How exactly does it devalue the fighter when a MONK can do the same thing.
I say leave the Samurai alone of the three classes it is the one that really does not need any changes, it is not overpowered and playing it side by side with a cavalier it did not over shadow it at all they were pretty much equal in power.
Samurai getting weapon specialization makes sense for the class, it does not step on the fighters toes mainly because they do not get the same number of feats as the fighter.
How exactly does it devalue the fighter when a MONK can do the same thing.
I say leave the Samurai alone of the three classes it is the one that really does not need any changes, it is not overpowered and playing it side by side with a cavalier it did not over shadow it at all they were pretty much equal in power.
Samurai getting weapon specialization makes sense for the class, it does not step on the fighters toes mainly because they do not get the same number of feats as the fighter.
+1
In another thread, someone said to apply a level penalty of -2 (say, a level 12 samurai counts as level 10 fighter). Could be a compromise.
What about adding a small list then? Or a sentence like
"Samurai counts as a fighter of his level for the purpose of gaining the following feats: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, GWF, GWS"
So, it represents the dedication to the weapon, without "stealing" things like distruptive.
IMHO, a narrow seek for balance by a 1-by-1 basis is impossible and risky for creativity.
How is a Samurai that much better than cavalier? He gets access to Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc. but he gives up Tactician and the bonus teamwork feat it gives. Remember, Weapon Expertise only gives Access to weapon specific Fighter feats, not the feats themselves so he still has to spend a bunch of feats to get them all.
The Samurai seems fine and balanced. Let's keep him access to those feats, taking them means he will not be taking other good combat options.
Seriously compare the Cavilier to the Samurai side by side and tell me which is more attractive as it stands now?
Er..
It depends from what I want to accomplish, maybe?
I mean, who's a better mounted charger, expecially high level?
What about tamwork feats? My group is heavy melee - charge bonuses + teamwork feats make them far more effective if used wisely.
Resolve and tactician are direct trade outs.
Weapon expertise is the trade for charge.
Rather than look at the base entry, lets look at the upper levels, the cav gets mighty charge and supreme charge, the samurai does not get any more feats to spend on weapon expertise than the cav gets at all to spend on anything.
If the samurai choose to spend feats on anything else other than his weapon, his weapon expertise fizzles, if he spends his few and far between feats to go along with his weapon expertise, then he is tunneled.
Meanwhile the cav gets the charge abilities for free and can spend his feats as he pleases.
If the samurai spends his feats as he pleases he gets "oooh ahhhh" quick draw with one weapon (thats not a full feat people) he must spend feats to get anything else, so a limited feat and access to a feat list otherwise unaccessible = one feat. Beyond that the cav and sammy are on equal ground, EXCEPT the cavs ability continues to get better WITHOUT feats while the the sammy has to spend feats.
So samurai does NOT win. It's Balanced.
Now look at the benefits, let's say the sammy took weapon focus at level 1, so by the time he gets expertise, he cant take specialization yet because hes not fourth level.
so he's stuck taking a feat anyone can get at 3rd
which means he doesn't get weapon spec until 5th (one level after fighter)
now he gets a bonus feat at 6th so... what will he take that will set the whole balance scale awry? Disruptive? oooh ahhh he can do it with one weapon and one weapon only, so it's a gimped feat and not one someone with say a bow expertise will take, unless the samurai takes expertise in shield, he cant take fighter only shield feats; further more the verbage of weapon expertise states:
Finally, his samurai levels stack with any
fighter levels he possesses for the purposes
of meeting the prerequisite for feats that
specifically select his chosen weapon, such
as Weapon Specialization.
So that means things like disruptive are out anyway.
So he spends his 6th level bonus on an every man feat, again a wash.
at 7th level again he cant spend it on anything fighter specific...oooohh ahhh another every man feat.
he has to wait until 9th to get another feat which would be greater focus, so again hes a level behind the fighter.
right now at 9th level, he's a whole +1 to hit and +2 damage a head of the regular cavalier with ONE specific weapon... which is situational, but the cav gets +2 to hit in a charge with any weapon (and he does not have to charge on his mount) which is situational.
The cav is free to work with any magical weapon he gets his hands on.
Figure the cav in the party can use the +4 flail you just found, technically so can the samurai but there goes weapon expertise.
Yea yea, i can hear it already, ill go to town, sell it and spend that money on a better katana.
Keep playing that way. I hear it works great to keep 12-14 year olds interested in the game.
I don't want to hear 'it's in the rules' to teleport back to town to upgrade magic weapons at the obviously available magic mart.
It's still situational.
So those things wash.
Samurai's weapon can get sundered, disarmed, heat metal whatever, then he's suddenly at a disadvantage where as the cav still has all his abilities available to him.
the fighter at this level, yea...he could fall victim to the same thing, be he also has a whole lot more feats that he's likely spread out into other things and presumably has more than one trick up his sleeve.
at 11th, again the sammy cant take pentrating strike or gr. wep spec, not high enough level for it yet, so he spends this one on an every man feat again.
At 12th he gets the bonus so he can get either Penetrating Strike (with one weapon only) or Gr. Wep Spec....
the fighter who takes penetrating strike can apply that to any weapon he weilds, and its a great boon if hes a two weapon fighter.
If the samurai is a TWF he's falling far behind.
He cant gr. focus or specialize in his off hand weapon, and he's spent all his everyman feats just to keep up with off hand attacks and maybe two weapon defense, or rend or something.
Fighter out paces him, cavalier is balanced with situational versus situational.
Again if you play in a world where the players have instant access to upgrades and anything their little hearts desire, if it's in the books you can buy it, then it might seem unbalanced as that situation is less situational, but then the cavalier can have horsehoes of zephyr and all manner of other things to make his horse and charges less situational as well, so....it's still a wash
I never built in "can buy a new katana" etc into the consideration... If a GM consistently goes out of his way to sunder a character's main weapon and make it irrepairable/irreplacable then its pretty much the same DM who will steal a Wizards Spell book for giggles. It does however affect a fighter who has focused/weapon spec'ed in one weapon that you sunder in EXACTLY the same way - he just uses a substandard weapon, ala Roy Greenhilt from Order of the Stick, who went with Great Club until the GMs plotline allowed him a better version (suitable for beating the BBEG) of his preferred/chosen weapon.
Other features the samurai get balance against improvement in charge - greater resolve for instance negates critical hits. Thats very useful. Honourable stand is also pretty badass and True Resolve (though I dont play at this high a level) is a free 'Get out of Death' (albeit death could follow next round) card.
Finally I agree with you he lags a wee bit behind the fighter in those feats but its ACCESS to those feats that make being a fighter worth playing from a balance perspective, its almost a class feature mechanic.
One of the Archtype monks got access to Weapon Spec by giving up something... again, the Cavilier *can't* replicate this access to Weapon Spec with their existing features and the samurai features give up *nothing* for it as they get compensatory features to make up for the lack of charge.
Keep it out of the base class is my firm stance - want to make a Kensai Archtype that is INCREDIBLE with a blade, allowing access to certain fighter only feats that gives up something more? I'm all for it.
I said this already resolve directly swaps put for tactician, greater, master etc. so you have to compare those abilities.
Samurai looses Tactician to gain Resolve, Samurai Looses Charge to gain weapon expertise.You dont see the samurai as 'loosing anything' because you obviously don't like the cavalier and don't see his ability as useful.
The samurai's weapon expertise is situational, just like the cavaliers charge is situational, but those charge abilities are pretty good, including doubling the threat range of any weapon he charges with and doubling the crit multiplier with any weapon he's charging with.
I can think of more than one BBEG who has had improved sunder in their stats, so you are saying they shouldnt use it against the party's fighter?
To compare sam/cav you have to compare whats been alternated... does weapon expertise trade for charge? does resolve trade for tactician you can't bring resolve into the weapon expertise comparison, it has it's own.
As far as robbing from the fighter, it doesn't. It would have to make a better TWF or sword and board fighter than the fighter, it doesn't.
As far as shield goes, I do think getting an exotic WP like bastard sword katana warrants loosing shield. which would be a big drop in AC potential for the samurai. who is more likely to be using bows or two handed weapons anyway.
so i say if anything drop the shield proficiency to balance it out.
The Samurai seems fine and balanced. Let's keep him access to those feats, taking them means he will not be taking other good combat options.What other good combat options are you referring to?
If you compare the classes side by side, skills, feats, class abilities, level by level the samurai wins. Period.
That depends how much you like the Cavalier features and is clearly a thing of your preference only, not an universal truth.
here is another idea if you are so upset about that 1 point of damage.
try ruling that Katana = Longsword.
and Nodachi = Greatsword.
problem solved.
i could see weapon expertise being quick draw and weapon focus in that weapon, and at level 4, if you chose the bow as the weapon you would get mounted archery, if you chose katana you could get TWF with the wakizashi OR power attack (depending on how you wanted to use it), if you chose naginata you could get power attack or over hand chop.
then maybe something again at level 7, 11, and 15....make it work something more like ranger's combat style, this would eliminate A) the encroachment on the fighters uniqueness
and B) silly fighter 1/samurai X builds
and would still give us the intended effect that a samurai is a specialist in a certain weapon.
AND if someone wanted to make a samurai/fighter it would make sense as they would get something out of it by giving up the faster advancement of a samurai alone
It also doesnt make sense to me, if i take weapon expertise in katana that next level i pick up mounted archery.... seems odd.
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I have no issue in general; it is flavorful enough, and fighters are generally superior.
I do understand your concern over them outdoing the Cavalier, but I look at it this way: sadly, PF has some classes (monk, bard, barbarian, ranger, rogue, cavalier, alchemist) that are generally inferior. Ranger and monk and bard no longer fit in this category, since they got "power crept" with kits nearly everyone takes now (unlike kits and options for the very powerful, which were generally on-power and occasionally weaker). The others are waiting for this.
I'm hoping Ultimate Combat will also give kits to improve/focus the Cavalier into someone who keeps up: same obviously with the poor rogues and alchemists. But in the meantime I don't believe it is fair to worry about power creeping the "weaker" tiers... ninjas are superior rogues, samurai superior cavaliers.
A question Thalin: have you ever seen a Cavalier in play?
I ask because my experience is different from yours..
I think it should stay
And the Samurai gets one weapon they should choose when they get it
It should either be
Katana
Long Bow
Or there crazy polearm/Spear
and thats should be the characters focus and they should make some suttle changes that have been talked about on other threads on this board
Since when is dazzling display limited to fighters?
Pretty much what Tae said.
They count as a fighter Only when dealing with feats that deal specifically with his weapon.
This means that a Sam who has this, is generally always going to be scrounging for his weapons.. because great magical katanas don't just fall out of the sky you know.
For example, the first session i played with my sam, I already had to give up a number of weapons, because they weren't katana.
The fighters ability isn't just that he has access to those higher level fighter feats, but the fact that he gains at least 1 feat every single level. My whip master couldn't possibly be created in any other class within any decent amount of level at the effectiveness it has without it being a fighter.