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[redacted], [redacted], and especially [redacted].
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That's what she said!!
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Chromantic: where you are missing the point is that math, whether or not you intentionally want it to, teaches you how to live and exist in a modern environment utilizing logic that will assist you forever.
You suggest people get on fine without math. I suggest look at their mortality rates from disease, limited technological progress, and financial and political minimization on the world stage (outside, perhaps, as a political tool for others). This is not because those poeple are stupid or somehow lesser. It is because of their lack of a full-bodied education, a deep and fundamentally important part of that is higher math.
And he problem is they use the concepts anyway, but not to their full potential - this actively hampers them from gaining much of what they don't have. And again: this has nothing to do with the skill, talent, intelligence, or worthiness of any given group. It has everything to do with how powerful and important math is to the community at large.
And you may suggest, "well that's what specialists are for; Indodnt need that nonsense, I'm not a specialist" except, of course, that's exactly how oligarchy is created - "specialists" are widely accepted at their word by non-specialists (because who are they to know the "secret knowledge" of a specialist) and this allows the specialists to get away with all sorts of shady things - intentionally or not. This is a thing that has happens them unlit history and still happens today, even in well-developed countries, because of how many peoples' educations are not broad enough to challenge based on their lack of knowledge. Or we leave specialist knowledge to the specialists and ignore them (to our detriment) because we "feel" like that "can't be right" - something that has caused the downfall of many and/or held back progress for decades or longer.
"You would have a ship sail against the winds and waves by lighting a bonfire under her deck?! I have no time for such nonsense." - Napoleon
He knew exactly what he felt he needed to know, and didn't take the time to learn what his specialists were telling him.
As to FHDM's proclivities, indeed, it is partially jovial (as is our return), however, he does hold a large amount of (sometimes irrational) hatred in sincerity for a large number of things. Hence, it is nice to give dissenting views, even in a jovial mein (unless you're suggesting that those who disagree simply quiet down - hardly a method of promoting general discussion, or permissive of differing viewpoints).
Generally, I highly like and respect the man, from what I've interacted with him. I do not share his hatreds, however, and, even jokingly, leaving nothing but hatred on a topic that Infeel passionately about is poor form on my part. He has every right to feel the way he does; he is wrong, of course, and to some extent knows it (as that's part of the joke), but that's within his rights.
That's the thing, though: tone can certainly be hard to parse over textual communication, even more so in forums, but the purpose of clarification, reputation of his suggestion that math is bad (which is overstated for the purpose of humor) is meant in a friendly manner, because he is a friend. But because not everyone is, and this is a public place, in the face of open and repeated statements of rejection, honesty must also be pursued, if, for k other reason, the ability to balance the scale, publicly.
That, and, when I was young I was under the very mistaken Impression that math wasn't cool, and liking it made you a (prejorativd) nerd. I didn't even care a it being cool or popular or whatever, but I avoided it due to sheer social stigma. This is stupid. Also, it's harmful. I was good at math. I could have been better, but was too busy trying not to look like a dork (even though Indod anyway).
"Math sucks, you should hate and fear it." is a valid thing for FHDM to say, because he was taught poorly by someone who didn't understand how it affected him. But, hanging lived a portion of my life in denial of who I really am due to needless social stigma of the same, I'm not going to permit such statments to go unchallenged, especially when they're false. As a math tutor, who has seen adults in fields such as child protection services and law and education and martial arts need help in learning proper math procedures (and in danger of losing careers to such), I am also not going to permit such nonsense to go unchallenged. Because it's false. And, if allowed to its logical conclusion, harms our entire society.
Now, it is unlikely that one man - even with all the black manliness possessed by him - saying that he hates math will harm society as a whole. But if he is permitted to speak on his passions, we must be as well.
Hence. :D
Meh, bring on the bikes. Worth it. XD
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(
So we were forced to switch insurance courtesy of my husband's job back to the bane of my freaking existence. Damn Cigna! *shakes fist* New policy started Oct 1. Had to take kidlet to urgent care today because of asthma problems. Need prescriptions to treat said asthma problems. Insurance is not letting me get prescriptions for my child to treat his asthma. I have never more wished that I could force choke someone over the phone than I do today. (I find your lack of coverage...disturbing. Cause Sith know the importance of proper treatment for respiratory problems. Obviously.) Grr.
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Sometimes I love Impus Major.
OK. I always love Impus Major.
On learning that when I was in elementary school, teachers would pin important notes to our chests so we couldn't possibly forget them as we walked home:
"Oh my goodness! Why did they stop doing that?!?! I need that! Students today are such wusses!"
(I had facetiously texted his choir teacher that we start communicating via notes pinned to Impus Major's chest. He loves the idea.)
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Math is a fundamental set of tools from which you can take principles that apply to every discipline in life.This is not true.
You do not need maths to write unless you're concerned with iambic pentameter and other rhythm things to do with poetry, in which case you need to be able to count to 10ish, you do not need maths to read, you do not need maths to interact with other people.
Maths is useful but you're overstating it.
It is that useful - you're misreading what I wrote.
I did not say the formula or specific numeric interaction - the principles and logic thought processes actually do apply to every discipline in life.
Also, it's something that, to some extent or another, will be used in literally everything you do, even if it's really simple versions of the stuff.
Basic addition and subtraction are I sense not the useless information that people are forced to fill their brain with because of dogmatic curriculums to which freehold is referring to. Outside of that basic levels of maths which people should be familiar with by the age of ten, you really don't need much maths at all. And as I have shown, in some areas you don't need it at all.To a point, yes, that is where he takes umbrage.
The problem, however, is that "math" is a massive field of huge elements, and saying, "math bad" is entirely ignoring pretty much everything.
(Also a fundamental property of human thought, given numbers are necessary to run even extremely basic elements of living.)
...EDIT: what freehold said about reading is also true, reading is far more valuable in my opinion that most subjects taught at schools.
I am close friends with a girl doing a masters degree in mechanical engineering at Cambridge, she was not a huge maths nerd as a kid, she was in fact a massive book worm, she is extremely
stuff and nonsense.
Good things exist in the world without math. Mathies stubborn instance that all that is good exists only because of math is one of the biggest problems i have with math in general. It is possible to learn things without math. It is possible to be disciplined and ordered and intelligent and educated without shouting equations every few seconds. Mathies need to stop shoving math into non math related things and then going "SEE?!? MATH!!!!" But that's just me.
Also the bodybuilder is damn wrong. We lift weights every day, properly and improperly. This is a bad analogy. If you didn't lift weights, you would be quite dead.
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Chromantic: where you are missing the point is that math, whether or not you intentionally want it to, teaches you how to live and exist in a modern environment utilizing logic that will assist you forever.
You suggest people get on fine without math. I suggest look at their mortality rates from disease, limited technological progress, and financial and political minimization on the world stage (outside, perhaps, as a political tool for others). This is not because those poeple are stupid or somehow lesser. It is because of their lack of a full-bodied education, a deep and fundamentally important part of that is higher math.
And he problem is they use the concepts anyway, but not to their full potential - this actively hampers them from gaining much of what they don't have. And again: this has nothing to do with the skill, talent, intelligence, or worthiness of any given group. It has everything to do with how powerful and important math is to the community at large.
And you may suggest, "well that's what specialists are for; Indodnt need that nonsense, I'm not a specialist" except, of course, that's exactly how oligarchy is created - "specialists" are widely accepted at their word by non-specialists (because who are they to know the "secret knowledge" of a specialist) and this allows the specialists to get away with all sorts of shady things - intentionally or not. This is a thing that has happens them unlit history and still happens today, even in well-developed countries, because of how many peoples' educations are not broad enough to challenge based on their lack of knowledge. Or we leave specialist knowledge to the specialists and ignore them (to our detriment) because we "feel" like that "can't be right" - something that has caused the downfall of many and/or held back progress for decades or longer.
"You would have a ship sail against the winds and waves by lighting a bonfire under her deck?! I have no time for such nonsense." - Napoleon
He knew exactly what he felt he...
hate and fear math? What? Never. I would never fear math. When I do battle against math I never quaver or shake, I look math directly in the eyes and swing angrily with full force. Fear math? Never. Never fear. Only hatred.
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Re:math: Do I use algebra every day? Hell no. Algebra is for chumps. I use calculus. It's easier. ;P
And yeah, as a crafter, I use a lot of math. I knit, crochet, sew, and make jewelry. And if you don't think that involves math, you've never found yourself standing in a craft store trying to figure out with the 50% off sale and the 20% off including sales items coupon, can you afford to buy enough skeins of this yarn to make that sweater after converting the pattern to allow for the difference in gauge.....plus don't forget sales tax.....
There are crafters who say they don't math. But then they do long story problems in their heads like it's nothing. Crafters who say they don't math are lying to themselves.
Edit: I also have a math related learning disability so I can definitely understand the anger of the folks who had crappy teachers. I'm just talented enough at math to still be really good at it even with the learning disability. Math and science classes I always ended up tutoring other people on how to do it. And I learned a lot better that way myself. And part of what I learned is that teaching math in large groups is a waste of time. Everyone processes the information so differently, it's really not practical to work with more than six people at a time in my opinion.
why is this thread full of hot women who knit seductively and yet are wrong about the evils of math? I clearly must minister to them, their lives are going down the wrong path!
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So, this is what happens when I try to take a night off.
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*slap*
you misspelled Freehold...
Daredevil: okay, Fisk is brilliant. In-character, and out-.
Dang it. XD
More Maths stuff. I should have known better than to disagree with the most verbose person on these boards xD
No offence Tacticslion xD its charming but you do use an awful lot of words.
There used to be words here but now you'll never know
~mystery~ ~intrigue~
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If it helps, the General hates math.
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Finally got the kidlet's prescriptions. Wildly overpayed. But what was I gonna do? Kid needs the medicine so he can breathe. Asthma is rough like that. My husband already took it to the head of HR and she's going to look into it. Hopefully we won't have to keep paying through the nose for his medicine.
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Finally got the kidlet's prescriptions. Wildly overpayed. But what was I gonna do? Kid needs the medicine so he can breathe. Asthma is rough like that. My husband already took it to the head of HR and she's going to look into it. Hopefully we won't have to keep paying through the nose for his medicine.
I sincerely hope she gets on top of it. I would hate to have to chocolate cake her.
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If it helps, the General hates math.
|
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*slap*you misspelled Freehold...
Oh, I never favorite Freehold posts.
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Grr... why do APs always do this to me?
An evil couple (TM) invites the party to sit down to have some wine. The AP says, "The sorcerer attempts to surreptitiously cast Suggestion to magically encourage the PC that seems to be the “leader” to sit down and have a drink..."
So, casting a spell is a standard action that provokes an AoO and has a Perception DC of -10 ("the caster must speak in a strong voice"). There's an entire thread dedicated to the 11 or so feats and skills you need to be able to cast "surreptitiously", and you can't do it until you're around 13th level. Unless you're a bard who happens to be performing at the moment, which she isn't.
So what the heck, authors? Do you actually understand the rule system you're using?
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Finally got the kidlet's prescriptions. Wildly overpayed. But what was I gonna do? Kid needs the medicine so he can breathe. Asthma is rough like that. My husband already took it to the head of HR and she's going to look into it. Hopefully we won't have to keep paying through the nose for his medicine.
Have HR fight to get you reimbursed too. You shouldn't have had to pay it the first time.
I'd loan you Global Megacorp's HR department (they really are great), but I think they insist that you actually, y'know, work for them. Details, details...
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Rules be damned, I do what the AP says.
Or course, then it's on me to try to work it into the conversation. :-)
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Any fans of Discworld about?
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So what the heck, authors? Do you actually understand the rule system you're using?
Given that rule was initially unwritten and is deeply counter intuitive, no. They don't.
Silksworn Occultists can do it though :)
Lol pathfinder info. in this thread. feels dirty.
Grr... why do APs always do this to me?
An evil couple (TM) invites the party to sit down to have some wine. The AP says, "The sorcerer attempts to surreptitiously cast Suggestion to magically encourage the PC that seems to be the “leader” to sit down and have a drink..."
So, casting a spell is a standard action that provokes an AoO and has a Perception DC of -10 ("the caster must speak in a strong voice"). There's an entire thread dedicated to the 11 or so feats and skills you need to be able to cast "surreptitiously", and you can't do it until you're around 13th level. Unless you're a bard who happens to be performing at the moment, which she isn't.
So what the heck, authors? Do you actually understand the rule system you're using?
No.
And I say that as someone who really, really likes the APs and the rules systems they use.
Or rather, I think many of the authors do, but I think they don't really care, because it makes their story "better" - it's a thing that I disagree with, strongly, but it's a consistent choice in APs, starting with the first, and going throughout.
Part of the problem, however, is that there was a transition between 3.5 and PF. There are changes that are not obvious and have caused lots of legacy issues. This also feeds into PF's APs' problems along this lines. There are, in secret, multiple competing systems, and it depends on which year you're discussing things. In PF, the first year it was published as an independent system, it was hailed as backwards compatible. That means that rulings that previously held, unless explicitly stated were still held.
And there were a lot of changes - a lot of extremely small changes - that apparently had significant and substantial ripples throughout the game.
So for the first four APs, it was 3.5 and held those rules. For Council of Thieves through Serpent's Skull it was "Almost the same, but different."
Then new classes. Awesome. But the rules continue to change. New things are published, ret-conned, altered, switched around, and there are so many feats that they were published so fast, I couldn't make a coherent flowchart. I simply ran out of room.
Then Wrath' and mythic rules, and by this time, it's just... bigger.
I am confident in saying that no one "knows" the game in the same way it was possible to know 3.5 - I don't even mean all the exploits (I expect the greatest of things is generally well known): I just mean that I don't think people can ever learn everything in this system.
To that end, I think a lot of authors - even a lot of employees - have probably given up and go with "good enough" anymore. And probably at many times in the past, at that.
That's both the good thing and the bad about it.
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@Tacticslion I deleted my above maths related wall, because I don't think big walls of use picking apart eachothers opinion will lead to anything other than hurt feelings so I'm distilling.
My opinion is this.
Basic maths, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division is useful for everyone.
More advanced maths, is useful for people who want to pursue it as a carrier and perhaps, to teach people higher cognitive function, critical thinking, that sort of thing.
I do not think that advanced maths is the only way to teach these things, for a lot of people I think it is a terrible way of teaching these things.
I do not think maths is especially worthy or noble, I do not think it should be put of a pedestal. I think it should be an elective rather than obligatory. Or at the very least when it comes time for students to start dropping subjects, rather than everyone having to be taught the same maths, which is for some, pointless there should be two certificates.
One for advanced mathematics and one for general competency to show perspective higher educational posts that you are indeed a competent person. Without forcing people to learn something they'll only retain to pass a test and then forget, which is not applicable to their daily, none maths related career pursuing lives.
In there interest of balance I feel the same about English and literature, a way to signify literacy should be obligatory, exploring the ins and outs of to kill a mockingbird perhaps not. Although I think kids not learning about literature would be a tragedy. Perhaps you feel the same about maths?
I do feel though that schools should absolutely do more to encourage wider reading. I don't think there is much more valuable than being well read.
If there is something more valuable that school can give you it would be learning social interactions and being able to talk to and handle other people. In my opinion.
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I'd like to say that, despite my being able to program, I also enjoy reading. I've read, and this is by no means an all-inclusive list, the following:
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
The Foundation Trilogy - Isaac Asimov
The Stars, Like Dust - Isaac Asimov
The Caves of Steel - Isaac Asimov
Various Xanth Novels - Piers Anthony
The Ringworld Novels - Larry Niven
Practically every Forgotten Realms novel
The X-Wing saga - Micheal Stackpole
The Republic Commando series - Karin Traviss
Various Halo novels
Rainbow 6 - Tom Clancey
Many novels by Stephen King
love XANTH.
Stackpole might be at the con. You want an autograph? I know zahn will be there.
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Rules be damned, I do what the AP says.
Or course, then it's on me to try to work it into the conversation. :-)
My entire campaign would devolve into:
"We walk into the bar.""I surreptitiously cast Suggestion on the guy at the end of the bar."
"I move my way down the line."
"HEY, EVERYBODY! Drinks are on THIS GUY!"
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Grr... why do APs always do this to me?
An evil couple (TM) invites the party to sit down to have some wine. The AP says, "The sorcerer attempts to surreptitiously cast Suggestion to magically encourage the PC that seems to be the “leader” to sit down and have a drink..."
So, casting a spell is a standard action that provokes an AoO and has a Perception DC of -10 ("the caster must speak in a strong voice"). There's an entire thread dedicated to the 11 or so feats and skills you need to be able to cast "surreptitiously", and you can't do it until you're around 13th level. Unless you're a bard who happens to be performing at the moment, which she isn't.
So what the heck, authors? Do you actually understand the rule system you're using?
No.
And I say that as someone who really, really likes the APs and the rules systems they use.
Or rather, I think many of the authors do, but I think they don't really care, because it makes their story "better" - it's a thing that I disagree with, strongly, but it's a consistent choice in APs, starting with the first, and going throughout.
Part of the problem, however, is that there was a transition between 3.5 and PF. There are changes that are not obvious and have caused lots of legacy issues. This also feeds into PF's APs' problems along this lines. There are, in secret, multiple competing systems, and it depends on which year you're discussing things. In PF, the first year it was published as an independent system, it was hailed as backwards compatible. That means that rulings that previously held, unless explicitly stated were still held.
And there were a lot of changes - a lot of extremely small changes - that apparently had significant and substantial ripples throughout the game.
So for the first four APs, it was 3.5 and held those rules. For Council of Thieves through Serpent's Skull it was "Almost the same, but different."
Then new classes. Awesome. But the rules...
wholehearted agreement.
@Tacticslion I deleted my above maths related wall, because I don't think big walls of use picking apart eachothers opinion will lead to anything other than hurt feelings so I'm distilling.
My opinion is this.
Basic maths, addition, subtraction, multiplication and division is useful for everyone.
More advanced maths, is useful for people who want to pursue it as a carrier and perhaps, to teach people higher cognitive function, critical thinking, that sort of thing.
I do not think that advanced maths is the only way to teach these things, for a lot of people I think it is a terrible way of teaching these things.
I do not think maths is especially worthy or noble, I do not think it should be put of a pedestal. I think it should be an elective rather than obligatory. Or at the very least when it comes time for students to start dropping subjects, rather than everyone having to be taught the same maths, which is for some, pointless there should be two certificates.
One for advanced mathematics and one for general competency to show perspective higher educational posts that you are indeed a competent person. Without forcing people to learn something they'll only retain to pass a test and then forget, which is not applicable to their daily, none maths related career pursuing lives.
In there interest of balance I feel the same about English and literature, a way to signify literacy should be obligatory, exploring the ins and outs of to kill a mockingbird perhaps not. Although I think kids not learning about literature would be a tragedy. Perhaps you feel the same about maths?
I do feel though that schools should absolutely do more to encourage wider reading. I don't think there is much more valuable than being well read.
If there is something more valuable that school can give you it would be learning social interactions and being able to talk to and handle other people. In my opinion.
I do think math needs to be put in it's place. I'm not sure what that place is, but it is different from where it is today.
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If you don't mind. Do you need my address? Or did you keep the shipping label from the Y-Wing keychain I sent you?I'd like to say that, despite my being able to program, I also enjoy reading. I've read, and this is by no means an all-inclusive list, the following:
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings
The Foundation Trilogy - Isaac Asimov
The Stars, Like Dust - Isaac Asimov
The Caves of Steel - Isaac Asimov
Various Xanth Novels - Piers Anthony
The Ringworld Novels - Larry Niven
Practically every Forgotten Realms novel
The X-Wing saga - Micheal Stackpole
The Republic Commando series - Karin Traviss
Various Halo novels
Rainbow 6 - Tom Clancey
Many novels by Stephen King
love XANTH.
Stackpole might be at the con. You want an autograph? I know zahn will be there.
look for PMs from me. I'll let you know what's going on.
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Tiny T-Rex was kicked off of one recess soccer team (the Magic Jaguars), so he recruited and started his own recess soccer team (the Magic Leopards) and they're going to face the Magic Jaguars in the recess soccer ball championship game, where Tiny T-Rex is sure they'll score fifty points, at least.
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Tiny T-Rex was kicked off of one recess soccer team (the Magic Jaguars), so he recruited and started his own recess soccer team (the Magic Leopards) and they're going to face the Magic Jaguars in the recess soccer ball championship game, where Tiny T-Rex is sure they'll score fifty points, at least.
I was about to say...
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Of course, that only begins the debate of whether Tiny T-Rex would be T.J. or Mikey (Crookshanks always loved Spinelli, of course).
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I was about to say...Tiny T-Rex was kicked off of one recess soccer team (the Magic Jaguars), so he recruited and started his own recess soccer team (the Magic Leopards) and they're going to face the Magic Jaguars in the recess soccer ball championship game, where Tiny T-Rex is sure they'll score fifty points, at least.
Even typing it out, I kept thinking "wait, I've seen that episode"
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It should be noted, Tiny T-Rex has never seen it as Disney doesn't stream it anywhere and Saturday morning cartoons died shortly after he was born (though we keep the tradition going) so this is all real life recess drama from the past week.
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Any fans of Discworld about?
YES!
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It should be noted, Tiny T-Rex has never seen it as Disney doesn't stream it anywhere and Saturday morning cartoons died shortly after he was born (though we keep the tradition going) so this is all real life recess drama from the past week.Are you introducing him to the classics( Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, etc )?
Of course. We have both a Looney tunes DVD set and Tiny Toon's How I Spent My Summer Vacation.