Ninja vs. Rogue issues boiled down


Ninja Discussion: Round 1

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Just some thoughts...

So the consensus I'm seeing is that rogues are underpowered in combat compared to their ninja cousins (that is, the FIRST ROUND playtest ninja cousins). Which may or may not be a valid argument, as those issues seem to stem more from the ninja's ability to manipulate visibility - thereby allowing him to skirt about the battlefield and then pump out a flurry of shurikens with tons of SA dice than anything else, and really, the rogue should probably be able to manipulate visibility as well (and they can for a steeper price).

I see the issue as a ki point problem and an availability problem (for the rogue), not an ability balancing problem.

Maybe turning all of these ninja tricks into 1/day rogue talents and then adding the following or something akin to it to the ninja's ki pool description could help alleviate that:

The ninja can expend ki points to activate a once per day rogue talent that she has already expended. Only certain talents can be used in this way and each of those has a point cost associated with it as seen on table x.

Then the real trick would be assigning enough points to the really good abilities.

Honestly, a lot of these are very iconic abilities and I would hate to see them removed.

Though I do think that the capstone ability is too good and I also think light steps should be a trick instead of a class ability...

And this is a combat handbook for all classes, right?

I'm assuming combat savvy rogue talents will be included as well?

I'm sure the paizo team would not neglect them.


Some big issues are that those abilities are generally stronger than what Rogue gets & the Ninja has more fixed class abilities than Rogue.

Some question the need for an entire new class.

I think the Ninja's too similar to Rogue & that's part of why the ability power gap is a really big issue.

EDIT: I'm also of the opinion that Samurai, Gunslinger, & Ninja could be done through class variants, rather than needlessly adding in overly specific base classes


Uhh.. did you read the playtest? they /are/ class variants.

I agree alot of the abilities are iconic. But they seem to easily do for Free things the roge has difficulty with and has to invest in.

like major majic vs the ninja trick vanish.


True, the new abilities are strong. But I don't think they're too strong for the rogue to have and still be balanced. Especially if they're just 1/day.

I agree somewhat with making them alternate classes - if only for the sake of not having buy a bunch of books to get to what they actually want to use (primarily for players rather than DM's)

I also think that making a bunch of tightly-focused alternate classes is probably the best way Paizo can move forward with their product line and away from the stigma of previous generations upon generations of prestige-class-buffetted-books that find no use.

But... I do feel like the rogue should essentially already be Paizo's ninja (sans-ki).

And I also think the ninja could probably stand to give up a few SA dice and it would still be just as effective and possibly more balanced.

At this point in the playtest, ki-powered tricks are much more of a boon than evasion/improved evasion, not to mention that they're a heck of a lot more proactive and therefor fun to use as well.

I can already see my ninja playtester asking to re-stat so as to buff up his charisma and drastically lower his dex so as to be technically more combat effective... and there's something that's just plain wrong with that for a ninja.

Wow... that turned into a bit of a rant.


The problym is people base viable on combat, its 70% of the game. Alot of what rogues do well is out of combat, and short of a few very feat heavy builds and circumstances they are oftne poor at combat.

Alot of this has to do with the rogues historical class abilities becoming Skills in 3.0 then with PF the penaltis for cross class were mostly gone.

The end result is the class lost alot of its perks.

I dont really think lowering the ninjas SA dice is the answer though. Mostly loosing the FRee per day use of some of the powers followed by forced trick chains for some of the tricks.. like vanishing trick having a pre-req


Out of combat, the Ninja & Rogue are about the same, skill-wise. In combat, Ninja's better. & it doesn't matter what they call it, a varianted class trades equivalent abilities, not trades abilities for stronger ones & gains a few extra abilities on top of that. Ergo, this is not a real variant.


If 70% of the game is based on combat, class viability is based on combat, and we are looking at a book about combat for all classes, should we not expect that the rogue's new talents will bring an increase in viability?

I think circumstance is what the rogue is built for. Sneak attack is circumstantial after all.

And everything I've read on the boards here basically blames the ninja's heavy-handedness on the fact that their abilities are supernatural ones mostly based on spells of higher level than they should be.

IE vanish (instant success on sneak) and mirror image (instant replacement for AC).

If the rogue could use those even once per day via a talent, would that even balance them? What about making the ninja's supernatural abilities more circumstantial in use? Like, making vanish only usable near shadowy areas or mirror image available only after soaking an attack?

I want to say you're right about not yanking the ninja's SA, Mojorat. It wouldn't make much sense.

I don't know...

Infernos, I can see your point, especially when looking at what started this trend (the paladin/anti-paladin) but even in that case they aren't really equal. The pally's healing is arguably much more worth using (due its action saving potential) than the anti-pally's lousy touch attacks. And really, the anti-pally isn't as good of an evil tank as an evil fighter because of the loss of healing (and therefor staying power). So is balance with the source even an issue when looking at alternate classes?

If the ninja turns out to be more capable than a rogue, I'd see that as a mistake on the part of Paizo's writers, but not having a really cool ninja to play would be a bigger mistake.


James Bolton wrote:

If 70% of the game is based on combat, class viability is based on combat, and we are looking at a book about combat for all classes, should we not expect that the rogue's new talents will bring an increase in viability?

I think circumstance is what the rogue is built for. Sneak attack is circumstantial after all.

And everything I've read on the boards here basically blames the ninja's heavy-handedness on the fact that their abilities are supernatural ones mostly based on spells of higher level than they should be.

IE vanish (instant success on sneak) and mirror image (instant replacement for AC).

If the rogue could use those even once per day via a talent, would that even balance them? What about making the ninja's supernatural abilities more circumstantial in use? Like, making vanish only usable near shadowy areas or mirror image available only after soaking an attack?

I want to say you're right about not yanking the ninja's SA, Mojorat. It wouldn't make much sense.

I don't know...

Infernos, I can see your point, especially when looking at what started this trend (the paladin/anti-paladin) but even in that case they aren't really equal. The pally's healing is arguably much more worth using (due its action saving potential) than the anti-pally's lousy touch attacks. And really, the anti-pally isn't as good of an evil tank as an evil fighter because of the loss of healing (and therefor staying power). So is balance with the source even an issue when looking at alternate classes?

If the ninja turns out to be more capable than a rogue, I'd see that as a mistake on the part of Paizo's writers, but not having a really cool ninja to play would be a bigger mistake.

I disagree I don't think ALL the Ninja Tricks should be available to the rogue, some yes but not all, if they were then there would be no need to play a Ninja. It needs to have a bit of something the Rogue does not have to make it stand out from the rogue.


I agree.

Are a ki pool and exotic weapons not enough?

I guess in order to differentiate it as an alternate class (rather than an archetype), I'd say not...

Still, what ninjas get currently certainly outweighs what they give up from not being simple rogues, and though I do agree that they need differentiation, I wonder at what extent?


So it really comes down too the Issue of "Good in Combat vs Not as Good in Combat" ... cause every thing i read in these posts on the Various Threads all boils down to that. The rouge has always been A ROUGE not a fighter after all. so if you build a Ninja alt class in a Alt combat book ... shouldn't it be better in Combat? cause i really do think that its not as good outside of combat in the Skills area as the rouge and to make it more apparent then knock the ninja's skills down a little. cause Mojorat is right combat is 70% of the game is not Combat and try a GOOD dungeon crawl with out one and see how that turns out ... the pretty blood spatter painting of the barbarian who runs through the traps is a plus but not very effective.


I'd be down for a new Rogue Talent (Ninja Trick), which allows the rogue to get exactly one ninja trick, much like how a ninja can only select on rogue talent.

That and removing some of that "free the first time a day stuff".

Also, UC is adding a bunch of new Rogue Talents as well to the plate, so we don't know what kind of balance they're looking at there.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Don´t you guys think a lot of this depends on your playing style?
If you always max everything to damage output and survivability, there is not so much room left for roleplaying.
With the right feats and items i can bring a rogue to do a lot of damage,
same as the Ninja.
Actually my old Drow rogue had slightly more damage output.
Ninja´s rely on Sneak Attack and flanking just like rogues.
So why nerf that?
In order to have them make less damage because they have some stuff like the Ninja Tricks? I really cannot see the point there.
To get a strong DC on the Ninja Tricks, Charisma has to be pumped up, leaving STR, DEX and CON with lesser resources, what balances a lot.
And otherwise you dont have a lot of ki points.
1/2 level + CHA modifier, whats that at level 10?
With maxed CHA its 10 without items.
So you can do essentially 10 Ninja Tricks at level 10 plus the free use stuff, not forgetting that some Tricks like fast stealth and deadly range take up trick slots.
Actually, my Ninja relies on Disguising a lot.
Poison plays a great role too, because if she cannot flank or sneak attack, there is not much of a chance.


Again, I point this out again, Ninja > Rogue at combat, while at the very least Ninja = Rogue out of combat. That's a big, Palladium-style design problem, especially considering that counting up total abilities(not options, but actually obtained abilities), Ninja has more than Rogue(& that's not including the quality gap). You can't have variants that give more than they take. It just doesn't work.

Also, even with new Rogue tricks being added to the mix, that shouldn't change much, if the new tricks are too much better than existing ones, then the game balance goes out of whack.

From a fantasy RPG standpoint, there's honestly no good reason for a Ninja to be more much effective overall than the Rogue. If you don't think so...
*Ninja: stealth infiltrator/assassin that utilizes cleaver fighting, mystic powers, & crafty tricks to get the edge in combat. Also may be in your courtyard disguised as the gardener right now.
*Rogue: stealth infiltrator/manipulator/thief/adventurer that utilizes cleaver fighting & crafty tricks to get the edge in combat. Also may be stealing your clothing off your body while you're reading this. By the way, your daughter is now pregnant.

Dark Archive

Okay, I have to bring up one point. I pick a Rogue when I want to handle traps. Although the Ninja is capable of this, the Rogue gets bonuses towards their ability every few levels. Honestly, when looking at it that way, I view the Rogue as stronger outside of combat while Ninja is stronger inside of combat.

If you want to argue the advantages, there is no argument on the traps, as any experienced trap-finding-monkey knows, even a +1 can mean all the difference.


There's still a spell for that... But I digress. Ninja has to actually be stronger than Rogue in combat for that to work. However, the power gap's too great at the moment. It's stronger than Rogue by more than it really needs to be.

The out of combat abilities of Ninja are better than Rogue, too, such as that ability for being able to cross bodies of water or even molten-freaking lava without sinking or getting hurt. Trapfinding aint got jack on that.

Dark Archive

The problem isn't the strength of the ninja, it's the weakness of the rogue.


What, no boiling of ninja?

...

danged misleading thread titles

-S

Grand Lodge

I have to agree that compared to the rogue the ninja is far superior in every way save the lack of trapfinding, and evasion! to big, BIG abilities the Rogue.

I agree that the rogue is weak, and I believe that both the UC and UM might have a few extra tricks or theme substitutions to help off set this. personally I believe the ninjas' sneak attack needs to be a slower advancement than the rogues to help scale it back scince the rogue to me should be far better at it as they have no real magical trick to help pull off thier sneak attacks

Oh and this was my first post!


Welcome to the forums...

Anyway. I don't see how the Rogue is weak... Excluding dedicated spellcasters, what is Rogue noticeably weak compared to?


Personally, I don't see the Rogue as weak. In campaigns I have run as the GM using Pathfinder, the Rogue PC in the party has more or less saved the say on a couple occasions (thanks to that nifty trap-finding and trap sense that Ninjas don't get). Just like any other class, it has its weaknesses (especially combat when they are a Gnome Rogue), but compared to other PCs, they have their niche in a party: piling up lots of different types of skill ranks (thus making them useful for a variety of checks for information), for flanking, and for traps.

Granted, each Rogue, based on feats and talents, can have other places to fill, but if you want to be combat-based, especially just using the Core, you go Fighter, Barbarian, Monk, Ranger, or even Paladin or tank-like Cleric. Rogue is more of a support-style class, like an Abjuration School Wizard or a Bard, that happens to have some nice bonuses when it comes to certain aspects of combat. A Ninja is merely giving some extra combat abilities while shrinking on out of combat (especially, as Critzible noted, trap-finding). And, while yes, there is a spell to correct this, you have to blow a prepared spell or a spell slot (which probably could have some more useful element to it) for something a Rogue gets naturally. I feel like, if a few of the adjustments mentioned throughout the forums, especially things like limiting skill ranks and part of it more towards Monk, the Ninja will quickly become on par with the Rogue.


Giving up Trapfinding & delaying when you can have Evasion really doesn't doesn't do enough to offset the abilities Ninja gains over Rogue. The talents generally are better, there are entire class features that are added without trading anything off, & it still gets 8 + Int Mod skill ranks. That means that Trapfinding is purely literally the only utilitarian thing Rogue gets that Ninja doesn't, as Evasion is primarily a combat ability.

In fact, other than the Trapfinding/Poison use trade off, pretty much every other ability trade off gives more than it takes. Trapsense < disguise bonus, upping the DC vs being tracked, & giving a situational stealth bonus. It's really not an equal trade. Hidden Master... just read it. I'll wait... *waits* See what I mean?! And of course, absolutely nothing is given up for Light Steps, which is a really potent ability.

Additionally, I really can't think of why the Ninja would need Trapfinding any noticeable amount less than Rogue.

Grand Lodge

The ninja really needs to be a class unto its self and be tailored more towards a combo class, like the ranger or the paladin. It needs to drop to 6 + Int skill points, scence alot of its abilities boosts its stats. I also see it to have a slower back stab rate. Though I feel that it should be an alternative to the rogue, like a barbarian is to the fighter.

Also why on the subject ninjas' take away from the assassin prestidge class as well. I do though hope with the coming of the UC that rogues will be able to gain hide in plain sight ability as a trick.


In my experience, the playstyle is different. Most people who play ninjas are avoiding the things that really make the rogue shine; they have to, generally speaking. You could take the Skill Mastery Rogue Talent, at the cost of nifty ninja abilities, but why would you? The rogue, on the other hand, should always take it; it's too potent an ability to not take it. A ninja who takes it is literally nerfing themselves.

Also, catering to the public is a perfectly acceptable reason for a class. People will want to play ninjas for flavor more than any other reason; why would anyone play an underpowered sorcerer when wizards exist? Why play a cleric when a battle oracle is so much more effective in terms of combat capacity than the cleric? Certainly you could play a ninja, who is much more combat effective than a rogue, supposedly, but then again, rogues have a type of versatility that the ninja, by dint of it's very iconic nature, will never be given by the players. You can refluff a rogue into almost anything you like; trying to refluff a ninja that way is kind of silly.

Shadow Lodge

Critzible wrote:
The ninja really needs to be a class unto its self and be tailored more towards a combo class...

I disagree. If anything, both it and the samurai should be scaled back to be more in line with "regular" archtypes rather than "alternate classes". Because really, both are more a matter of fluff differences than mechanical ones.


Mnemaxa wrote:
A ninja who takes it is literally nerfing themselves

I'll just let the problems that statement emphasizes speak for themselves...

Mnemaxa wrote:
why would anyone play an underpowered sorcerer when wizards exist?

Bad example. 1, in Pathfinder, they're more balanced. 2, in D&D Sorcerer was still useful if you were new to the game or lazy.

Mnemaxa wrote:
Why play a cleric when a battle oracle is so much more effective in terms of combat capacity than the cleric?

Cleric's still just as sound in combat mechanically, so that's a bad example...

Mnemaxa wrote:
trying to refluff a ninja that way is kind of silly.

Except that part where most of the mechanics are the same as Rogue, but better, so if you don't need Trapfinding(which some groups never seem to), you can do what the Rogue can, while still being stronger.

Critzible wrote:
The ninja really needs to be a class unto its self and be tailored more towards a combo class...

If it were more than simply an OP Rogue "variant" & were more unique in its structure, it wouldn't be so easy to argue the OP & broken nature of this writeup. So, I guess the seemingly lazy structuring is a blessing for mechanics balance arguments.


InfernosReaper wrote:

Again, I point this out again, Ninja > Rogue at combat, while at the very least Ninja = Rogue out of combat. That's a big, Palladium-style design problem, especially considering that counting up total abilities(not options, but actually obtained abilities), Ninja has more than Rogue(& that's not including the quality gap). You can't have variants that give more than they take. It just doesn't work.

Also, even with new Rogue tricks being added to the mix, that shouldn't change much, if the new tricks are too much better than existing ones, then the game balance goes out of whack.

From a fantasy RPG standpoint, there's honestly no good reason for a Ninja to be more much effective overall than the Rogue. If you don't think so...
*Ninja: stealth infiltrator/assassin that utilizes cleaver fighting, mystic powers, & crafty tricks to get the edge in combat. Also may be in your courtyard disguised as the gardener right now.
*Rogue: stealth infiltrator/manipulator/thief/adventurer that utilizes cleaver fighting & crafty tricks to get the edge in combat. Also may be stealing your clothing off your body while you're reading this. By the way, your daughter is now pregnant.

I agree.

The way I see it is that the Ninja is just plain better than the Rogue. He can do almost everything the Rogue can do and he can have Ninja abilities. The Rogue can't do a lot of what the Ninja can do. Therefore, why play a Rogue when a Ninja is clearly better?

That and the forgotten trick ability needs to be revised. I'm thinking the 20th level super invisibility thing is a bit much too.

We're starting a Ninja play test this Friday so I'll have more input then.


Dear Selgard,

My humblest apologies, sir. I'll throw some ninjas in the pot next time I start a thread. You'll be the first invited! Now... how to prepare them first?


I hear Ninja's better fried than boiled, but I've yet to try either... Perhaps we can scrounge up enough Ninja for both & see which is better?


I added two levels of ninja to a lamia matriarch in place of the two levels of rogue that were written up in the adventure I'm running.

It's awesome, because the ki powers she has been using, combined with her lamia abilities, have the players quaking in their boots.

She is already a good two weapon fighter, so adding one extra attack really freaks the players out.

When losing a fight where she was badly outnumbered, she used the bonus to acrobatics to get away clean from a room full of PCs and NPCs, then followed up with the movement bonus to really increase the distance.

All in all, turning out to be a great big bad because of the combination of combat threat and survivability.

Not sure I could make a rogue quite as threatening. The ki powers are great.

I think dialing some things back for balance may be a good idea. Fewer skills are probably in order.

It seems like it will be hard to keep the rogue and ninja classes balanced with each other and still keep the ninja flavor. I think this is partially due to the fact the the ninja archetype is just more specialized and "powerful" than the rogue, which is a much broader cultural archetype.


Critzible wrote:
I have to agree that compared to the rogue the ninja is far superior in every way save the lack of trapfinding, and evasion! to big, BIG abilities the Rogue.

Hi, and welcome!

It's hilarious when you look at the rogue archetypes and see what giving up on trapfinding and trapsense - they are usually extremely situational and considerably worse than the base, or the ninja one. I wonder if the ninja wasn't an attempt to overcompensate - frankly, at most I'd be willing to trade the rogue ability the ninja loses for the various uses of the ki pool, and even then it would be a good deal for the rogue. The rest the ninja gets is gravy.

It's weird, though, I think the rogue class offered pretty decent abilities to play a ninja already. Why was a new class even necessary?

Scarab Sages

ninja's don't have evasion....


Mcarvin wrote:
ninja's don't have evasion....

Oh of course, that totally offsets EVERYTHING else.


Mcarvin wrote:
ninja's don't have evasion....

Not base, but they can get it at level 10+ as an advanced talent. For all that matters, that's more or less when rangers get it. So they lose out on trapfinding, trap sense, and delay evasion (unless they think it's not good enough for a rogue talent). They get poison use, no trace, light steps, and ki.

Overall, I'd say No Trace is about equal to Trap Sense (scaling situational bonuses), while poison use and light step offset trapfinding. Actually the poisoner rogue archetype substitutes TF for only poison use, but I'd say that's a rather poor deal at higher levels. The ki pool is imo the real difference maker between the two classes - if the rogue had something like that (like the inspiration pool of the 3.5 factotum) they'd be about even. It would also even out some talents, where the rogue can do X once/day, while the ninja can pay ki to use it more.

Scarab Sages

The Shaman wrote:
Mcarvin wrote:
ninja's don't have evasion....

Not base, but they can get it at level 10+ as an advanced talent. For all that matters, that's more or less when rangers get it. So they lose out on trapfinding, trap sense, and delay evasion (unless they think it's not good enough for a rogue talent). They get poison use, no trace, light steps, and ki.

Overall, I'd say No Trace is about equal to Trap Sense (scaling situational bonuses), while poison use and light step offset trapfinding. Actually the poisoner rogue archetype substitutes TF for only poison use, but I'd say that's a rather poor deal at higher levels. The ki pool is imo the real difference maker between the two classes - if the rogue had something like that (like the inspiration pool of the 3.5 factotum) they'd be about even. It would also even out some talents, where the rogue can do X once/day, while the ninja can pay ki to use it more.

I'd trade a Ki pool for Evasion any day...


The Shaman wrote:
Mcarvin wrote:
ninja's don't have evasion....

Not base, but they can get it at level 10+ as an advanced talent. For all that matters, that's more or less when rangers get it. So they lose out on trapfinding, trap sense, and delay evasion (unless they think it's not good enough for a rogue talent). They get poison use, no trace, light steps, and ki.

Overall, I'd say No Trace is about equal to Trap Sense (scaling situational bonuses), while poison use and light step offset trapfinding. Actually the poisoner rogue archetype substitutes TF for only poison use, but I'd say that's a rather poor deal at higher levels. The ki pool is imo the real difference maker between the two classes - if the rogue had something like that (like the inspiration pool of the 3.5 factotum) they'd be about even. It would also even out some talents, where the rogue can do X once/day, while the ninja can pay ki to use it more.

Don't forget ninjas also get to be MAD for charisma.


Anburaid wrote:
Don't forget ninjas also get to be MAD for charisma.

The ninja MADness is quite overrated, imo. In fact, a ninja can probably do quite well with middling charisma such as 12-14 - it's only used to generate your total ki points and for a few tricks. It's useful, but not nearly as important as it is for bards or paladins or wisdom is for monks.


They use it for a few primary skills,as well.


I got by in Serpent's Skull with a 10 Charisma.

It's very easy. Step 1: Don't blow all of your ki points in one fight. There, done.


the big problem with the ninja is that it is an archtype.

here is my suggestion

take the abilities of this alternate Variant called "ninja"

take the "archtype" apart and turn it's unique component pieces into a series of rogue talents instead.

this will fix the rogue and still provide a 'ninja' option for those who wish to play one.

i still want to see an 'unarmored' miko archtype for either clerics or oracles.

Scarab Sages

I've seen both the classes and I've heard the issues people have with the ninja. I do believe that the ninja has a certain WOW factor to it when you first start reading. But, I quickly found it to be relatively balanced and not an issue. Although you might ignore my opinion because I also believe that, despite many peoples opinions, the rogue is a balanced class and not lacking in "power".


Mcarvin wrote:
Although you might ignore my opinion because I also believe that, despite many peoples opinions, the rogue is a balanced class and not lacking in "power".

"Balanced" is a flexible category. If, say, the rogue had a "cunning" pool like the ki pool the ninja did, and everything else stayed the same, it would probably still not be broken. It would, however, be somewhat stronger. That is about the difference the two classes have at present, imo.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The big problem is not the Ninja or its abilities, it is that it is a variant of a crap class and made better.

You cannot balance the Ninja against the Rogue without making it a crappy class that few people want to play. Before the Ninja came about there are plenty of threads talking about the Rogue lacking in combat. Making a Ninja based on the Rogue and making him crap as well is just a silly idea.


The Shaman wrote:
Anburaid wrote:
Don't forget ninjas also get to be MAD for charisma.
The ninja MADness is quite overrated, imo. In fact, a ninja can probably do quite well with middling charisma such as 12-14 - it's only used to generate your total ki points and for a few tricks. It's useful, but not nearly as important as it is for bards or paladins or wisdom is for monks.

While this is true that you don't need a high charisma, it is quite possible that the costs of ninja ki talents will go up in the final product. A lot of people said in the playtest that free uses we unnecessary. So perhaps middling CHA will not be so easy to get by with when Ultimate Combat does drop.


Anburaid wrote:
While this is true that you don't need a high charisma, it is quite possible that the costs of ninja ki talents will go up in the final product. A lot of people said in the playtest that free uses we unnecessary. So perhaps middling CHA will not be so easy to get by with when Ultimate Combat does drop.

/shrug. Oh, I'm sure it would be useful, but that still won't make the ninja particularly MAD compared to classes like the bard, paladin, ranger or monk. Or you could sack a feat for Extra ki, which gives you the same uses as if your charisma was 3-4 points higher.

Now, sure, if the ninja does remain a cha-based ki class (which imo still is meh since the monk is wis-based, for all the justifications people can come up with), I'll probably have a decent charisma if I ever want to play one. Then again, said charisma will be handy more for the eldritch bloodline (serpentine) - poisonous bite attack can be so nice, especially when it comes with several handful of SA d6s...

I still would have preferred the ninja to be wis-based like in CAdv, and the rogue to get an "inspiration" pool similar to the ninja ki pool so the two are more or less even.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Main problem that I'm looking at in Ultimate Combat is the fact that whatever Rogue gets.. the Ninja can pick up too, with the exception of Advanced Rogue Talents. And even at that point, why should the Rogue have to wait until 10+ to get the nifty stuff Ninja's wouldn't qualify for?

On top of that, the Poison bomb is a useful talent! Why does it have to be a ninja only/Ki based talent? Couldn't I put inhaled poisons into a smoke bomb like device? Pssht I say.... Psssssssht.

As it stands, the Ninja is less of a variant and more of a combat focused Monk/Rogue.


Gloom wrote:
Main problem that I'm looking at in Ultimate Combat is the fact that whatever Rogue gets.. the Ninja can pick up too, with the exception of Advanced Rogue Talents.

They can, at least as per the playtest version on the Pathfinder SRD site:

"Advanced Talents: The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select improved evasion unless she has evasion (either as a class feature or as a ninja master trick)."


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Shaman wrote:
Gloom wrote:
Main problem that I'm looking at in Ultimate Combat is the fact that whatever Rogue gets.. the Ninja can pick up too, with the exception of Advanced Rogue Talents.

They can, at least as per the playtest version on the Pathfinder SRD site:

"Advanced Talents: The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select improved evasion unless she has evasion (either as a class feature or as a ninja master trick)."

Wow.. okay, did not notice that.

So the Ninja gets more then every other Rogue Variant at this time, including a new subset of Rogue Talents labeled Ninja tricks.. The rogue cannot get any of them at this time. So a Ninja is basically a battle focused Rogue..? Eh.. Not sure how I feel about that.


I think the ninja isn't necessarily battle-focused - it trades trapfinding and trap sense for poison use, ki powers, no trace and light step. Basically, it loses a little in dungeon exploration, and its tricks tend to be less socially inclined... yet (the rogue got a few social abilities in the APG).

Scarab Sages

The Shaman wrote:
I think the ninja isn't necessarily battle-focused - it trades trapfinding and trap sense for poison use, ki powers, no trace and light step. Basically, it loses a little in dungeon exploration, and its tricks tend to be less socially inclined... yet (the rogue got a few social abilities in the APG).

It doesn't have evasion....


Mcarvin wrote:


It doesn't have evasion....

/facedesk

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