamwork feats, which means he charges into combat with his lance, lets that go and pulls out the bastard sword and dismounts and they proceed to flank his target (outflank, precise strike, etc).

    - The Order of the Dragon aid others bonus, combined with the Swift Aid feat, couple with his Challenge, means allies that are having a hard time landing hits on the BBEG can get a nice boost for basically no action economy effort from the Cavalier. Like for his horse who's flanking, heh.

    - Expert Trainer can be nice for a game with downtime and out-of-combat stuff like Kingmaker. Order of the Dragon's survival-to-find-food has been used repeatedly during our exploration periods of Kingmaker.

    These are just a couple things we've run into so far. The Battle Herald and the Leadership feat might give a nice twist to things as well.


    How does everyone feel about the battle herald anyway? I can't figure out what a good build for it would look like, and what it could do. Should the focus be on the cavalier or the bard? What abilities are rendered useless?


    Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Cartigan wrote:
    John Kretzer wrote:


    And magic using class...a campaign that takes place in the mana waste(Golarion setting...not home brew)...no magic means no magic.

    "Campaign actively trying to screw one or more of the classes out of existence"

    Quote:
    Ranger: Simple either a campaign that aviods his favored enemy...and make his choosen combat style ineffective.

    A campaign that manages to avoid all, what - 5?, of your favored enemies is a campaign where the DM is actively trying to screw the Ranger.

    Quote:
    Fighter: a social campaign...

    False.

    Quote:
    Paladin or any cleric: There is no gods...or find the missing gods etc...

    "Campaign actively trying to screw one or more of the classes out of existence"

    Sorry it took so long to get back to this...and your responses are alomst exactly like I thought they would be. And somebody already answeared them quite well already.

    I'll just add 2 things...wanting to run a non magic game is not sacrewing anybody over if you tell the players first this a non-magic campaign.

    1)With the Ranger I have seen it happen by accident...usualy not all 5...as most people figure it out by the time they get their second or third...

    2) All the campaign are up ther are just as possible as any other type of campaign....they can be fun to play. As long as the DM tell everyone what is happening there is no screwing with anybody.

    The cavalier just needs the same consideration...less than you seem to think as they work very well unmounted...but still some.

    Also I don't know what you mean by 'ordinary' campaign? In most game I run or play in there are plenty of opportunities for fights outside and using the mounted stuff.

    It might not be well suited for your types of games you generally run...but hears is some news for you...people play very differently than you. And trust me the game is better if it does not revolve around your game( or anybody's games for that matter). If you don't like it...don't use it.

    Liberty's Edge

    Hi all.

    Since there are a number of cavalier fans in this thread (myself included), I thought this might be of interest :)

    Advanced Options: Cavaliers' Orders from Super Genius Games

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