Bigger than Colossal?


Rules Questions


So I am working on a large boss fight for the end of a campaign I would like to run, but I want to make the PCs fight an impossibly large Tarrasque-esque creature that should be around 150 fit long. I know:

Large = 2x2
Huge = 3x3
Gargantuan = 4x4
Colossal = 5x5

So I was wondering, could one just extend out Colossal to be 6x6 and beyond or is Colossal as big as it gets?


Odraude wrote:

So I am working on a large boss fight for the end of a campaign I would like to run, but I want to make the PCs fight an impossibly large Tarrasque-esque creature that should be around 150 fit long. I know:

Large = 2x2
Huge = 3x3
Gargantuan = 4x4
Colossal = 5x5

So I was wondering, could one just extend out Colossal to be 6x6 and beyond or is Colossal as big as it gets?

Presumably you can, after all, that's how you get large buildings.

Dark Archive

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Colossal is already 6x6. 1 inch = 5 feet, and Colossal is minimum 30 feet on a side, or 6 inches.

There is a system in The Immortals Handbook Bestiary, a 3rd party Epic monsters sourcebook, to go beyond Colossal to first a size category called Titanic, and then Macro- categories (Macro-Fine, Macro-Diminutive, etc.), but it's a 3.5 book so it would require quite a bit of conversion to use under Pathfinder.


Kvantum wrote:

Colossal is already 6x6. 1 inch = 5 feet, and Colossal is minimum 30 feet on a side, or 6 inches.

There is a system in The Immortals Handbook Bestiary, a 3rd party Epic monsters sourcebook, to go beyond Colossal to first a size category called Titanic, and then Macro- categories (Macro-Fine, Macro-Diminutive, etc.), but it's a 3.5 book so it would require quite a bit of conversion to use under Pathfinder.

Wait, so did I skip a size category?

And where in the core rules can I find a listing of the size categories?


The following is from a table in the combat section of the PRD (and the core rulebook)
Creature Size / space / Natural Reach
Fine / 1/2 ft. / 0
Diminutive / 1 ft. / 0
Tiny / 2-1/2 ft. / 0
Small / 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Medium / 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Large (tall) / 10 ft. / 10 ft.
Large (long) / 10 ft. / 5 ft.
Huge (tall) / 15 ft. / 15 ft.
Huge (long) / 15 ft. / 10 ft.
Gargantuan (tall) / 20 ft. / 20 ft.
Gargantuan (long) / 20 ft. / 15 ft.
Colossal (tall) / 30 ft. / 30 ft.
Colossal (long) / 30 ft. / 20 ft.

as can be seen there is mo size category that has a 25 ft. (5 square) space


Odraude wrote:
Kvantum wrote:

Colossal is already 6x6. 1 inch = 5 feet, and Colossal is minimum 30 feet on a side, or 6 inches.

There is a system in The Immortals Handbook Bestiary, a 3rd party Epic monsters sourcebook, to go beyond Colossal to first a size category called Titanic, and then Macro- categories (Macro-Fine, Macro-Diminutive, etc.), but it's a 3.5 book so it would require quite a bit of conversion to use under Pathfinder.

Wait, so did I skip a size category?

And where in the core rules can I find a listing of the size categories?

PFGCR p.195 table 8-4

and no you did not miss a size there is no 25ft space (5X5)


I see that makes sense.

So I guess I could just make the creature bigger with Titanic by following the size trends

Sovereign Court

Kvantum wrote:

Colossal is already 6x6. 1 inch = 5 feet, and Colossal is minimum 30 feet on a side, or 6 inches.

There is a system in The Immortals Handbook Bestiary, a 3rd party Epic monsters sourcebook, to go beyond Colossal to first a size category called Titanic, and then Macro- categories (Macro-Fine, Macro-Diminutive, etc.), but it's a 3.5 book so it would require quite a bit of conversion to use under Pathfinder.

Yeah, that book is excellent for going into insanely large creatures.

One thing that is good about the rules is that he's very systematic with the stats and constructs them with very detailed intentions about the underlying math, so you might need to do some conversion work, but he gives you a lot of tools to do a solid job with it.

The system lays out a scaling that has mathematical regularity. If you wanted to have the players fight something the size of a planet it would be in the mega scale (mega-fine, mega-diminutive...), or if you wanted to go whole hog, you could have them fight something the size of the universe at the Xona scale :)

What I'd do is use the system so that everyone grows to some abnoxiously large size and you have to fight him at that super scale, like being in a godzilla movie. If you wanted everyone to be around the height of the Empire State Building then macro-diminutive to macro-tiny would work.

There are other systems in the book, like virtual size categories to sort out what happens if someone of a particular size ends up with really large strength values.

Lots of good stuff!


Nice I'll have to get it sometime. Though I may not be into some of the names (Macro prefixes kinda kill it for me) but I can change the name . Like

Titanic 40x40
Massive 50x50
Immense ?
Tremendous ?
Monumental ?
Leviathan ?
Epic ?
Vast ?

Not sure how to continue that scaling heh


Do you need specific size categories for bigger creatures? Why not just make them as big as you want them to be, with proportional reach depending on whether they are 'tall' or 'long' ?


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Do you need specific size categories for bigger creatures? Why not just make them as big as you want them to be, with proportional reach depending on whether they are 'tall' or 'long' ?

Im mostly just trying to find a good scaling, I guess in case the guy gets bigger (or smaller).


honestly, if I create something, larger then a standard colossal sized creature I just list its size as colossal+ and give what ever space/reach I think is appropriate for a creature of its size.

Scarab Sages

If you try to stat out a creature of greater than colossal size, then the square-cube law, which has been weeping quietly in the corner for years, will finally suffer a psychotic break, and it will go crazy with an impossibly large axe, killing off the other poor abused laws of physics in order to spare them the miserable effrontery of continued existence, and the entire game universe will implode.


Wolfsnap wrote:
If you try to stat out a creature of greater than colossal size, then the square-cube law, which has been weeping quietly in the corner for years, will finally suffer a psychotic break, and it will go crazy with an impossibly large axe, killing off the other poor abused laws of physics in order to spare them the miserable effrontery of continued existence, and the entire game universe will implode.

+1 sir, +1.

Though for my two coppers, for creatures larger than the standard Colossal, as per previous tradition, call it "Colossal+" and specifically list the size. Paizo appears to be dropping the "+" nomenclature.
Example:
AP#27: Council of Thieves: What Lies in Dust has the Aspidochelone, a CR 17 N Colossal magical beast(aquatic) with a listed Space of "150 ft.".


I'm certain that in a universe where flying reptiles breathe fire, birds fire lightning from their wings, monks can walk over air, and humans can become godlike, the square-cube law is the least of my worries


I think that the size categories group creatures relative to their size as perceived from each other's viewpoint. As such, I try to find a geometric pattern.

Creature's space:
- Fine: 1/2 ft. edge => 1/4 square foot
- Diminutive: 1 ft. edge => 1 sq.ft. (Fine x 4)
- Tiny: 2 ft. => 4 sq.ft. (Diminutive x 4)
- Small: 5 ft. => 25 sq.ft. (Tiny x 6)
- Medium: 5 ft. => same as Small
- Large: 10 ft. => 100 sq.ft. (Small/Medium x 4)
- Huge: 15 ft. => ~200 sq.ft. (Large x 2)
- Gargantuan: 20 ft. => 400 sq.ft. (Huge x 2)
- Colossal: 30 ft. => ~800 sq.ft. (Gargantuan x 2)

Following the "previous area x 2 (rounded)", I would then offer the following guesses as to the next size categories:
- Colossal+1: 40 ft. => 1600 sq.ft.
- Colossal+2: 60 ft. => 3600 sq.ft.
- Colossal+3: 90 ft. => 8100 sq.ft. (a large plane)
- Colossal+4: 130 ft. => 16900 sq.ft.
- Colossal+5: 180 ft. => 32400 sq.ft.
- ...
- Colossan+8: 500 ft. => larger than the Titanic
- ...
- Colossan+10: 1000 ft. => roughly as tall as the Empire State Building
- ...
- Colossal +40: 34 000 000 ft. => roughly the volume of the Earth


I remember an article in Polyhedron before that magazine went defunct that used a different scale for ship to ship combat such as Spelljammers (this was a d20 Spelljammer article). I think human scale Colossal was ship scale Huge or something like that.

That would allow you to have big big monsters that dwarf humans and even stuff like sky ships.

Really really big stuff like monsters that dwarf cities end up being plot devices in my opinion and should be defeated in a manner akin to destroying the death star (finding and exploiting a weakness) as their composition makes human scale attacks insignificant in nature.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
vuron wrote:
I remember an article in Polyhedron...

that (excellent) article had a size category larger than "colossal." it was "awesome." :-)


Odraude wrote:

Nice I'll have to get it sometime. Though I may not be into some of the names (Macro prefixes kinda kill it for me) but I can change the name . Like

Titanic 40x40
Massive 50x50
Immense ?
Tremendous ?
Monumental ?
Leviathan ?
Epic ?
Vast ?

Not sure how to continue that scaling heh

Which Upper Krust himself mentioned. The reason he did titanic and then added a prefix to denote how much larger they were was because of the stress on the thesaurus to come up with ever larger adjectives. Instead, with the addition of Titanic, you have 10 age categories, and prefixes to cover every successively larger one.


Daviot wrote:

Though for my two coppers, for creatures larger than the standard Colossal, as per previous tradition, call it "Colossal+" and specifically list the size. Paizo appears to be dropping the "+" nomenclature.

The "Colossal+" size category was, for instance, used in the 3.5 Draconomicon. That would be the most "official" larger-than-Colossal size category, since it was in a WotC sourcebook rather than 3PP.

Paizo may not even be allowed to use "Colossal+", since it probably wouldn't be part of the OGL.


Are wrote:
Daviot wrote:

Though for my two coppers, for creatures larger than the standard Colossal, as per previous tradition, call it "Colossal+" and specifically list the size. Paizo appears to be dropping the "+" nomenclature.

The "Colossal+" size category was, for instance, used in the 3.5 Draconomicon. That would be the most "official" larger-than-Colossal size category, since it was in a WotC sourcebook rather than 3PP.

Paizo may not even be allowed to use "Colossal+", since it probably wouldn't be part of the OGL.

I doubt that. Look up 'force dragon' in the SRD.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
I doubt that. Look up 'force dragon' in the SRD.

I always forget that the epic rules are OGL :)


Kvantum wrote:


There is a system in The Immortals Handbook Bestiary, a 3rd party Epic monsters sourcebook, to go beyond Colossal to first a size category called Titanic, and then Macro- categories (Macro-Fine, Macro-Diminutive, etc.), but it's a 3.5 book so it would require quite a bit of conversion to use under Pathfinder.

Yeah...the book isn't fantastic, but the size tables are interesting. Basically it goes all the way up to Planet Sized monsters!


Kain Darkwind wrote:
Are wrote:
Daviot wrote:

Though for my two coppers, for creatures larger than the standard Colossal, as per previous tradition, call it "Colossal+" and specifically list the size. Paizo appears to be dropping the "+" nomenclature.

The "Colossal+" size category was, for instance, used in the 3.5 Draconomicon. That would be the most "official" larger-than-Colossal size category, since it was in a WotC sourcebook rather than 3PP.

Paizo may not even be allowed to use "Colossal+", since it probably wouldn't be part of the OGL.

I doubt that. Look up 'force dragon' in the SRD.

Colossal+ doesn't get any bigger, or get better reach than Colossal, it just gets increased damage dice on attacks (and a bigger breath weapon for dragons). If I'm reading it right, it is only slightly different from adding a Virtual Size category, as from Immortals Handbook Bestiary.


My favorite is Humongous which means very VERY big!


So why can a Colossal or Colossal+ creature still only take a 5' step? If I needed to use creatures that large, I'd probably say that a creature can take a free step equal to 5' +/- 5' per 5 categories larger or smaller. So a Titanic creature could take a free 10' step, and a mega-medium could take a 15' step, etc. Not that it's going to come up...


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Bobson wrote:
So why can a Colossal or Colossal+ creature still only take a 5' step? If I needed to use creatures that large, I'd probably say that a creature can take a free step equal to 5' +/- 5' per 5 categories larger or smaller. So a Titanic creature could take a free 10' step, and a mega-medium could take a 15' step, etc. Not that it's going to come up...

wow, great question. i can't believe this never occurred to me.

Grand Lodge

Hmmm, maybe because Skip Williams, despite being the best mechanics designer we've known, isn't perfect after all.
.
.

I've let Huge and larger creatures do more than a 5' step since the beginning -- that is, in the really important BBEG fights when I actually use a battle mat.

. . . . I've also used "bigger-than-Colossal" creatures for a while, but all I did really was adjust their Size mod for AC. Never got a miniature.

I like the "Titanic" size name -- but I'd still like something to fit between Gargantuan and Colossal (which would actually mean that would be "Colossal" while "Colossal would be bigger -- and "Titanic" bigger yet).


Louis IX wrote:

I think that the size categories group creatures relative to their size as perceived from each other's viewpoint. As such, I try to find a geometric pattern.

Creature's space:
- Fine: 1/2 ft. edge => 1/4 square foot
- Diminutive: 1 ft. edge => 1 sq.ft. (Fine x 4)
- Tiny: 2 ft. => 4 sq.ft. (Diminutive x 4)
- Small: 5 ft. => 25 sq.ft. (Tiny x 6)
- Medium: 5 ft. => same as Small
- Large: 10 ft. => 100 sq.ft. (Small/Medium x 4)
- Huge: 15 ft. => ~200 sq.ft. (Large x 2)
- Gargantuan: 20 ft. => 400 sq.ft. (Huge x 2)
- Colossal: 30 ft. => ~800 sq.ft. (Gargantuan x 2)

Following the "previous area x 2 (rounded)", I would then offer the following guesses as to the next size categories:
- Colossal+1: 40 ft. => 1600 sq.ft.
- Colossal+2: 60 ft. => 3600 sq.ft.
- Colossal+3: 90 ft. => 8100 sq.ft. (a large plane)
- Colossal+4: 130 ft. => 16900 sq.ft.
- Colossal+5: 180 ft. => 32400 sq.ft.
- ...
- Colossan+8: 500 ft. => larger than the Titanic
- ...
- Colossan+10: 1000 ft. => roughly as tall as the Empire State Building
- ...
- Colossal +40: 34 000 000 ft. => roughly the volume of the Earth

I like this scale. Working pretty good I think.

Thank you all for the responses!

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

messy wrote:
Bobson wrote:
So why can a Colossal or Colossal+ creature still only take a 5' step? If I needed to use creatures that large, I'd probably say that a creature can take a free step equal to 5' +/- 5' per 5 categories larger or smaller. So a Titanic creature could take a free 10' step, and a mega-medium could take a 15' step, etc. Not that it's going to come up...
wow, great question. i can't believe this never occurred to me.

Because it's not a factor of size. It's a factor of whether the creature moving has moved far enough to allow something next to it to react.

Regardless of how big a creature is, a 5 foot step at the tactical scale is a small shift, and a 20 foot move across the battlefield is not a small shift and gives opponents time to react.

Besides, there's lots of things that fix this. Casters don't care much, because casting is a standard action, and for other classes there's the Vital Strike tree and similar things.


gbonehead wrote:

Because it's not a factor of size. It's a factor of whether the creature moving has moved far enough to allow something next to it to react.

Regardless of how big a creature is, a 5 foot step at the tactical scale is a small shift, and a 20 foot move across the battlefield is not a small shift and gives opponents time to react.

But keep leverage in mind. If I am on stilts and my foot moves 5', do the stilts move 5'. No, they move along a larger arc. Same for the tip of a 3' sword vs a 5' sword. Same effort, but the speed of the tip of the 5' blade moves much faster. This scales the larger you are. I would totally give colossal creatures a larger range of free movement based on size. The only time this doesn't matter is when the larger creature is just slower to move it's limbs. That works in some cases but not all, and that should be reflected by the dex score.


there are actually two separate questions here in my mind.

1. Should a creature of that scale be able to move more than 5 feet and still take a full attack or other full round action?

2. Should a creature that large be able to move more than 5 feet with out provoking an attack of opportunity.

As far as the first question goes, I could see arguments for allowing such a creature to take a larger than 5 foot step and still getting off a full attack for instance, because in relation to its body size it still moved much less than a smaller creature taking a 5 foot step might have (although I would not do so in my games, I think the 5 foot step rules are more about game balance than realism)

looking at the second question the answer is simply no, being larger in and of itself, does not allow you to avoid movement AoO, so there is no reason to think they could take more than a 5 foot adjustment with out provoking.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Odraude wrote:

Nice I'll have to get it sometime. Though I may not be into some of the names (Macro prefixes kinda kill it for me) but I can change the name . Like

Titanic 40x40
Massive 50x50
Immense ?
Tremendous ?
Monumental ?
Leviathan ?
Epic ?
Vast ?

Not sure how to continue that scaling heh

...Epic

Vast
Has Its Own Gravity
Has Its Own Moon
Has Several Moons
Has Several Planets
Holds Several Suns In Relative Fixed Distance Within Each Others
Bends Light Towards Itself
Shouldn't Have Gotten This Big, 'Cause Nothing Can Exist Any Longer Outside Its Own Boundary

Scarab Sages

One addition to the scale:

Child Actor.


Odraude wrote:

So I am working on a large boss fight for the end of a campaign I would like to run, but I want to make the PCs fight an impossibly large Tarrasque-esque creature that should be around 150 fit long. I know:

Large = 2x2
Huge = 3x3
Gargantuan = 4x4
Colossal = 5x5

So I was wondering, could one just extend out Colossal to be 6x6 and beyond or is Colossal as big as it gets?

Dragonstar in 3.0 extended colossal out 4 more size classes (e.g colossal 2, colossal 3...)and each was double the size of the last. But this was to make starships. A 3.5 open source game called Mechamophosis (D20 Transformers w/o the licence) had Immense for makeing aircraft carriers. It sounds like you are makeing a 1/2 size Godzilla (300ft tall/long 186,000 tons) but creatures of this size are best used as a plot device and not stated (i.e have to be defeated through plot not combat).

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