Rules Question

[Starsnuffer]

How do I determine the actual level of a spell?
I'm looking to make a mystic theurge that gains prestige access for its 4th level. I've noticed that the summoner gains access to magic mouth at 1st lvl, a 2nd lvl sorc spell, would this count as the prereq for being able to cast 2nd lvl arcane spells?
I've got the divine spell covered by going Aasimar and taking the alternate racial that grants corruption resistance which is definitely a 2nd lvl spell.
What I am currently looking to do is go Cleric 1/Summoner 1/ Sorc 1 with the empyreal bloodline and then be able to go into MT at 4th level.

Will this work and if not can someone provide a alternate legal early access?

[TimrehIX]

The level of the spell on the class list you get the spell off of is the level of the spell.
A supernatural or spell like ability is not the same as a spell and does not count as a spell for PCs.

[Starsnuffer]

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13

Is there something in the Pathfinder Society Organized Play rules that disallows this ruling?

[andreww]

The FAQ only applies to spell like abilities. When you gain magic mouth as a known spell that is not gaining a spell like ability.

[Starsnuffer]

Ok, that is all well and good, now please clarify, does a class granting an ability (as per the spell) count as a spell like ability?
And does having the ability to cast daylight, the spell found on the aasimar list normally- count for the arcance 2nd lvl spell prereq for mystic theurge?

[Brian Lefebvre]

The aasimar Daylight SLA counts as a level 3 arcane spell, and does not qualify as a requirement of being able to cast a 2nd level arcane spell.

If you are looking to go early entry into mystic theurge you should search the rules forums. There are many threads dealing with all of the potential combinations of races and classes that can meet the casting requirements of the prestige class at character levels 3 and 4.

[andreww]

Classes which give abilities will specify if they are spell like or not. For example various bloodline and domain abilities are specifically spell like.

The jury is out on whether or not having a level 3 SLA counts for the mystic theurge pre-reqs. It was raised in all of the FAQ threads when the change was announced and was never answered so expect table variation. Given this will mean you could be unable to play it may be unwise to rely on it.

However all of the Aasimar alternate heritages give a level 2 SLA instead of Daylight so if you use one of them you are safe for that part of the qualification.

The easiest early entry is probably an Aasimar Cleric2/Sorcerer 1. Angel, Archon, Azata, Garuda and Peri Blooded all gain a level 2 arcane SLA. The Fate Inquisition gives you Augury. Taking the Empyreal bloodline will give you single stat casting. You can do the same thing with an Aasimar Sorcerer/Oracle with the Oracle taking the Bend Grin ability from the Wood Mystery.

The Summoner level really isn't needed and will hamper your spell acquisition.

[TwilightKnight]

Gaining early access to a spell on your class list, changes the spell, for you, to be of the level listed. So, magic mouth is a 1st level spell for a summoner, not a 2nd level, as it is for sorcerer. Meaning it does not qualify under the requirements for mystic theurge. Anything else whether class, race, or other that grants you an SLA, would fulfill the requirements for theurge.

IMHO, the rules-lawyery evaluation that a 3rd level SLA does not qualify for the mystic theurge requirement is ridiculous. It is clear that the intention of the theurge is that they possess at least the ability to cast 2nd level spells of each type to show enough skill with and knowledge of magic to handle the stresses of advancing both types simultaneously. Regardless of your opinions on whether or not SLA's should meet those requirements is a moot point. The designers have ruled it qualifies. IMO, anyone who refuses to allow it to apply to a standard aasimar, but allows it for some of the variants who possess a weaker (level-wise) SLA, stinks of jerkiness and non-inclusion.

I was (and might still be) considering building one just to "test" the waters and see if any, or how many, GMs would actually kick me from their table because of it. I think I would have a hard time not walking from that table anyway with a GM who has such a literally restrictive interpretation of RAW v. RAI.

To the OP, I would really like to see a more complete view of the build you are proposing for my own personal edification.

[BigNorseWolf]

Bob JOnquet wrote:

IMHO, the rules-lawyery evaluation that a 3rd level SLA does not qualify for the mystic theurge requirement is ridiculous. It is clear that the intention of the theurge is that they possess at least the ability to cast 2nd level spells of each type to show enough skill with and knowledge of magic to handle the stresses of advancing both types simultaneously.

Ahah, i thought i saw this. This was answered in the FAQ.

However, spellcasting ability is not inclusive: it is possible (mainly through the use of spell-like abilities) to be able to cast 3rd-level spells but not 2nd-level spells. If you can only cast 3rd-level spells, that does not meet the requirement of "able to cast 2nd-level spells."

Its been clarified that the daylight definitely does NOT count for the mystic theurge. So yours may have to tweak the DNA.

[TwilightKnight]

Well, the FAQ is what it is, so I guess the standard aasimar is hosed, while the alternate racial variants are cool. Completely ridiculous IMO, but whatever. Since I don't really expect to ever see many, if any, of these builds, I can live with it.

Allow SLAs to qualify in the first place seems to have opened another can of worms of RAW v. RAI rules contradictions and unclarities*

*let it go grammararians ;-)

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

You know, I thought it would be a problem to, but the combos it opens up are really underutilized classes that were very sub optimal and now have actually made them playable. I DO wish more races could get early access though, because it does force everyone to be tiefling and Aasmir who want to take advantage.

[Starsnuffer]

So essentially I am looking at a racial heritage feat for the aasimar to have the right stats and then going cleric 2/emphyreal sorcerer 1. The cleric most likely being trickery and chaos domains.
Does anyone know of a way to raise my effective caster level to keep sorcerer in line with cleric progression?

I know magical knack can be used to raise caster level as a trait, but I'm wondering if there is a feat that would apply a +1ecl boost.

[BigNorseWolf]

No, nothing makes up for spell progression, and for good reason.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Mages Tattoo can do so for a single school of magic. Tattooed Sorcerer gets it for free, may want to look at that archetype.

[Starsnuffer]

Now I'm just bummed that the guilds from Inner Sea Magic aren't allowed.

Tattooed Sorcerer as far as I can tell conflicts with Emphyreal Bloodline.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Hmm, I've always thought the other bloodlines were like bloodlines, so archetypes that replaced them were ok. You may be right though, I'm really not sure on that now that I look at it.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

Starsnuffer wrote:

So essentially I am looking at a racial heritage feat for the aasimar to have the right stats and then going cleric 2/emphyreal sorcerer 1. The cleric most likely being trickery and chaos domains.

Does anyone know of a way to raise my effective caster level to keep sorcerer in line with cleric progression?

I know magical knack can be used to raise caster level as a trait, but I'm wondering if there is a feat that would apply a +1ecl boost.

Magical Knack trait allows you to add +2 to your effective caster level of one class, so your spells will be more potent, but your spells per day (and known) will not go up that way.

I am yet to find out if they are part of PFS, but the spell caster guilds from Inner Sea Magic will allow you to gather fame points, and when they are high enough you can boost your caster level (including spells per day) by +1 for one class and +3 for another. This stacks with Magical Knack, but does not allow your effective caster level to exceed your character level.

On a side note, your trickery domain ability of copy cat qualifies as a 2nd level divine spell if you would rather go cleric 1, sorc x, mystic theurge 10.

[Melvin the Mediocre]

On a side / side note - samssarin is a great race for MTs. +2 wis / +2 int. Go middle aged for +3/+3.

[Magda Luckbender]

Another note about qualifying for Mystic Theurge: A 1st level human Cleric with the Trickery Domain (Mirror Image, 2nd level arcane) and the Fate Inquisition (Augury, 2nd level Divine) seems to qualify for the 2nd level spell casting requirements for Mystic Theurge. This does away with the requirement to be e.g. Aasimar.

There are several extensive threads on this topic from last year.

[James Risner]

Starsnuffer wrote:

How do I determine the actual level of a spell?

summoner gains access to magic mouth at 1st lvl, a 2nd lvl sorc spell

But a 1st level spell for summoner, so not a 2nd level spell for you.

[RainyDayNinja]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Another note about qualifying for Mystic Theurge: A 1st level human Cleric with the Trickery Domain (Mirror Image, 2nd level arcane) and the Fate Inquisition (Augury, 2nd level Divine) seems to qualify for the 2nd level spell casting requirements for Mystic Theurge. This does away with the requirement to be e.g. Aasimar.

There are several extensive threads on this topic from last year.

Actually, the FAQ was changed, so even though the Copycat ability copies an arcane spell, since it comes from a divine class, it counts as a divine spell.

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Melvin the Mediocre wrote:

On a side / side note - samssarin is a great race for MTs. +2 wis / +2 int. Go middle aged for +3/+3.

It appears this is a PFS related question, based on what the OP stated, so being Samsaran or Middle Aged is not an option.

[James Risner]

In PFS, you don't get the old age +3 to abilities modifications.