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Scintillae wrote:
Hard to think of a stricter adherent to tropes and stock characters than anime, man.

this is a combination of watching the wrong stuff and bad collusion between studios and tv stations, mostly.

In many ways, things are going back to the old ways. You want originality, go the ova route. Tv series are going to lean heavily towards profit.


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Nothing more original than my nudity. Or profitable.


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A high school student with a bit of a reputation as an outcast finds himself heavily involved with agents and dangers of the afterlife. Some of his classmates also find themselves involved, and over the course of the series, he unlocks unprecedented levels of power and explores his secret heritage.

Am I talking about Bleach or YuYu Hakusho?

Note that I really enjoyed YuYu Hakusho. Tropes are not bad.


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Scintillae wrote:

In seriousness, though, I really can't say originality is the end-all, be-all of quality. There are some truly unique ideas out there that are rancid, after all. This isn't to say originality isn't important, though.

When I had seniors last year, I did a whole unit on the Monomyth/Hero's Journey using 1984, and we as a class talked about how pretty much every story follows that pattern in one fashion or another.

Archetypes exist for a reason. Plot patterns exist for a reason. Authors use them for a reason. Audiences recognize them and can find comfortable familiarity with them...which makes it all the sweeter when that originality does come into play and subverts their expectations to make something wholly new, albeit inspired perhaps by another source.

One can reduce anything to "this character is trying to do something, and someone tries to stop them".


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Freehold DM wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

In seriousness, though, I really can't say originality is the end-all, be-all of quality. There are some truly unique ideas out there that are rancid, after all. This isn't to say originality isn't important, though.

When I had seniors last year, I did a whole unit on the Monomyth/Hero's Journey using 1984, and we as a class talked about how pretty much every story follows that pattern in one fashion or another.

Archetypes exist for a reason. Plot patterns exist for a reason. Authors use them for a reason. Audiences recognize them and can find comfortable familiarity with them...which makes it all the sweeter when that originality does come into play and subverts their expectations to make something wholly new, albeit inspired perhaps by another source.

One can reduce anything to "this character is trying to do something, and someone tries to stop them".

...yes. The point of bringing up the monomyth was that there's one very common story, and this is not a bad thing.


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captain yesterday wrote:

I don't drink tequila, not sure why, but tequila and gin don't agree with me.

I should hope not! What a terrible flavor combination!


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Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.


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I'm also really into worldbuilding, so I can be perfectly happy with a by-the-numbers story that lets me explore an interesting new setting.


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Scintillae wrote:

In seriousness, though, I really can't say originality is the end-all, be-all of quality. There are some truly unique ideas out there that are rancid, after all. This isn't to say originality isn't important, though.

When I had seniors last year, I did a whole unit on the Monomyth/Hero's Journey using 1984, and we as a class talked about how pretty much every story follows that pattern in one fashion or another.

Archetypes exist for a reason. Plot patterns exist for a reason. Authors use them for a reason. Audiences recognize them and can find comfortable familiarity with them...which makes it all the sweeter when that originality does come into play and subverts their expectations to make something wholly new, albeit inspired perhaps by another source.

Tolstoy said there were only two plots: A Man Goes on a Journey, and A Stranger Comes to Town.


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...and I swear, talking some of the children through a thesis. If talking counted as running, I could be a NASCAR champ for the circles we go through.


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lisamarlene wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

In seriousness, though, I really can't say originality is the end-all, be-all of quality. There are some truly unique ideas out there that are rancid, after all. This isn't to say originality isn't important, though.

When I had seniors last year, I did a whole unit on the Monomyth/Hero's Journey using 1984, and we as a class talked about how pretty much every story follows that pattern in one fashion or another.

Archetypes exist for a reason. Plot patterns exist for a reason. Authors use them for a reason. Audiences recognize them and can find comfortable familiarity with them...which makes it all the sweeter when that originality does come into play and subverts their expectations to make something wholly new, albeit inspired perhaps by another source.

Tolstoy said there were only two plots: A Man Goes on a Journey, and A Stranger Comes to Town.

interesting.


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Prompt: What statement is Twain trying to make about American society in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?

"Is this an okay thesis?"
"Twain portrays the friendships of Huck, Tom, and Jim. Why?"
"Huh?"
"Why does that matter? What about them?"
"...that they're in there."
"Okay, they're in there. Why does it matter?"
"Because it's my topic?"
"But what are you saying about them?"
"That Twain portrayed them?"
"To show what?"
"That they're important?"
"Why are they important?"
"Because they're my topic?"
"Why are they important enough to be your topic?"
"Because he wrote about them."

ಠ__ಠ


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Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

i disagree firmly, but the way your mind works is fascinating. I'm glad this concept not just works for you but that you enjoy it so much. I can see how it would help an educator.


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...I just had a kid ask me if their outline was for a grade. When it is written on the board that it is. And on their assignment sheet. And I've said it six times.

ಠ__ಠ
ಠ__ಠ
ಠ__ಠ
ಠ__ಠ


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Did I stop teaching English at some point? Are they hearing Aklo?


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Scintillae wrote:

...I just had a kid ask me if their outline was for a grade. When it is written on the board that it is. And on their assignment sheet. And I've said it six times.

ಠ__ಠ
ಠ__ಠ
ಠ__ಠ
ಠ__ಠ

I don't remember using an elixer of youth and teleport spell recently hm.


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I mean, I only made it for a grade so they'd actually do it.


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More early essays! Less to grade next week, huzzah!


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Oh, I love when the kids try to use big words they don't know.


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Not even a plagiarism issue, just...the word isn't even a part of speech that would make sense in context.


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Do...do they think I won't notice when they're using bigger font? It's...a Google Doc. I can explicitly see the font size.

Shadow Lodge

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Nu-uh, that just wrong. And you're not supposed to check. Because reasons.


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I mean, come on. There are much more subtle and effective ways to pad length if you want to change font size. You just do it to all the periods/spaces.


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Scintillae wrote:
I mean, come on. There are much more subtle and effective ways to pad length if you want to change font size. You just do it to all the periods/spaces.

...

Did not realize that.


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.....of all the authors we have to cover, how is Mark Twain the one they manage to misspell? Shakespeare they managed, but Twain is apparently...sigh


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Freehold DM wrote:
Scintillae wrote:
I mean, come on. There are much more subtle and effective ways to pad length if you want to change font size. You just do it to all the periods/spaces.

...

Did not realize that.

Oh, it was a better bet when you had paper assignments. Digital submissions where the instructor can just ctrl-A and notice the little 12 on the font size goes away, not so much.


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Scintillae wrote:

Prompt: What statement is Twain trying to make about American society in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn?

"Is this an okay thesis?"
"Twain portrays the friendships of Huck, Tom, and Jim. Why?"
"Huh?"
"Why does that matter? What about them?"
"...that they're in there."
"Okay, they're in there. Why does it matter?"
"Because it's my topic?"
"But what are you saying about them?"
"That Twain portrayed them?"
"To show what?"
"That they're important?"
"Why are they important?"
"Because they're my topic?"
"Why are they important enough to be your topic?"
"Because he wrote about them."

ಠ__ಠ

This was 100% me in school. Even after earning a BA in English -- at a school all about Twain, coincidentally -- this sort of critical analysis is still a challenge for me.

Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.


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There used to be a nice little program called wc. It counted the characters, words, and lines in a text file. It's a shame that it's not included in Windows. I had to write my own. I shouldn't have had to. >:(


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Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.

That could be really interesting! I'd imagine you'd start with a fairly standard story setup (rescue the princess, kill the dragon, etc.) and have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure of common plot threads/sidequests to customize and flesh out the story somewhat.

Let's go with the dragon.
If blue, turn to the page about common desert creatures and plot seeds (djinn, merchant raiders, pyramids, malevolent mirages)
If green, see forest opportunities (fey, witches, mad druids...)
If white, see tundra seeds (winter wolves, weather mages...)

Then have common plot hooks in place for those sub-creatures before you actually face the dragon, standard dungeon designs for the terrains, etc.

I really like this idea!


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So, chaperoning is an interesting job, in that you not only have to deal with the students themselves, but your fellow chaperones.

Long and rambling:
Last night I was working with K. She's a perfectly nice, perfectly reasonable, competent, hard-working chaperone. But she is one of these adults whose mindset is, "I tell them what to do and they must do it. Case closed."
She discounts any emotions, interpersonal relationships, extenuating circumstances, or anything else. Her entire approach to chaperoning is, "You must do this because I said so."
Maybe it's because she works in the school district and sees them all the time.

So, what I've found in working with teens over the years is that they believe that they are intellectually and emotionally mature, but they aren't. But if you give them that modicum of respect, once they hit 15 or 16 they're really easy to work with.

The "wall incident" was a prime example. Some kids were jumping over a wall in their formals. She yelled at them and told them not to. "Why not?" "Because I want you where I can see you, and because I told you not to!"
Cue instant rebellion. Every time she turned her back, they were hopping over the wall just to mess with her.
I went over and talked to them. "Guys. There was an incident at the last concert. The chaperones are pretty on-edge right now, so they're going to be a bit touchy and want you where they can see you. Can you please work with us and help us out here?"
It got all but the original guy to behave. He was just pissed at K and kept doing it. I let it go, though it would have been funny if he'd ripped his formals.

But it's just this weird mindset among a lot of parents and chaperones where they seem to have completely forgotten what it was like to be a teenager. There's no negotiation, or discussion, or reasoning; there's just, "Do this because I said so."

In my limited experience, "Do this because xxx, so if you don't I'm going to have to do yyy and it'll be a PITA for both of us," seems to work better. But maybe it's just because we have a really good high school group.

I know the middle schoolers are still at the, "Oh, you wanted me to do xxx? Well, I'm going to disobey just to see how much I can get away with!" stage.


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Do as I say because if you don't, I am going to have to eat your br... ummm... report to your parents?


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NH - Dunno if I'd say really easy, but I completely agree that actually explaining reasons behind things does make things a little simpler.


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Limeylongears wrote:
Vanykrye wrote:
Aiymi and I see about 3-5 concerts a year. This year we went to Greg Howard, California Guitar Trio, Stickmen (Tony Levin), Dream Theater, and Tommy Emmanuel. Next year we've already got Weird Al and CGT lined up.

Bit of a prog fan? (Me too, though it looks like we like different bands. King Crimson are coming to Manchester next year, though, and I really ought to go and see them...)

This year, I've been to see:

Kamasi Washington
The Comet Is Coming
Sunn O)))
Snarky Puppy
A couple of local bands.

So mainly jazz stuff.

Yes, bit of a prog fan. I keep missing King Crimson when they play in Chicago due to scheduling issues. I like jazz too. Really want to catch Pat Metheny in concert at some point.


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Public service announcement: retail inventory systems SUCK, and whoever at Corporate office thinks letting customers see whether a particular store has something in stock is a good idea doesn't think things through. Once we hit 1 on hand or 2 on hand, I don't have it if it's not sitting on the shelf (it could be stolen, misplaced, in a customer's cart, a counting error, all sorts of stuff) and I'm so sick and tired of hearing "Well, the website says you have it in stock!". The website is wrong. The website is always wrong. No, I'm not going to check the back for you. I've got about 500 individual bins back there, that system is actually accurate, unlike the sales floor inventory system, and there's four customers after you waiting for me to unlock their stuff. I cannot spend time on this wild goose chase. I'd tell you to just call us and ask, but we don't have the staff to actually answer the phone.


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Tacticslion wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lusz&page=3539?Deep-6-FaWtL#176917

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lusz&page=3539?Deep-6-FaWtL#176943

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lusz&page=3540?Deep-6-FaWtL#176970

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lusz&page=3541?Deep-6-FaWtL#177014

Tzasis so far (posting so I can access them later to copy/paste when I have the chance).

Tzasis is both elitist and selfish.

And very, very expensive.

Those early lashunta who managed to survive to establish well knew the profits made by those who completed the route the old way, and were canny enough to understand trade route differences and exactly how much they could squeeze before traders would go elsewhere. While some has been trial and error, for the most part, the Pentarchy has kept that steady skill since.

This means they are free to:
- charge high tariffs
- hike prices for inn stays
- exaggerate money exchange rates
- charge tolls for transportation
- require payment for porter services (porters from Five-Villages, requiring an overnight stay in Tzasis, requiring more money spent...)
- demand usury for large loans
- enforce fees for "protection"
- doing anything else they can to fleece a would-be traveler of hard-earned cash

... and do so in such a balance as to permit the traders to make a profit worthwhile enough to go through all of it.

Make no mistake: the elashutvan cross-barrier trade route is exceptionally lucrative. And Tzasis knows this. What's more, by way of the Five-Villages caravans (most of whom act as desert guides to those traders who need it), it constantly monitors information from both ends, understanding exactly how well things have gone the previous trading cycle and thus making informed decisions for the future.

Which individuals are responsible for any given "job" is a matter of cutthroat Tzasis politics, ambition, quiet planning, and initiative - not to mention who wakes up first in the morning. Of course, in the busy times, there are so many travelers that not only do the people of Tzasis not need to quarrel over who gets to do what, but often are required to work together to collect all the raw wealth present for the taking. In fact, over the years, business has been so good that Tzasis has had to seriously consider finding ways to grow the thorp. This is one reason pregnancies are so celebrated - true, it means more competition, later, but in the short term, after a few years of hardship, it represents a few decades of enforced leveraged labor (as raising children constitutes as giving charity, and thus accrues debt at a 4x rate compared to that which is given).

Recently, in a bid to get more children, the populace has been turning to local hags - the suppliers of their vaunted and rare silks - to create children with them. Several hags, after discovering a strangel location, have turned themselves to males in order to shed the difficulties with childbirth, while still gaining the profit and influence, though a couple have subsequently turned themselves back. This payment for children is the origin of the large number of changelings in the thorp and villages.

The kobolds and hobgoblins each have different and mostly unrelated origins are desert-dwellers on the nearby Glittersleeve Desert - an exceptionally hot and beautiful part of the Impassible Lands (now no longer an accurate name, since the advent of Tzasis). The warlike nomadic hobgoblins often the trap-filled sand-carved warrens of the kobolds, though many others led raids against their smaller neighbors.

Though not originally part of the desert culture, feeling pressure from the grassland catcolk, the ratfolk (or Ysoki) stalked into the dunes, were kidnapped and enslaved by hobgoblin wanderers, and relatively immediately outbred their new masters's control and quickly becoming inheritors of many independent caravans themselves. Unlike the hobgoblins, however, these ratfolk became packers and traders, transforming the desert culture into one that could support trade. Nonetheless, they continued to be prey for the hobgoblins and the kobolds alike. It is into this situation that the catcolk finally arrive from the distant grasslands. Pressured by various forces, the already nomadic catfolk eventually entered the border territory, and, forced to eke out what little was available in the desert. These eventually made their way into the service of every form of caravan, and the few permanent surface-settlements. Since the founding of Tzasis, many of the jungle variety have been moved across the Lake of Tears, as well, and the two catfolks' cultures have blended pretty thoroughly.

The Wayang have long been bogeymen of kobold culture and the targets of Hobgoblin culture. Their bizarre living shadow-stone cities and towers and their tendency to haunt the tunnels led to many weird and strange interactions, and, prior to the ratfolk caravans, they represented the largest source of weapons and armor to the hobgoblins who raided their homes and places to take what they had made. Now that is changing, as many hobgoblins become less warlike and many ways he become more integrated into society.

None can say when, or how, exactly, the kitsune came to be part of society. They simply started showing up, and few questioned if.


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Scintillae wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.

That could be really interesting! I'd imagine you'd start with a fairly standard story setup (rescue the princess, kill the dragon, etc.) and have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure of common plot threads/sidequests to customize and flesh out the story somewhat.

Let's go with the dragon.
If blue, turn to the page about common desert creatures and plot seeds (djinn, merchant raiders, pyramids, malevolent mirages)
If green, see forest opportunities (fey, witches, mad druids...)
If white, see tundra seeds (winter wolves, weather mages...)

Then have common plot hooks in place for those sub-creatures before you actually face the dragon, standard dungeon designs for the terrains, etc.

I really like this idea!

This needs to be a thread all of its own, if you don't I will sometime today.

I'd like to start a bit more general, like "If we compare Paizo APs, what common structure reveals itself...?" But yes, this very much needs to happen. :)


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In other news, Homunculi #1 heard his father and father's gf doin' it. He knows about birds and bees, but he is now super-weirded out and my wife is livid after talking to her ex about it. ("I can't promise that it won't happen again.") Really, this is the first time I've seen her seething angry...


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Scintillae wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.

That could be really interesting! I'd imagine you'd start with a fairly standard story setup (rescue the princess, kill the dragon, etc.) and have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure of common plot threads/sidequests to customize and flesh out the story somewhat.

Let's go with the dragon.
If blue, turn to the page about common desert creatures and plot seeds (djinn, merchant raiders, pyramids, malevolent mirages)
If green, see forest opportunities (fey, witches, mad druids...)
If white, see tundra seeds (winter wolves, weather mages...)

Then have common plot hooks in place for those sub-creatures before you actually face the dragon, standard dungeon designs for the terrains, etc.

I really like this idea!

So, start with a motive and the BBEG, and build the adventure around them? Interesting.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.

That could be really interesting! I'd imagine you'd start with a fairly standard story setup (rescue the princess, kill the dragon, etc.) and have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure of common plot threads/sidequests to customize and flesh out the story somewhat.

Let's go with the dragon.
If blue, turn to the page about common desert creatures and plot seeds (djinn, merchant raiders, pyramids, malevolent mirages)
If green, see forest opportunities (fey, witches, mad druids...)
If white, see tundra seeds (winter wolves, weather mages...)

Then have common plot hooks in place for those sub-creatures before you actually face the dragon, standard dungeon designs for the terrains, etc.

I really like this idea!

This needs to be a thread all of its own, if you don't I will sometime today.

I'd like to start a bit more general, like "If we compare Paizo APs, what common structure reveals itself...?" But yes, this very much needs to happen. :)

Might be better for you, then. I would've just been "build around a BBEG."


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For those programmers among us that have an interest in OS development, I found an interesting website. I plan on using this info in my own projects.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
John Napier 698 wrote:
Scintillae wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.

That could be really interesting! I'd imagine you'd start with a fairly standard story setup (rescue the princess, kill the dragon, etc.) and have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure of common plot threads/sidequests to customize and flesh out the story somewhat.

Let's go with the dragon.
If blue, turn to the page about common desert creatures and plot seeds (djinn, merchant raiders, pyramids, malevolent mirages)
If green, see forest opportunities (fey, witches, mad druids...)
If white, see tundra seeds (winter wolves, weather mages...)

Then have common plot hooks in place for those sub-creatures before you actually face the dragon, standard dungeon designs for the terrains, etc.

I really like this idea!

So, start with a motive and the BBEG, and build the adventure around them? Interesting.

I like villains, and I find that if you start with the villain, it's easier to create a unified theme despite varied threats.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Scintillae wrote:
John Napier 698 wrote:
Scintillae wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.

That could be really interesting! I'd imagine you'd start with a fairly standard story setup (rescue the princess, kill the dragon, etc.) and have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure of common plot threads/sidequests to customize and flesh out the story somewhat.

Let's go with the dragon.
If blue, turn to the page about common desert creatures and plot seeds (djinn, merchant raiders, pyramids, malevolent mirages)
If green, see forest opportunities (fey, witches, mad druids...)
If white, see tundra seeds (winter wolves, weather mages...)

Then have common plot hooks in place for those sub-creatures before you actually face the dragon, standard dungeon designs for the terrains, etc.

I really like this idea!

So, start with a motive and the BBEG, and build the adventure around them? Interesting.
I like villains, and I find that if you start with the villain, it's easier to create a unified theme despite varied threats.

Plus, it just makes storyline sense.

The antagonist is the reason the story happens. The protagonists get involved because of something the antagonist did - either directly, or somewhere down the chain of side-effects and consequences of antagonist action.

And in a story without established protagonists, like a PnP campaign, the villain needs to be all the stronger and all the better connected, by more or less distance, to everything that occurs to give the plot cohesion.


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Scintillae wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

In a related thought-train, you know what I would find useful? A similar model of the D&D adventure and AP. 'Cause I'm great with rules, but writing adventures are still a challenge for me. The prospect of writing an entire AP is outright overwhelming, though I'd like to someday.

That could be really interesting! I'd imagine you'd start with a fairly standard story setup (rescue the princess, kill the dragon, etc.) and have a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure of common plot threads/sidequests to customize and flesh out the story somewhat.

Let's go with the dragon.
If blue, turn to the page about common desert creatures and plot seeds (djinn, merchant raiders, pyramids, malevolent mirages)
If green, see forest opportunities (fey, witches, mad druids...)
If white, see tundra seeds (winter wolves, weather mages...)

Then have common plot hooks in place for those sub-creatures before you actually face the dragon, standard dungeon designs for the terrains, etc.

I really like this idea!

This needs to be a thread all of its own, if you don't I will sometime today.

I'd like to start a bit more general, like "If we compare Paizo APs, what common structure reveals itself...?" But yes, this very much needs to happen. :)

Might be better for you, then. I would've just been "build around a BBEG."

Link it here when you do =) I want in on this.


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Sissyl wrote:
Do as I say because if you don't, I am going to have to eat your br... ummm... report to your parents?

Because I am the Authority here and that alone should be enough for you to respect and obey me despite me doing nothing whatsoever to earn it.


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Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

That's right.

Scarab Sages

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John Napier 698 wrote:
There used to be a nice little program called wc. It counted the characters, words, and lines in a text file. It's a shame that it's not included in Windows. I had to write my own. I shouldn't have had to. >:(

Because most people just let me do that for them.


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Orthos wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Do as I say because if you don't, I am going to have to eat your br... ummm... report to your parents?
Because I am the Authority here and that alone should be enough for you to respect and obey me despite me doing nothing whatsoever to earn it.

Do you want me to earn it?


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Freehold DM wrote:
Scintillae wrote:

Honestly, it's more interesting to me because so many things follow genre patterns. It makes whatever twist the author puts into place stand out all the more.

But I'm a big proponent of story structure and archetypes as a useful tool and shorthand. They're Thought Legos - what new thing can I build by switching these two blocks while mostly following a preset structure?

Sometimes, restriction breeds the most creativity.

i disagree firmly, but the way your mind works is fascinating. I'm glad this concept not just works for you but that you enjoy it so much. I can see how it would help an educator.

I wonder if perhaps this disagreement might be the actual core of why we disagree so much on the merits of entertainment medias.


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left the door open during study hall; a somewhat discordant blast of brass vaguely resembling "Up On The Housetop" plays

Student A: "...is that junior high?"
Student B: "I really hope so."

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