Just as long as that is all you grab
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OK. We have just encountered massive AP stupidity, and we need to know how other GMs manage it:
If you look at RAW, even a large metropolis won't have magic items useful to the party once they hit level 9 or so: The maximum base value for a major metropolis is 16,000 gold pieces, and you're sure as heck not going to roll PC-specific gear using the random tables, so that +1 Holy sword you wanted? Sorry! Not in stock!
So what do other GMs do? I mean, APs go up to 14th-16th level, giving the PCs hundreds of thousands of gold that they can't actually spend on any items worth more than 16,000 gp. And heck, in my Serpent's Skull game the *only* town near them is Eledir with a base value of 4,000 gp.
So, the PCs go to 16th level, but they're never allowed to buy anything worth over 4,000 gp? Oh, THAT'S going to go over well.
I figured I'd ask here with a "friendly" crowd first before going to the Rules forums with a big WTF?
(I never paid attention to base value when I ran, but now that Shiro's trying to write a rules-legal AP, he's asking, "WTH?!?!?")
Lesser planar binding/lesser planar ally a hound archon to do your shopping with greater teleport for you. When you get teleport/greater teleport, do the shopping yourself.
When a GM said he was not going to allow crafting(saying you must buy the components in the nearest town), and said I could not use lesser planar ally to get hound archons to do shopping I quit the game. I'm not that fond of being denied items I want. Especially since I actually bought a ring of sustenance and invested in crafting feats for the reason he said going to town wasn't going to be easy.
My reasoning: why didn't you just say I wasn't allowed to craft at the start of the game? The only reason why I put in crafting feats was due to the lack of resupply capabilities.
At higher levels planeshift and greater teleport yourself to Armun Kelisk in the Plane of Air with a base value of 29600 gp.
In my games I also allow piecemeal upgrades by something called upgrade dust. Say a mw weapon, you pay 2,000 gp for the +1 upgrade dust and you sprinkle it on and you get a +1 magic weapon.
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In games I run, I outright tell the players out front this is an AP and expect not to have magic mart. I tell them that they can ask me if the AP is good for crafting or not, even if it isn't, I'll give them a week of downtime per book should they want to craft. And of course I don't give a d@mn if you adventure in the day, craft at night, so long as you have your ring of sustenance.
Of course you're not allowed to craft all day and not adventure unless during the week of downtime that I gave, or the mod allows it.
That didn't keep my party in Strange Aeons complaining about the Thrushmoor base value of 2k gp and they even considered skipping book 3 by saying we teleport to Cassomir, just so they could buy better loot.
I was rather heavy handed and told them there were no casters with teleport in town. Just because I didn't want them to show up in Cassomir 3 levels underlevelled and wipe. I certainly cannot mod down the encounters, nor can I give them xp for purchasing a teleport spell, can I?
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Cold adds energy to my reserves, heat drains it.Cold drains my energy... And I get bus sick on bus when trying to post on phone, so I prefer to snooze it off.
Also my BF is a bad influence. He just wants to lie around in bed and refuse to budge..
Great to hear on your mom, LM!
Did Hi say anything about me?
For me it's the opposite. Cold makes me lethargic and reluctant to get out of bed.
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he didnt describe mort or anything?Cold drains my energy... And I get bus sick on bus when trying to post on phone, so I prefer to snooze it off.
Also my BF is a bad influence. He just wants to lie around in bed and refuse to budge..
Great to hear on your mom, LM!
Did Hi say anything about me?
Trying to extract information from Hi is even more difficult than taking candy from a toddler. Our *entire* description of Singapore was pretty much, "Yeah, I went on a 10 km hike on my very first day in really crappy shoes, and I was on pain meds because of my back so by the time I actually felt that something was wrong with my feet the blisters had , so that kind impacted the Singapore part of the trip..."
No pictures, no graphic descriptions (other than the blisters), no long tales.
We're hoping to get him drunker this week so he talks more. :-P
But if it makes you feel any better, he was in Japan for what? 7 weeks? And our ENTIRE description of Japan from him was a SINGLE place that apparently had eggs that were cooked in the hot springs.
The eggs? We got 10-15 minutes about how good the eggs were! :-P
I said, "So, from the fact that you're not talking about Mort at all I assume you two didn't get along all that well?"
"No, we got along just fine."And yep. He just stopped talking. Then started talking about the d**ned eggs.
Hi can be... difficult.
Don't worry... we'll get more dirt... eventually.
Saturday is ribs.
Waaaaah he finds eggs more interesting to talk about then me...
*starts caterwauling*
For us it was many, many crabs. NH you might have a problem in Hokkaido. It's all crabs, squids, octopus, prawns, scallops, fish sashimi and fish roe. If you don't take any of that, you might be in trouble.
Of course a diet of that doesn't bother me at all, since I have eat anything feat.
Quit your CAT-erwauling woman!
That feline pun was a-paw-ling.
Were you not feline that one?
Quit your CAT-erwauling woman!Beary funny, bear.
I think sandie found it grizzly.
*looks up from playing with baby owlbear (is it still a baby? how long does it take owlbears to mature?)*
I feel a disturbance in the Force. It kinda tickles.
I like it.
I think w had this discussion before a bear takes about 10 years I don't remember how long the owl takes but it was ALOT shorter.
These jokes are a catastrophe! Someone catapulted there jokes over the wall.
These jokes are a catastrophe! Someone catapulted there jokes over the wall.
Hey lets try not to Drag-on about it k?
I have a tin of bear in my luggage!
Like chewing tobacco?
I'm actually not sure what is going on anymore.
That is un-bear-lievable.
I will be glad when I get home and can go to sleep. I can bearly keep my eyes open.
Oh well. I guess I had just better grin and bear it.
Why so many bear puns? Beclaws I can. That is why? I will fur-sure keep them up.
I guess I am blubbering on too much.
I see your gonna fight this one TOOTH and CLAWS. Well that is ok I can SCALE that wall and WING it. Just have to take a breath and hopefully not take a breath from you then just DRAG-N-DROP you somewhere else.
Our forecast for the next two weeks (except this Sunday) is between 78-82 degrees and sunny.
Sweet!
Today I'm working solo because everyone else has dust certification class.
I get to level off a huge area that will soon have a high end patio (the rest of my week) and outdoor kitchen (which we'll build next week).
For me it's the opposite. Cold makes me lethargic and reluctant to get out of bed.Cold adds energy to my reserves, heat drains it.Cold drains my energy... And I get bus sick on bus when trying to post on phone, so I prefer to snooze it off.
Also my BF is a bad influence. He just wants to lie around in bed and refuse to budge..
Great to hear on your mom, LM!
Did Hi say anything about me?
worry not, cold encourages my bedtime activities too! ^_^
Isn't there a danger of Shrinkage?
You'd be surprised what an attractive specimen of whatever you're attracted to can overcome.
For us it was many, many crabs. NH you might have a problem in Hokkaido. It's all crabs, squids, octopus, prawns, scallops, fish sashimi and fish roe. If you don't take any of that, you might be in trouble...
No problems! I loves me some sashimi! It's not "seafood" that I don't like; it's "invertebrates".
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@Mort, Vidmaster:
Yes, those are the "standard fixes" everyone suggests: Either take crafting feats and ask the GM to provide lots of down time, ask the GM to provide specific magic items instead of random ones, or get major teleports to big cities. But even the biggest cities (for example, the 29,600 limit in the city on the Plane of Air) won't even get you a weapon with a +4 total bonus (+1 flaming holy longsword, for example).
So I'm just rather astonished that there are SO many absolutist, RAW posters in the Rules forum, and SO many optimizing, "It's in the book so I can buy it" posters in the Advice forum, that there aren't any massive thread wars on it.
It's a major issue for Shiro because he's trying to write a 100% rules-legal AP so that even the most obsessive-compulsive RAW GM can run it, and he's making it less grind-y by putting in CR+2 or CR+3 encounters, but it's in a remote area where in the entire country in which the AP is set, no city has a base value over 2000 gp. (Very similar to Serpent's Skull.)
Fighting incorporeal baddies with nothing but whatever random magic weapons the GM happened to drop is... less-than-fun.
I just find it rather astonishing that the base values are so poorly thought out in terms of higher-level play, and I didn't find any major thread wars on the topic. Just seems... odd that everyone just kind of figures out a way to ignore RAW and do something that works for them.
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For us it was many, many crabs. NH you might have a problem in Hokkaido. It's all crabs, squids, octopus, prawns, scallops, fish sashimi and fish roe. If you don't take any of that, you might be in trouble...No problems! I loves me some sashimi! It's not "seafood" that I don't like; it's "invertebrates".
MORE FOR ME
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The hidden costs of your first family vacation.
Do people still use luggage.
If so, we're going to need to get some luggage (for whatever airline to accidentally send to Memphis).
Isn't there a danger of Shrinkage?
as long as I am not immersed in cold water and intimacies are to occur in the next few moments, not really. I find the cold bracing.
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My dad and I enjoy eating exotic meats so we'll find some nice suitable occasion to burst out that can of bear. Hence the part about having a Beary nice picnic of canned bear.
I have heard bear meat is quite good. Please let me know.
@Mort, Vidmaster:
Yes, those are the "standard fixes" everyone suggests: Either take crafting feats and ask the GM to provide lots of down time, ask the GM to provide specific magic items instead of random ones, or get major teleports to big cities. But even the biggest cities (for example, the 29,600 limit in the city on the Plane of Air) won't even get you a weapon with a +4 total bonus (+1 flaming holy longsword, for example).
So I'm just rather astonished that there are SO many absolutist, RAW posters in the Rules forum, and SO many optimizing, "It's in the book so I can buy it" posters in the Advice forum, that there aren't any massive thread wars on it.
It's a major issue for Shiro because he's trying to write a 100% rules-legal AP so that even the most obsessive-compulsive raw GM can run it, and he's making it less grind-y by putting in CR+2 or CR+3 encounters, but it's in a remote area where in the entire country in which the AP is set, no city has a base value over 2000 gp. (Very similar to Serpent's Skull.)
Fighting incorporeal baddies with nothing but whatever random magic weapons the GM happened to drop is... less-than-fun.I just find it rather astonishing that the base values are so poorly thought out in terms of higher-level play, and I didn't find any major thread wars on the topic. Just seems... odd that everyone just kind of figures out a way to ignore RAW and do something that works for them.
Isn't that why monsters carry treasure.
The hidden costs of your first family vacation.
Do people still use luggage.
If so, we're going to need to get some luggage (for whatever airline to accidentally send to Memphis).
Target and Walmart both have pretty good quality cheap luggage. My cheap suitcase actually held up better than my husband’s expensive one on our last trip. :)
Just make sure to get free moving wheels. They make life lots easier.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Mort, Vidmaster:
Yes, those are the "standard fixes" everyone suggests: Either take crafting feats and ask the GM to provide lots of down time, ask the GM to provide specific magic items instead of random ones, or get major teleports to big cities. But even the biggest cities (for example, the 29,600 limit in the city on the Plane of Air) won't even get you a weapon with a +4 total bonus (+1 flaming holy longsword, for example).
So I'm just rather astonished that there are SO many absolutist, RAW posters in the Rules forum, and SO many optimizing, "It's in the book so I can buy it" posters in the Advice forum, that there aren't any massive thread wars on it.
It's a major issue for Shiro because he's trying to write a 100% rules-legal AP so that even the most obsessive-compulsive RAW GM can run it, and he's making it less grind-y by putting in CR+2 or CR+3 encounters, but it's in a remote area where in the entire country in which the AP is set, no city has a base value over 2000 gp. (Very similar to Serpent's Skull.)
Fighting incorporeal baddies with nothing but whatever random magic weapons the GM happened to drop is... less-than-fun.I just find it rather astonishing that the base values are so poorly thought out in terms of higher-level play, and I didn't find any major thread wars on the topic. Just seems... odd that everyone just kind of figures out a way to ignore RAW and do something that works for them.
Probably not 100% setting-faithful, but what about a wandering merchant who has a buying power of wealth-by-level? A lvl 10 aristocrat with PC wealth gets you a 62k buying power. They're an eccentric rich guy who collects magic items but oh, that's some nice gold yes I will trade and fund another expedition!
Probably not 100% setting-faithful, but what about a wandering merchant who has a buying power of wealth-by-level? A lvl 10 aristocrat with PC wealth gets you a 62k buying power. They're an eccentric rich guy who collects magic items but oh, that's some nice gold yes I will trade and fund another expedition!@Mort, Vidmaster:
Yes, those are the "standard fixes" everyone suggests: Either take crafting feats and ask the GM to provide lots of down time, ask the GM to provide specific magic items instead of random ones, or get major teleports to big cities. But even the biggest cities (for example, the 29,600 limit in the city on the Plane of Air) won't even get you a weapon with a +4 total bonus (+1 flaming holy longsword, for example).
So I'm just rather astonished that there are SO many absolutist, RAW posters in the Rules forum, and SO many optimizing, "It's in the book so I can buy it" posters in the Advice forum, that there aren't any massive thread wars on it.
It's a major issue for Shiro because he's trying to write a 100% rules-legal AP so that even the most obsessive-compulsive RAW GM can run it, and he's making it less grind-y by putting in CR+2 or CR+3 encounters, but it's in a remote area where in the entire country in which the AP is set, no city has a base value over 2000 gp. (Very similar to Serpent's Skull.)
Fighting incorporeal baddies with nothing but whatever random magic weapons the GM happened to drop is... less-than-fun.I just find it rather astonishing that the base values are so poorly thought out in terms of higher-level play, and I didn't find any major thread wars on the topic. Just seems... odd that everyone just kind of figures out a way to ignore RAW and do something that works for them.
i like that. A lot.
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He should totally be based on Teddy Roosevelt.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Mort, Vidmaster:
Yes, those are the "standard fixes" everyone suggests: Either take crafting feats and ask the GM to provide lots of down time, ask the GM to provide specific magic items instead of random ones, or get major teleports to big cities. But even the biggest cities (for example, the 29,600 limit in the city on the Plane of Air) won't even get you a weapon with a +4 total bonus (+1 flaming holy longsword, for example).
So I'm just rather astonished that there are SO many absolutist, RAW posters in the Rules forum, and SO many optimizing, "It's in the book so I can buy it" posters in the Advice forum, that there aren't any massive thread wars on it.
It's a major issue for Shiro because he's trying to write a 100% rules-legal AP so that even the most obsessive-compulsive RAW GM can run it, and he's making it less grind-y by putting in CR+2 or CR+3 encounters, but it's in a remote area where in the entire country in which the AP is set, no city has a base value over 2000 gp. (Very similar to Serpent's Skull.)
Fighting incorporeal baddies with nothing but whatever random magic weapons the GM happened to drop is... less-than-fun.I just find it rather astonishing that the base values are so poorly thought out in terms of higher-level play, and I didn't find any major thread wars on the topic. Just seems... odd that everyone just kind of figures out a way to ignore RAW and do something that works for them.
Think its on of those weird attempts to curb "magic-mart-ism" by capping the spending limit. Which is, as you have pointed out, not really that conducive to high level play (not to talk about how the system handles magic items and their importance in general).
So I usually let the Spell Casting limit serve as a "modifier" to what kind of magic items a town has available for purchase.
My thought process is usually, that If the spell casting X services are available, then there's someone in town who can cast the spells. if someone who can cast the spells, then the player can hire the npc('s) in question for the construction of an item (Yes, all my npc have item crafting feats, that's what feat re-training is for).
In short they pay to have the item constructed.
Now this introduces a "time-lag" in most adventures, so it might not be a appropriate method in a "ticking clock adventure".
Also I usually allow for the re-forging of magic weapons, with the following rule of thumbs:
Change weapon type: 2 day's work per +1 bonus, costs 5% of weapon value.
Change weapon enchantment: 5 day's per work +1 bonus, costs 50% of weapon value.
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Oh, NobodysWife was thinking of a bunch of dragonkin living in their own pocket dimension who were willing to find and trade anything as long as it increased their masters' hordes (hence the eternal 50% markup -- "We'll give you 50% of your item's value, then sell you another item at 100%"). It makes the economy make much more sense.
But the whole point is that Shiro is an ornery cuss, and just LOVES to say, "Well, the rules say xxx, so we have to play it xxx way just to PROVE it sucks!"
But when he realized that according to RAW our 8th-level party couldn't even buy +1 weapons, rings, amulets, belts, or circlets he relented. It was just TOO crippling.
The hidden costs of your first family vacation.
Do people still use luggage.
If so, we're going to need to get some luggage (for whatever airline to accidentally send to Memphis).
Target and Walmart both have pretty good quality cheap luggage. My cheap suitcase actually held up better than my husband’s expensive one on our last trip. :)
Just make sure to get free moving wheels. They make life lots easier.
During my travel days, I spent $1100 Canadian (around $700 U.S.) on a couple of nice Tumi bags (1 large suitcase, 1 small).
NobodysWife spent $80 U.S. on a full Target bag set (large suitcase, small suitcase, toiletries bag, makeup bag).18 years later, the difference is that the Tumi luggage is MUCH heavier, and some of the zippers on the Target luggage are broken. But considering both sets are fully intact, I'd say go with Target luggage.
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Dark Markets of Katapesh and the Legacy of Fire AP #21 (The Jackal's Price I believe) both flesh out Katapesh some. I know because it is one of my favorite areas of the Inner Sea. Katapesh has the following stats:
Size: Metropolis (conventional); Alignment: Neutral
GP Limit: 100,000 GP; Assets: 1,000,000,000 GP
Population: 212,300
Type: mixed (80% human, 6% dwarf, 5% half-elf, 2% half-orc, 3% Halfling, 3% gnome, 1% other race. 70% of the populace is free, 25% permanent slaves and 5% temporary criminal sentenced slaves.
Get a greater teleport to Katapesh instead of Armun Kelisk if your adventures take place in Golarion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dark Markets of Katapesh and the Legacy of Fire AP #21 (The Jackal's Price I believe) both flesh out Katapesh some. I know because it is one of my favorite areas of the Inner Sea. Katapesh has the following stats:
Size: Metropolis (conventional); Alignment: Neutral
GP Limit: 100,000 GP; Assets: 1,000,000,000 GP
Population: 212,300
Type: mixed (80% human, 6% dwarf, 5% half-elf, 2% half-orc, 3% Halfling, 3% gnome, 1% other race. 70% of the populace is free, 25% permanent slaves and 5% temporary criminal sentenced slaves.Get a greater teleport to Katapesh instead of Armun Kelisk if your adventures take place in Golarion.
(1) How are PCs born and raised in a backwoods supposed to miraculously know of the existence of Katapesh?
(2) At a 2000 GP base value and caster level 5, where are they supposed to get Greater Teleport?The problem is, everything's a workaround for a fundamental problem: The limits work well up to level 5 or 6, then start really hampering gameplay and everyone has their own workarounds for them.
All of which require various concessions on the GM's part: "Oh, you know about Katapesh because xxx." "Oh, you need 70 days to craft items for the party? OK, the world goes on hold for a while."
I'm more expressing frustration at the system as-written than looking for fixes. Crossing off "Base Value" and replacing it with "Purchase Limit" really fixes things nicely without having to think about it much.
So we HAVE fixes.
I'm just amazed to see so few threads dedicated to the problem.
I guess "real" players just take crafting feats and create timeless demiplanes.
Ha! Take that hillside!