So as I read the other thread, myself as well as a lot of other people were thinking the thread was gonna be about role playing, but it wasn't so. So I thought id open up this thread to talk about how to get to them through the role playing aspect of the game. I'm really interested in this one since I have a dwarf fighter with a cha of 5 in my group.
So as I read the other thread, myself as well as a lot of other people were thinking the thread was gonna be about role playing, but it wasn't so. So I thought id open up this thread to talk about how to get to them through the role playing aspect of the game. I'm really interested in this one since I have a dwarf fighter with a cha of 5 in my group.
One thing it to have NPCs interact with them. A lot of times low CHA characters will just sit back and let the talkie people talk. Have the local lord/mayor/evil bard ask their opinion or thoughts on the matter in a public place. Remember to filter the comments they make through the low CHA.
Have the barmaids slap them. The "ladies of negotiable virtue" don't need the money bad enough to put up with them, there are other marks out there. Merchants might overcharge them. If they want a NPC wizard to enchant their sword, he might be "busy" for a very long time, and not be able to do the work.
One reason people dump CHA is that they think it never comes up. Unless you spend your entire life in dungeons killing things, you end up interacting with society/people quite a bit. Remind them of this.
So as I read the other thread, myself as well as a lot of other people were thinking the thread was gonna be about role playing, but it wasn't so. So I thought id open up this thread to talk about how to get to them through the role playing aspect of the game. I'm really interested in this one since I have a dwarf fighter with a cha of 5 in my group.One thing it to have NPCs interact with them. A lot of times low CHA characters will just sit back and let the talkie people talk. Have the local lord/mayor/evil bard ask their opinion or thoughts on the matter in a public place. Remember to filter the comments they make through the low CHA.
Have the barmaids slap them. The "ladies of negotiable virtue" don't need the money bad enough to put up with them, there are other marks out there. Merchants might overcharge them. If they want a NPC wizard to enchant their sword, he might be "busy" for a very long time, and not be able to do the work.
One reason people dump CHA is that they think it never comes up. Unless you spend your entire life in dungeons killing things, you end up interacting with society/people quite a bit. Remind them of this.
I dont think constantly penalizing them for having a low charisma is going to get them roleplaying. If anything it will make them back off more.
I dont think constantly penalizing them for having a low charisma is going to get them roleplaying. If anything it will make them back off more.So as I read the other thread, myself as well as a lot of other people were thinking the thread was gonna be about role playing, but it wasn't so. So I thought id open up this thread to talk about how to get to them through the role playing aspect of the game. I'm really interested in this one since I have a dwarf fighter with a cha of 5 in my group.One thing it to have NPCs interact with them. A lot of times low CHA characters will just sit back and let the talkie people talk. Have the local lord/mayor/evil bard ask their opinion or thoughts on the matter in a public place. Remember to filter the comments they make through the low CHA.
Have the barmaids slap them. The "ladies of negotiable virtue" don't need the money bad enough to put up with them, there are other marks out there. Merchants might overcharge them. If they want a NPC wizard to enchant their sword, he might be "busy" for a very long time, and not be able to do the work.
One reason people dump CHA is that they think it never comes up. Unless you spend your entire life in dungeons killing things, you end up interacting with society/people quite a bit. Remind them of this.
I don't use this to get the role playing. They do that on their own. But u can't expect a player with a 5 cha (yes a 5, not a +5, 5 is his actual ability score) to walk into every place and get what he needs and not piss people off all the time. Its just like dumping int or str. When it comes to carrying capacity and melee, low str makes u suffer. When it comes to int based skills and such, a low int makes u suffer.
When it comes to social interaction and role playing, a low cha makes u suffer. A lot of people will play their characters as if they have a normal cha, but when ur in the negatives, this isn't normal, but they role play it anyways. I've only seen a few people with a low cha role play a low cha character correctly in social encounters. they need to be reminded that although they are role playing that their character is not good at it, or he brings a negative vibe that is counter productive to his goals.
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A repost from that other thread...
Instead of threatening your players with drains and spells to coax them to not dump a stat, instead, give them incentive to want to have an ok Charisma. For example, maybe the fighter wants to be a nobleman (but not a cavalier) and good with high society. Telling him that an ok Charisma + some points in Cha based skills will get him much closer to that dream. Just remember that the fighter will need to put points in the stats that benefit his class first. An 8+ Charisma plus some skills in the skills should be good.
Remember, It's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar.
I dont think constantly penalizing them for having a low charisma is going to get them roleplaying. If anything it will make them back off more.
Sorry, I thought the point of this thread was how to make people pay a price for dumping CHA, but from a RP standpoint, not a mechanical standpoint. If the goal is to get them to roleplay more, that's a diferent story.
I've seen people who actually RP low CHAs. Chiming into delicate negotiations with inane comments, general b&@*+iness, abrasive personalities, etc. Good roleplayers will RP both the high and the low.
It might be my time playing hero system, a point buy system, where if you only gets points for a disadvantage if it is actually disadvantageous. So if you want "takes 2x damage from laser rifles" either the GM is not going to give you any points for it, or you should be expecting some aliens with ray guns to be showing up from time to time.
People buying their CHA down makes me feel the same way. You are getting points to put elsewhere, but they are not free. You should expect to have to pay for your choice, and because it's charisma, it will be in social situations.
I don't use this to get the role playing. They do that on their own. But u can't expect a player with a 5 cha (yes a 5, not a +5, 5 is his actual ability score) to walk into every place and get what he needs and not piss people off all the time. Its just like dumping int or str. When it comes to carrying capacity and melee, low str makes u suffer. When it comes to int based skills and such, a low int makes u suffer.
When it comes to social interaction and role playing, a low cha makes u suffer. A lot of people will play their characters as if they have a normal cha, but when ur in the negatives, this isn't normal, but they role play it anyways. I've only seen a few people with a low cha role play a low cha character correctly in social encounters. they need to be reminded that although they are role playing that their character is not good at it, or he brings a negative vibe that is counter productive to his goals.
Perhaps i misunderstood, but I thought the purpose of the thread was how to get low charisma characters to not hide behind the talkers and roleplay. Is that not case?
Because yes they shouldn't be as good or even competant at things in social situations. They cant sweet talk guards, or charm wenches. But being socially inept doesnt mean merchants try to cheat your or random bar maids pour drinks on your head without some kind of conversation. There is a difference between reminding a player of a limitation and penalyzing him for something associated with his character.
If a player is talking it up more then you think his charisma should allow the way to explain it to them is not to suddenly have every NPC suddenly take a disliking to them. Take them aside or talk to them away from the table and explain yourself. People have different views on what things mean. Some people (not unjustly) separate roll from role. They may believe that a low charisma only applies to actual checks, and not what and how you say things. If you think differently, its your job as the GM to explain things and get the players on the same page.
The same goes for roleplaying low (or high) int and wisdom. Its easy to imagine someone with high or low physical stats and to play it out. But the mental ones are harder. We only have our own minds as frame of reference. We have one person in our group that is simply unable to roleplay high wisdom. He is impulsive and rarely thinks things through, so his characters dont either, whether his wisdom is 5 or 25. It is his limitation as a human being, not some effort to circumvent the limitations of his stats.
A repost from that other thread...
Instead of threatening your players with drains and spells to coax them to not dump a stat, instead, give them incentive to want to have an ok Charisma. For example, maybe the fighter wants to be a nobleman (but not a cavalier) and good with high society. Telling him that an ok Charisma + some points in Cha based skills will get him much closer to that dream. Just remember that the fighter will need to put points in the stats that benefit his class first. An 8+ Charisma plus some skills in the skills should be good.
Remember, It's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar.
All my players are advanced and know what they are doing. If they are dumping cha that's on them. They already know what a high cha can do and that's on them if they want it or not so I'm not trying to teach them a lesson. Just trying to spice up the game a bit more when u have low cha players. Thanks for your input though. It will be put to good use.
I don't use this to get the role playing. They do that on their own. But u can't expect a player with a 5 cha (yes a 5, not a +5, 5 is his actual ability score) to walk into every place and get what he needs and not piss people off all the time. Its just like dumping int or str. When it comes to carrying capacity and melee, low str makes u suffer. When it comes to int based skills and such, a low int makes u suffer.
When it comes to social interaction and role playing, a low cha makes u suffer. A lot of people will play their characters as if they have a normal cha, but when ur in the negatives, this isn't normal, but they role play it anyways. I've only seen a few people with a low cha role play a low cha character correctly in social encounters. they need to be reminded that although they are role playing that their character is not good at it, or he brings a negative vibe that is counter productive to his goals.
Perhaps i misunderstood, but I thought the purpose of the thread was how to get low charisma characters to not hide behind the talkers and roleplay. Is that not case?
Because yes they shouldn't be as good or even competant at things in social situations. They cant sweet talk guards, or charm wenches. But being socially inept doesnt mean merchants try to cheat your or random bar maids pour drinks on your head without some kind of conversation. There is a difference between reminding a player of a limitation and penalyzing him for something associated with his character.
If a player is talking it up more then you think his charisma should allow the way to explain it to them is not to suddenly have every NPC suddenly take a disliking to them. Take them aside or talk to them away from the table and explain yourself. People have different views on what things mean. Some people (not unjustly) separate roll from role. They may believe that a low charisma only applies to actual checks, and not what and how you say things. If you think differently, its your...
Its not that. The low cha players will roleplay, so that's not the problem. What I'm looking for is how to run this situation because like I said, even though the low cha players have a negative modifier, they role play as if they have a 10 cha. They do like role play and try to role play but they don't take into account their cha score.
A little misunderstanding. No biggie.
We rarely dump charisma, intimidate, diplomacy , bluff, used ALL the time.
Yes we usually have the 'token' high CHR character do alot of stuff for us, BUT, the low CHR character is going to cause trouble and discord.
I really depends on how much you roleplay.
You can say whatever you like, but your chr based skills are going to decide how successful that was.
Example:
LOW chr dwarves and half-orcs have had to sleep in the stable before.
Certain NPCs have refused to deal with out group until "that guy" is gone.
LOW CHR players have had crimes or problems blamed on them, "the curse of the werewolf wouldnt BE here if it wasn't for HIM!"
Of course all this leads to as much fun and roleplaying as much as an 18 chr bard talking to trolls into not eating him, but that band of bugbears over yonder (who happen to have another party member captive) have been eating all the gnomes in the area, who are QUITE tasty, what? you havent seen any gnomes around here? Well all the more reason to get rid of those greedy bugbears! they're eating them all!! (true story)
We never dump chr on purpose, however we have had several low ones just because the bad roll had to go somewhere.
If I have an elf, the 8 will go to con often (i see elves as thin and fraile)
half orcs, its a toss up between wis and chr where i throw the dump...sometimes int.
Dwarves Ill usually dump dex. ( i see them as blocky) although a recent dwarf wizard i made i dumped the con, even with his +2 it was still a 9. so he was a tall then dwarf.
gnomes and halflings i will dump wis alot. (they seem the foolish type)
but we like our CHR based skills at our table. and RP wise low CHR is always bad.
Its not that. The low cha players will roleplay, so that's not the problem. What I'm looking for is how to run this situation because like I said, even though the low cha players have a negative modifier, they role play as if they have a 10 cha. They do like role play and try to role play but they don't take into account their cha score.A little misunderstanding. No biggie.
Ok, in that case I think the first step is a conversation. Unless you are a talented actor, it can be complicated to roleplay stats that are not near your own. It may not even be concious. Talk to the player, work with him/her to develop a personality/manerisms and to explain how you think a low charisma should be played. Come to some kind of concensus. And then you can provide general reminders about that concensus. IE: "Hey Jim, doesnt your character Grog always develop a tick around women?" "Oh yea, Grod twitches and stutters when he speaks to the pretty Noblewoman, 'Hi-hi-highness, it is m-m-m-my honor'.
Like I said many players may believe a low charisma is only related to diplomacy checks and sorceror spells. Its up to the dm to establish that in his game, this isnt the case, and work with the players to create a norm for them to work around.
But being socially inept doesnt mean merchants try to cheat your or random bar maids pour drinks on your head without some kind of conversation. There is a difference between reminding a player of a limitation and penalyzing him for something associated with his character.
So you have never seen instances in real life where a person with a speech impediment, or who are wall flowers, agoraphobics, etc. were taken advantage of by other folks who realized that this person either cant or wont communicate effectively to cause a problem for me if I rip them off?
I disagree with your premise as undead and such gets boosts to CHA (scary and they know it) there is a lot more to a low CHA than I'm ugly (by the undead example one could argue a high charisma could be ugly/horrific), it is an inability to communicate both verbally and non-verbally. A 5 score (-3) is pushing into things like neurological glossalia(you understand but the words come out wrong), severe autism possibly savant if the "mental" scores are high, and the like. You know the kinds of people we see sad stories in the news about every day for being taken advantage of by service providers/caretakers.
But being socially inept doesnt mean merchants try to cheat your or random bar maids pour drinks on your head without some kind of conversation. There is a difference between reminding a player of a limitation and penalyzing him for something associated with his character.So you have never seen instances in real life where a person with a speech impediment, or who are wall flowers, agoraphobics, etc. were taken advantage of by other folks who realized that this person either cant or wont communicate effectively to cause a problem for me if I rip them off?
I disagree with your premise as undead and such gets boosts to CHA (scary and they know it) there is a lot more to a low CHA than I'm ugly (by the undead example one could argue a high charisma could be ugly/horrific), it is an inability to communicate both verbally and non-verbally. A 5 score (-3) is pushing into things like neurological glossalia(you understand but the words come out wrong), severe autism possibly savant if the "mental" scores are high, and the like. You know the kinds of people we see sad stories in the news about every day for being taken advantage of by service providers/caretakers.
A 5 charisma doesnt make someone appear mentally inept. Just socially so. People may try to take advantage of someone with a 5 intelligence, but a 5 charisma does not an easy mark make. In fact I would imagine someone lacking social graces actually makes them a worse target, because they are far more likely to react poorly and make a scene.
Beyond the immediate affect of skills, and the exclusion of certain classes, feats, etc. you should develop a list of character disadvantages that would be associated with any attribute that is lower then 10, so characters know what to expect. But that may only change what dump stat they use, and I am not sure if it is worth a prolonged battle to force people to not use dump stats.
A 5 charisma doesnt make someone appear mentally inept. Just socially so. People may try to take advantage of someone with a 5 intelligence, but a 5 charisma does not an easy mark make. In fact I would imagine someone lacking social graces actually makes them a worse target, because they are far more likely to react poorly and make a scene.
No, a 5 charisma may make someone appear meantally inept. Making a scene, especially an effective one, would be the purview of a high charisma, the ability to get attention.
A 5 charisma doesnt make someone appear mentally inept. Just socially so. People may try to take advantage of someone with a 5 intelligence, but a 5 charisma does not an easy mark make. In fact I would imagine someone lacking social graces actually makes them a worse target, because they are far more likely to react poorly and make a scene.
I agree with this in that they wouldn't necessarily be seen as an easy target, but they would be treated differently. people who with that low of a chr score wold either be totally over-looked or be somehow socially shunned by others.
You know what I mean... those people you run into every once in a while who, while you try to get beyond your negative reactions, you just don't treat the same as everyone else. Either you avoid eye contact, don't know how to talk to them, are afraid to shake their hand, or whatever.
The point being, there are definite consequences. And while it's hugely unfortunate that people in real life get treated this way, in the context of a game where a player chose to give their character this shortcoming in exchange for benefits elsewhere, I think its' the duty of hte GM to play off those shortcomings.
Having a dirt-poor CHA can mean any number of things. It's usually suitable for characters that are ridiculously ugly or off-putting, or as Kolokotroni said, socially inept. So it's not always about how you interact with others, but also how others are willing to interact with you.
In this case, 5 Cha could be perfect for a introverted warrior with a heavily scarred face, or an Orc that can't speak a pidgin of common.
A 5 charisma doesnt make someone appear mentally inept. Just socially so. People may try to take advantage of someone with a 5 intelligence, but a 5 charisma does not an easy mark make. In fact I would imagine someone lacking social graces actually makes them a worse target, because they are far more likely to react poorly and make a scene.No, a 5 charisma may make someone appear meantally inept. Making a scene, especially an effective one, would be the purview of a high charisma, the ability to get attention.
By make a scene, i mean the 5 cha 16 int fighter might draw a sword and cut the counter in half when the shopkeep tries to cheat him, since he doesnt subscribe to the social graces that make that a no-no.
By make a scene, i mean the 5 cha 16 int fighter might draw a sword and cut the counter in half when the shopkeep tries to cheat him, since he doesnt subscribe to the social graces that make that a no-no.A 5 charisma doesnt make someone appear mentally inept. Just socially so. People may try to take advantage of someone with a 5 intelligence, but a 5 charisma does not an easy mark make. In fact I would imagine someone lacking social graces actually makes them a worse target, because they are far more likely to react poorly and make a scene.No, a 5 charisma may make someone appear meantally inept. Making a scene, especially an effective one, would be the purview of a high charisma, the ability to get attention.
LOL ahh "Street Justice" OK i see where you are coming from now. Sorry i misunderstood.
But, the wizard who "is busy" and can't craft your item. The barmaid who claims you grabbed her butt without her permission demanding restitiution from your fat bag of coins from the last adventure, cutting them down seems like a sure fire way to the gallows. Which is, in its own way, a measure of Role Playing penalizing a low Cha.
Now how to get the player of the low Cha to actually act socially inept? Which seems to be the issue this is all revolving around (along with the soft language used to describe the stat that creates disagreements, personally I'd rather replace it with either a comeleness or personality stat, which is limited to one of the two major components that people attribute to Cha)
I played an 8 Cha character who had a stutter that was my take on that negative.
I think Uchawi has a point about making a list of negative RP features for all the stats has a bit of merit. sometimes the race and stat help establish this (im thinking low str halflings here) other times its less obvious (an elf with an 8 CON but who has the desert runner trait from the APG, he's an avid walker/runner but is prone to getting sick even if other wise the cold dosent effect him much). At the same time I wish we had a solid list of positive modifer descriptors as well so that every strong attribute Good or bad helped shape the character for those who struggle with coming up with such things.
I think Uchawi has a point about making a list of negative RP features for all the stats has a bit of merit. sometimes the race and stat help establish this (im thinking low str halflings here) other times its less obvious (an elf with an 8 CON but who has the desert runner trait from the APG, he's an avid walker/runner but is prone to getting sick even if other wise the cold dosent effect him much)
I would agree with this, either establish a general list, or creat specific ones for each character. Not all low charisma characters will be low charisma for the same reasons. For instance, one character may be disfigured from birth, and thus be repulsive to most. Another may simple be obnoxious to an extreme. Another might be completely unwilling to speak publicly, and terrified of large groups of people. I think all of these can represent a lack of personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, or appearance.
Establish some kind of guideline for players to roleplay their low mental stat, and you will probably see results.
The way I see it, a CHA of 5 doesn't make one socially inept. A diplomacy bonus of -3 makes one socially inept.
Similarly, a 18 STR doesn't make one a good fighter. An attack bonus of +10 makes one a good fighter (given a proper level off course) but ultimately, it doesn't matter where the bonus comes from as long as the bonus is there in the end.
Same goes for Charisma. A low Charisma will be a social handicap but shouldn't be sole factor of social ineptitude. Ultimately, it is a deficiency that is possible to overcome, but I agree that it isn't likely to happen for those who dump CHA without further after-thoughts.
In other words, low CHA does not equal social ineptitude but rather no intrinsic talent at social aptitudes. "Semantics!" you'll say, but I think the difference is important enough to note.
'findel
That being said, I grow warmer and warmer at the idea of Negative [stat] Traits that are nothing but a guide to roleplay low stats (and perhaps too much of a sore for careless munchkins to tolerate).
'findel
The more I think about it the more I want to see charisma removed and replaced with personality/ personna/ manipulation leave physical appearance out of the equation entirely. Limits the digressions disagreements of what charisma is within the context of the game mechanics.
The more I think about it the more I want to see charisma removed and replaced with personality/ personna/ manipulation leave physical appearance out of the equation entirely. Limits the digressions disagreements of what charisma is within the context of the game mechanics.
I don't think Charisma has much to do with physical appearance, although good appearance COULD be one of the many explanation of a high Charisma score.
At any case, I don't think Jubilex and friends are the kings of good looks, but that doesn't prevent them from having sky-high Charisma scores...
The more I think about it the more I want to see charisma removed and replaced with personality/ personna/ manipulation leave physical appearance out of the equation entirely. Limits the digressions disagreements of what charisma is within the context of the game mechanics.
I don't think Charisma has much to do with physical appearance, although good appearance COULD be one of the many explanation of a high Charisma score.
At any case, I don't think Jubilex and friends are the kings of good looks, but that doesn't prevent them from having sky-high Charisma scores...
I agree with you but look at the posts about charisma even in this thread the trend in conversation is low charisma = ugly. which is silly when a bloody skeleton says raise its cha to 14 and demons, devils and quillipoths have high charisma scores.
Better to use a term that cannot be construed as having any thing to do with physical apperance.
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Here's an idea that doesn't really penalize players with low CHA but can open up opportunities for roleplay:
Like attracts like. A low CHA PC may find that he ends up hanging out with low CHA NPCs all the time! Perhaps they are less intimidated by the fact that he's more "down to earth" like them. Of course, Low CHA characters can be surly, or hideously ugly, or socially inept, or incredibly shy, or any number of things - but your PC can get a chance to meet them all over the course of the adventure - could make for some moments of humor - or even pathos!
Another thing you can do which helps keep the Surly Dwarf from hiding behind the Rather Dashing Bard during social interactions: when Rather Dashing is trying to use diplomacy or bluff to ease the party's way into or out of somewhere, you can always have the NPC guard or noble say "Hey - what about that suspicious looking guy at the back? What's your part in all this, bub?" Any guard worth his salt is going to hammer on the weakest link in the party chain if he thinks he's being lied to, which will give Surly the chance to either trip over his tongue and flub the encounter or else roll miraculously and bluff his way through.
The more I think about it the more I want to see charisma removed and replaced with personality/ personna/ manipulation leave physical appearance out of the equation entirely. Limits the digressions disagreements of what charisma is within the context of the game mechanics.
I don't think Charisma has much to do with physical appearance, although good appearance COULD be one of the many explanation of a high Charisma score.
At any case, I don't think Jubilex and friends are the kings of good looks, but that doesn't prevent them from having sky-high Charisma scores...
I agree with you but look at the posts about charisma even in this thread the trend in conversation is low charisma = ugly. which is silly when a bloody skeleton says raise its cha to 14 and demons, devils and quillipoths have high charisma scores.
Better to use a term that cannot be construed as having any thing to do with physical apperance.
Well it is a combination of things, probably more so then any other stat. The raw is: "Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance." where as for undead "Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.”"
I agree that it doesnt HAVE to mean appearance, but I do believe it can have something to do with it. I think that should be determined at creation of the character. You can be a beautiful dunce or ugly as sin.
Here's an idea that doesn't really penalize players with low CHA but can open up opportunities for roleplay:
Like attracts like. A low CHA PC may find that he ends up hanging out with low CHA NPCs all the time! Perhaps they are less intimidated by the fact that he's more "down to earth" like them. Of course, Low CHA characters can be surly, or hideously ugly, or socially inept, or incredibly shy, or any number of things - but your PC can get a chance to meet them all over the course of the adventure - could make for some moments of humor - or even pathos!
Another thing you can do which helps keep the Surly Dwarf from hiding behind the Rather Dashing Bard during social interactions: when Rather Dashing is trying to use diplomacy or bluff to ease the party's way into or out of somewhere, you can always have the NPC guard or noble say "Hey - what about that suspicious looking guy at the back? What's your part in all this, bub?" Any guard worth his salt is going to hammer on the weakest link in the party chain if he thinks he's being lied to, which will give Surly the chance to either trip over his tongue and flub the encounter or else roll miraculously and bluff his way through.
You just have to be careful not to do this too often, because it ruins the 'face' character's time in the spotlight. If a character puts resources in to social skills and is always foiled by the character that didnt, it isnt going to be a fun game for the face.
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You just have to be careful not to do this too often, because it ruins the 'face' character's time in the spotlight. If a character puts resources in to social skills and is always foiled by the character that didnt, it isnt going to be a fun game for the face.
Of course! If you did it every time, Rather Dashing would get Rather Frustrated. You just need to apply the Rule of Roger Rabbit to this one: he can only do it when it's funny. :)
Well it is a combination of things, probably more so then any other stat. The raw is: "Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance." where as for undead "Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.”"
I agree that it doesnt HAVE to mean appearance, but I do believe it can have something to do with it. I think that should be determined at creation of the character. You can be a beautiful dunce or ugly as sin.
And thats why it would be removed in the Dragonsong Pathfinder Version 2.0 because none of the others are combinations of things according to pathfinder logic. As i said earlier soft ill defined language creates more divison about what this stat is and does more than any other.
To parapharase an education professor i had: If i ask a question and way more than 50% of the people can't agree on what the question is asking then its a poorly phrased question.
I don't use this to get the role playing. They do that on their own. But u can't expect a player with a 5 cha (yes a 5, not a +5, 5 is his actual ability score) to walk into every place and get what he needs and not piss people off all the time.
Good thing that is what skill rolls are for.
If I ran a low charisma character in most of your games, I would run a complete jerk-ess - not because I have low Charisma, but because how most of the "roll-players" insist on treating a character with low charisma out of spite. Oh, the innkeeper tells me to stay in the stable because I have low charisma? I threaten him with my sword and start breaking stuff. I get accused of a crime just because I walk around town with low charisma? I start committing crimes - I'll be damned if I'm going to jail just for DM fiat.
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Chapter Two of Council of Thieves has rules for Cha modifiers due to nice clothes. There's a whole banquet with the Lord Mayor event where noble house patriarchs, generals, and other VIPs show up, and high Cha characters are penalized if they don't wear appropriate clothing. Similarly, a low Cha character, if he shuts the hell up and just nods, can "pass" as the strong silent type if properly pimped up with nice clothes and bling.... remember the circumstances in all Cha-based interactions!
I don't use this to get the role playing. They do that on their own. But u can't expect a player with a 5 cha (yes a 5, not a +5, 5 is his actual ability score) to walk into every place and get what he needs and not piss people off all the time.Good thing that is what skill rolls are for.
If I ran a low charisma character in most of your games, I would run a complete jerk-ess - not because I have low Charisma, but because how most of the "roll-players" insist on treating a character with low charisma out of spite. Oh, the innkeeper tells me to stay in the stable because I have low charisma? I threaten him with my sword and start breaking stuff. I get accused of a crime just because I walk around town with low charisma? I start committing crimes - I'll be damned if I'm going to jail just for DM fiat.
I have no idea of what kind of GMs you've had to deal with, but the way you make it sound, the GM has to metagame in order to screw over the low-Cha PCs. If said character couldn't keep his mouth shut or acted like a total d-bag in public, then that's grounds for attracting unwanted attention.
I don't know about that innkeeper bull, either. Unless your character is a HUGE HUGE jerkwad, I really don't get how he would discern that your character is one when all he's saying is "How much for a room?" Unless of course, he happened to be stupid ugly.
This character being played on these boards has a 7 in cha. He almost always talks in elvish (which unknown at the time he was made is completely understood by every member of the party) he also never asks direct questions unless he is using war manners. He is covered in black tribal tattoos.
But he isn't some kind of social moron in fact he believes nonelves are very rude for asking direct questions. Though he doesn't begrudge them their rudeness it is just a side effect of their shorter lifespan. (In fact it would be better to say he pities them slightly they die before ever learning how to live.)
I don't use this to get the role playing. They do that on their own. But u can't expect a player with a 5 cha (yes a 5, not a +5, 5 is his actual ability score) to walk into every place and get what he needs and not piss people off all the time.Good thing that is what skill rolls are for.
If I ran a low charisma character in most of your games, I would run a complete jerk-ess - not because I have low Charisma, but because how most of the "roll-players" insist on treating a character with low charisma out of spite. Oh, the innkeeper tells me to stay in the stable because I have low charisma? I threaten him with my sword and start breaking stuff. I get accused of a crime just because I walk around town with low charisma? I start committing crimes - I'll be damned if I'm going to jail just for DM fiat.
I have no idea of what kind of GMs you've had to deal with, but the way you make it sound, the GM has to metagame in order to screw over the low-Cha PCs. If said character couldn't keep his mouth shut or acted like a total d-bag in public, then that's grounds for attracting unwanted attention.
I don't know about that innkeeper bull, either. Unless your character is a HUGE HUGE jerkwad, I really don't get how he would discern that your character is one when all he's saying is "How much for a room?" Unless of course, he happened to be stupid ugly.
I think I meant to write "these" and not "your." I was basically directly working off Pendagast's "examples." And looking around at the "fixes" to the "problem" of dumped Charisma, I can say it would apply to many a game where hardcore roleplayers are making the rules.
All of this talk reminds me of Gruthel. Gurthel was a half-orc thief (2nd Ed) with a Wisdom of about 7 and a Charisma of 2.
His player had a ball making incredibly poor decisions with him, and acting like a wild animal with no sense of how to behave in public. Gruthel got into so much trouble that when he was petrified by a cockatrice, we left him that way, buried in the dirt. The player did not blame us. In fact, he had a hand in the decision.
I won't say Gruthel did not serve as a distraction and that he was not irritating. But he certainly was played well, based on his stats. And his scenes were always memorable because of it.
Though I don't believe the GM should penalize a player with low Charisma score character, I do believe one of the methods to get the player to better roleplay such a character is by using NPCs to interact with that character appropriately.
It's shortsighted of a player to think he can just zero out that stat and feel no effect of it in-game. It's also a gigantically wasted opportunity for some real interaction.
All of the other stats have mechanical benefits, using the rules as written.
Charisma has only RP ones, and even then, only if rigidly enforced at the expense of established mechanics (e.g., a Cha 7 rogue with 10 ranks in Diplomacy has a +11 modifier. A Cha 16 fighter with 1 rank has a +4 modifier. Yet people are earnestly advocating that this should be hand-waved away so that the fighter is better at it.)
The way to fix mechanical problems is by fixing the problematic mechanics. Slapping RP "patches" on them leads to dissatisfaction or outright contradictions (as above). How many threads endlessly arguing about paladins' codes have there been, as another example?
If you want Charisma to be a "real" stat, give it some "real" stuff to govern. In my houserules, for example, Will saves use your Cha modifier, and ranged attacks have been moved to Wis.
my Tian inquisitor of Zon-Kuthon with weekly william has an 8 charisma. she is silent, cold, creepy, and outright scary. at level 7, she has around a +17 intimidate. and now she got to finally make up for the gear that she was lacking and the party melee are now overgeared.
here is what the party martials all have at 7th level.
+3 magic armor
ring of protection +2
and each of the 4 martials have thier own extra item
the dwarven fighters dwarven waraxe is +2 abberration bane flaming burst ghost touch adamantine
the 1/2 elf switch hitter ranger has both +1 magical abberation bane bow and a matching elven curve blade with the same enhancements
the dwarven duskblade has the fighter's hand me down +2 abberration bane adamantine dwarven waraxe and a ring of sustenance
my tian inquisitor has a belt of physical perfection +2. and a+1 abberration bane cold iron 3.5 edition version spiked chain.
we have a party of 8.
So as I read the other thread, myself as well as a lot of other people were thinking the thread was gonna be about role playing, but it wasn't so. So I thought id open up this thread to talk about how to get to them through the role playing aspect of the game. I'm really interested in this one since I have a dwarf fighter with a cha of 5 in my group.
He's not naturally impressive and assertive (although he can deliberately cultivate social skills to get past his inborn tendencies, of course). People probably will not pay more attention than they must to him, unless he actively does something to draw it. People will be somewhat less inclined to do the usual minor favors, meant to keep them on the hero's good side, for him. People will be less inclined to forgive him for assholish behavior or stupidity, if he engages in such. Well, that's about all, I think.
Also, Kirth Gersen's observation two posts above is, generally, correct.
A low charisma doesn't have to be intentionally rude and crude. The character could be blissfully unaware that everything they say makes people cringe and often tries to segue the topic into one of their own interest that nobody else wants to talk about and frankly finds quite disturbing at times.
WHY, IN THE NAME OF THE UPPER PLANES couldn't I roleplay a PC whit low Cha?
Examples:
- A PC always silent, speaking rarely (but significantly if Int or Wis are 12+)
- An unpolite PC, very fun at the table but uneasy for NPC
- A PC trying to be pleasant, but which ends saying or doing something very wrong, generally to the wrong person.
Barring that one could end at high level with a - 3 in Cha but 20 ranks in each social skill...
A low charisma doesn't have to be intentionally rude and crude. The character could be blissfully unaware that everything they say makes people cringe and often tries to segue the topic into one of their own interest that nobody else wants to talk about and frankly finds quite disturbing at times.
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So you have never seen instances in real life where a person with a speech impediment, or who are wall flowers, agoraphobics, etc. were taken advantage of by other folks who realized that this person either cant or wont communicate effectively to cause a problem for me if I rip them off?
No, I have seen instances in real life where people try to take advantage of a known career killer, who also might be the main reason their town isn't overrun by monsters yet and/or pack more power than the entire local law enforcement system.
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Is the title of the thread "How to get them through roleplaying" or "how to get them roleplaying"?
If you are GM and you are out to get your players you've got the wrong idea.
If one of your players had taken a CHR of 5 and you want to punish them for it, then you shouldn't have allowed it in the first place.
If I had a player who wanted to roll with a character that had a low CHR score, then I'd want a could reason built into his character concept.
Look at the skills that CHR relies on, a character that is simply ugly shouldn't take penalties on bluff and intimidate. In terms of personality traits, you should be able to come up with something that doesn't ruin the fun for everyone around the table.
Some ideas are:
An half-elf / half-roc orphan and doesn't fit in with either race and is riddled with insecurities.
A character with a mild form of asbergers who takes everything literally.
A drug addict with wild mood swings
A fatalist whose demise for foretold in prophecy
A rich noble who has fallen on hard times and looks down on everyone and treats the other characters as servants.
A secretive escaped slave who trusts no one.
Building the low score into the character gives the players something to do, rather than you having to do something to the player.
another idea for a Low CHA PC
a tian who spent thier whole childhood at a monastery of irori. having little personal interaction and forced to stick with thier Ascetic Cloistered lifestyle. stuck with a life of practice and prayer. since they had no time to practice specific social skills, they are quiet and when they do speak, it doesn't have the best of filters and may be offensive. maybe they live on a schedule similar to thier former ascetic life.
A low charisma doesn't have to be intentionally rude and crude. The character could be blissfully unaware that everything they say makes people cringe and often tries to segue the topic into one of their own interest that nobody else wants to talk about and frankly finds quite disturbing at times.++
And it's repeatedly relevant in this very thread!
This is an interesting thread. Something like this actually came up recently in game concerning my character. He's an ogrekin dwarf with a charisma of 8. Now the fact that he is hidiously deformed (hunchback, an over-large lumpy head, disgusting boils, etc) makes things difficult for him, role-playing wise; few business want anything to do with him, a gods forbid he show up to a posh social event (he wouldn't be invited, but as a high level thief, he likes to crash these gatherings).
The issue we've been trying to deal with is balancing his inherent low charisma with his absurdly high social skills; Hulgrym Half-dwarven is, despite his ogre blood, excellent in the social area (high ranks in bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, and intimidate).
I guess my question would be, how do you balance characters who have a low charisma, but lots of ranks in the social skills? I can understand wanting the player character to feel the concequences for "dumping" his charisma, but where do skills come into play? If a character has high ranks in diplomacy but only a 5 in charisma, how does it play out?
P.S. I didn't actually dump my charisma intentionally. We roll for our stats and the charisma score was originally 12 before the ogrekin and dwarven penalties came into play.
Nuke them from orbit... it's the only way to make sure.