Oracle: Life Mystery


Rules Questions


13 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

So I was playing an Oracle with the Life Mystery when I inevitably came across the fact that the bonus spell at level 17 was mass cure critical wounds (8th level spell), found this odd as I already got that spell from being an Oracle. Did a quick google found the errata and it says that I get mass heal and a bonus spell at level 16 (fixes that level error). Well the problem is mass heal is a 9th level spell and Oracles don't get 9th level spells until level 18.

Is mass heal an 8th level spell for Oracles, or is this another case of Paizo not paying attention to its own rules?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

No, Life Mystery Oracles just get mass heal earlier than usual.


Scipion del Ferro wrote:
No, Life Mystery Oracles just get mass heal earlier than usual.

they get MOST of their spells earlier than usual O.o

I mean LOOK at that list, i'm pretty sure from spell level 2 on up the spells on the list are actually one spell level higher.


Make sure to look at the Errata for the APG. First version shows Oracle Life Spells happening at Odd Levels instead of Even (which it should be)


I am playing a Life Oracle also and am level 7 at the moment. The bonus spell neutralize poison is a 4th level spell but the Oracle does not get it 4th level spells until 8th is there a way that the Oracle can use the spell or is it just a bonus goodie for later.


Karjak Rustscale wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
No, Life Mystery Oracles just get mass heal earlier than usual.

they get MOST of their spells earlier than usual O.o

I mean LOOK at that list, i'm pretty sure from spell level 2 on up the spells on the list are actually one spell level higher.

You're right, most of them are too high for the oracle to cast at the time she gets them (checked the PFSRD). Does that mean oracles get some spells that they can't cast? :/ That's odd.


Karjak Rustscale wrote:
Scipion del Ferro wrote:
No, Life Mystery Oracles just get mass heal earlier than usual.

they get MOST of their spells earlier than usual O.o

I mean LOOK at that list, i'm pretty sure from spell level 2 on up the spells on the list are actually one spell level higher.

OK so here is the break down. Listed as

level:bonus spell

  • Spell Level
  • Highest level spell Oracle can cast

Spell Level Break Down:

2nd: Detect Undead
  • Level 1
  • Oracle: SP level 1

4th: Lesser Restoration
  • Level 2
  • Oracle: SP level 2

6th: Neutralize Poison
  • Level 4
  • Oracle: SP level 3

8th: Restoration
  • Level 4
  • Oracle: SP level 4

10th: Breath of Life
  • Level 5
  • Oracle: SP level 5

12th: Heal
  • Level 6
  • Oracle: SP level 6

14th: Greater Restoration
  • Level 7
  • Oracle: SP level 7

16th: Mass Heal
  • Level 9
  • Oracle: SP level 8

18th: True Resurrection
  • Level 9
  • Oracle: SP level 9

By Looking at this there are two problems. The oracle gets there 6th level bonus spell Neutralize Poison, which is a 4th level spell, when they can only cast 3rd level spells. Also the oracles 16th level bonus spell Mass Heal, a 9th level spell, when the oracle can only cast 8th level spells.

So, are Neutralize Poison and Mass Heal considered to be of the appropriate level so the oracle can cast them when they get them, or does the oracle need to wait 2 levels before they are allowed to cast them?

NOTE: I am using the Errata which fixes several of the spell level errors.


Let's flip this around. How would an oracle gain access to spells they cannot cast? They aren't necessarily divinely powered directly from the gods; they aren't going to be studying ancient texts. And even if a higher power were involved, what's the point of giving an oracle a spell they can't cast? Doesn't seem logical, does it? Now look at the mechanics side of things. The oracle receives a new spell every couple levels. Maybe the spell should fall into their highest-level slot, if we assume the 1st spell is a 1st-level spell?

I think people are getting too hung up on the fact that some spells the Life oracle gets are at a given level for the baseline core classes and forgetting that it's already established the classes can receive spells at different levels from one another. Is it also so bad to get neutralize poison a little earlier (like druids), given you're an oracle dedicated to Life itself? Is mass heal so horrible to have a level earlier? No, those spells that are early reinforce the role of the Life oracle as a master healer. No errors there.


Lathiira wrote:

Let's flip this around. How would an oracle gain access to spells they cannot cast? They aren't necessarily divinely powered directly from the gods; they aren't going to be studying ancient texts. And even if a higher power were involved, what's the point of giving an oracle a spell they can't cast? Doesn't seem logical, does it? Now look at the mechanics side of things. The oracle receives a new spell every couple levels. Maybe the spell should fall into their highest-level slot, if we assume the 1st spell is a 1st-level spell?

I think people are getting too hung up on the fact that some spells the Life oracle gets are at a given level for the baseline core classes and forgetting that it's already established the classes can receive spells at different levels from one another. Is it also so bad to get neutralize poison a little earlier (like druids), given you're an oracle dedicated to Life itself? Is mass heal so horrible to have a level earlier? No, those spells that are early reinforce the role of the Life oracle as a master healer. No errors there.

I do agree with this in every way. I was just getting hung up on that fact that the oracle spell section reads: "An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists". Since it is established that the oracle uses the cleric list, not another like druid or ranger, I was wanting to make sure that the spells the oracle gains early simply fall into the highest level they can cast not into one they can't, which is what would happen if they follow the clerics spell list verbatim.


Master_Drow, you also need to look at the sorcerer, as mechanically that is the closest analogue to the oracle. A sorcerer gets bloodline spells that are not always from their own class list, and those spells may occur at a different level than the source class list. I find it's easiest to just think of the bonus spells as just that: bonus spells known. Don't worry about their source other than Core Rulebook, APG, or other, and ignore that pesky "level" line when you look up what they do. Otherwise, people tend to outthink themselves or think themselves into the box, not out of it :)

Sovereign Court

If an oracle gets a spell as a bonus spell, it will be for the next slot that they haven't had a bonus spell yet.


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
If an oracle gets a spell as a bonus spell, it will be for the next slot that they haven't had a bonus spell yet.

excluding the Cure/Inflict they get for free mind.

and yeah, I always see it as your Bonus spell is just the highest spell level you can cast at the time you get it.

so Neutralise poison is a third level spell for the Life Oracle and Mass Heal is an 8th.


Karjak Rustscale wrote:
Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
If an oracle gets a spell as a bonus spell, it will be for the next slot that they haven't had a bonus spell yet.

excluding the Cure/Inflict they get for free mind.

and yeah, I always see it as your Bonus spell is just the highest spell level you can cast at the time you get it.

so Neutralise poison is a third level spell for the Life Oracle and Mass Heal is an 8th.

Except, that's not how spell levels work. The Oracle class "casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists (see pages 226-229 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook)."

That means that all these spells we're talking about are accessed by the Oracle at the same spell levels as the Cleric. And, like the Sorcerer to the Wizard, the Oracle gets spell levels a level 'late' (except 1st).

When a spontaneous casting class gets an extra spell known, it is exactly that. It is added to their spells known list. They cast them just like all the other spells they know. It does not change the level of the spell.

SO...this is just a big, fat, woopsies!

The Oracle needs a spell list, or more simply, another errata for the bonus spells.


Domains and bloodlines and mysteries all can give spells at lower or higher spell levels.


Christopher Vrysen wrote:
Domains and bloodlines and mysteries all can give spells at lower or higher spell levels.

Absolutely! But they SAY that the spell is at a given level, such as in a domain: (3rd)restoration.

The bonus spells of the Oracle mysteries give levels at which the Oracle gains the bonus spell known, not the level of the spell. Therefore, the spell is treated as normal on the Oracle (Cleric) spell list.

I'm all for the mysteries listing spell level if they are supposed to be different, like a domain (mysteries are kinda super-domains).

But they don't.

Scarab Sages

Can'tFindthePath wrote:
That means that all these spells we're talking about are accessed by the Oracle at the same spell levels as the Cleric. And, like the Sorcerer to the Wizard, the Oracle gets spell levels a level 'late' (except 1st).

I believe you are wrong and Christopher Vrysen, Karjak Rustscale, and the general consensus is right. :D Otherwise, Life oracles are at a severe disadvantage compared to other oracles, and that is clearly not the intention. When a dab of common sense is all it takes, why willfully ignore it?


jtokay wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
That means that all these spells we're talking about are accessed by the Oracle at the same spell levels as the Cleric. And, like the Sorcerer to the Wizard, the Oracle gets spell levels a level 'late' (except 1st).
I believe you are wrong and Christopher Vrysen, Karjak Rustscale, and the general consensus is right. :D Otherwise, Life oracles are at a severe disadvantage compared to other oracles, and that is clearly not the intention. When a dab of common sense is all it takes, why willfully ignore it?

Well, I'm not suggesting that it makes sense as written, or that it doesn't need clarification. But, you all are making a rather large assumption. The fact is, we don't know the intention. The rules are quite clear as written, though obviously flawed; I hope we see an errata on this soon.


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I assume commons sense exists but such a fool am I?

PICS OR STFU!1!1!one!1

*shakes fist*


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
jtokay wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
That means that all these spells we're talking about are accessed by the Oracle at the same spell levels as the Cleric. And, like the Sorcerer to the Wizard, the Oracle gets spell levels a level 'late' (except 1st).
I believe you are wrong and Christopher Vrysen, Karjak Rustscale, and the general consensus is right. :D Otherwise, Life oracles are at a severe disadvantage compared to other oracles, and that is clearly not the intention. When a dab of common sense is all it takes, why willfully ignore it?
Well, I'm not suggesting that it makes sense as written, or that it doesn't need clarification. But, you all are making a rather large assumption. The fact is, we don't know the intention. The rules are quite clear as written, though obviously flawed; I hope we see an errata on this soon.

The bonus spells granted by Mysteries are add to the Orcacles spells known. It's not a long leap of logic to think that if a spell is granted by a mystery when the oracle is not able to cast spells of the level that spell is normally rated and does not gain a spell of the highest level they are currently able to cast that it is intended that the bonus spell be a spell of the highest level the Oracle is able to cast.

The life oracle gains a bonus 1st level spell. The Life Oracle then gains a bonus 2nd level spell. When the life oracle should gain a bonus 3rd level spell they have a 4th level spell listed. Well it seams intuitive to me that they intend Neutralize Poison to be a 3rd level spell for the Life Oracle.

I know it should be spelled out or mentioned in the text that describes Bonus spells from Mysteries but its not.

It functions along the same lines as Domains that sometimes grant spells a level lower or in some cases a level higher.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Master_Drow wrote:

So I was playing an Oracle with the Life Mystery when I inevitably came across the fact that the bonus spell at level 17 was mass cure critical wounds (8th level spell), found this odd as I already got that spell from being an Oracle. Did a quick google found the errata and it says that I get mass heal and a bonus spell at level 16 (fixes that level error). Well the problem is mass heal is a 9th level spell and Oracles don't get 9th level spells until level 18.

Is mass heal an 8th level spell for Oracles, or is this another case of Paizo not paying attention to its own rules?

I always figured they were getting the Druid version of neutralize poison, and that Lore Oracles were getting the Bard versions of tongues and legend lore.

Anyway, it's silly for them to get spells they can't yet cast. I'd say the intent is for mass heal to be 8th level just for them.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

If I were running a home campaign, I would reduce the level of the bonus spells so that the Oracle could cast them when he is given them.

Having said that, I don't run a home Pathfinder game. I play and GM under the PFS OP rules, and in that context, Oracles at my table wouldn't be able to cast the granted spells until the character reaches the commensurate level.


Question for Paizo staff:

Any chance of an official ruling?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
allardh wrote:

Question for Paizo staff:

Any chance of an official ruling?

In the corner of the first post, af '8 people marked it as FAQ candidate' it states 'not an error', so I would assume that it means it is intentional that life oracles get mass heal as a level 8 spell.


HaraldKlak wrote:


In the corner of the first post, af '8 people marked it as FAQ candidate' it states 'not an error', so I would assume that it means it is intentional that life oracles get mass heal as a level 8 spell.

You know, I had never seen the FAQ functionality before :)

Thanks!


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I didn't have any trouble accepting a life oracle receiving Mass Heal as a lvl 8 spell. Healing is what they are built for. Makes sense conceptually.

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