Just wanted to say thanks to the Paizo staff for all of the excellent artwork that you put into your book. My best friend bought all of the past adventure paths and all of the artwork looks amazing. Keep up the good work.
Just wanted to say thanks to the Paizo staff for all of the excellent artwork that you put into your book. My best friend bought all of the past adventure paths and all of the artwork looks amazing. Keep up the good work.
I hate to say it, but I think the worst part of Paizo products is their art. It has the stink of Japanimation and steers away from realism.
Ignoring the style, the weapons incorporated in their artwork are so bulky and over-the-top that they are simply ridiculous caricatures of what real medieval weaponry would look like.
In addition, the races look absurd. Elves have ears the size of bunny rabbits, gnomes and halflings look like children rather than different races, and characters are fraught with steroid-style physiques. Perhaps the most insulting about the artwork is the fact that so many female drawings wear extremely revealing outfits together with Dolly Parton-sized fake boobs - I swear the artists need to stop looking at porn for models of their female characters. I would wager that fact almost single-handedly drives 90% of women from taking an in-depth look at the game.
It's not that the artists aren't skilled. They are. It's just that they have very, very poor taste.
How bout a little realism in your artwork, Paizo?
Example: About half of the drawings on the right side of this page demonstrate what I'm talking about:
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog#v5748dyo5lbw6
Amiri, the Barbarian - WTF is that sword! The Rock couldn't even lift that effing thing.
Alahazra, the Oracle/Seoni, the Sorcerer - Here's your classic porn star NPCs. This makes me wonder when Paizo is going to release the Player's Guide to Flouting Your Breast Augmentation...
Lini, the Druid - Are you serious? I would laugh if that thing tried to attack me.
Lem, the Bard - Look, how did a five-year old make it as a bard? Oh wait, that's supposed to be a halfling, I think...
Sajan, the Monk - It's not steroids - he just got a vitamin B-12 shot.
Your good drawings? See Ezren, the Wizard and Harsk, the Ranger - they're still a little TOO decked out for my taste, but they at least look like they could be real.
Perhaps the most insulting about the artwork is the fact that so many female drawings wear extremely revealing outfits together with Dolly Parton-sized fake boobs - I swear the artists need to stop looking at porn for models of their female characters.
What drew my attention to the game was the artwork of the iconics, some of which are really impressive. Though, the cheesecake is, as you have pointed out, ridiculous. One example which made me think, "Really?" is the illustration of Seoni casting Chain Lightning on pg. 253 of the Core Rulebook. If you haven't seen it take a look next time you're at your local gaming store. It's lulzy.
I really like the art in Pathfinder.
This is coming from an old school lover of the old, original D&D art. I still love all that stuff, and I sometimes feel the modern take is too direct and lacking subtlety.
But that said, I think the Paizo stuff is a big improvement from much of the 3.5 stuff. It's more dynamic, and I like the use of color and detail. It's vibrant. It stands out. And there is a certain je ne sais quoi to the style of the backgrounds that I find intriguing.
As to supposed "breast augmentation," I feel bad for you guys. Maybe because I was sort of a local rock star in my area, I have a wider range of experiences than many other gamers. But I can guarantee they can look like that and be quite real.
If you are interested in realism, fantasy games might not be the best place to look.
Third Edition was much worse when it came to perspective and proportions.
I know it's tough to conceive for some people but fantasy can be done in a believable, realistic way. In fact, it's far more effective that way IMO.
But I will agree that Paizo is an improvement over 3rd edition - not that that's much of an accomplishment.
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I know it's tough to conceive for some people but fantasy can be done in a believable, realistic way. In fact, it's far more effective that way IMO.
Fantasy? Yes. A fantasy game based on D&D? No.
I'm not a fan of every art piece in Pathfinder. I strongly dislike the Sahuagin picture in the Bestiary and the Pegasus from the same book has very disturbing eyes. But most of the art is fitting and I like it.
I for one am tired of all the martial characters being portrayed as svelt muscular males. Hello!?!? Realism!?!? <rolls eyes>
This surely drives away overweight male gamers!
/end sarcasm.
Sajan, the Monk - It's not steroids - he just got a vitamin B-12 shot....
Lolwhat? The Monk is ripped but he isn't built like a tree.
This is coming from an old school lover of the old, original D&D art. I still love all that stuff, and I sometimes feel the modern take is too direct and lacking subtlety.
Bingo. "Lacking subtlety" is really my number one complaint.
As to supposed "breast augmentation," I feel bad for you guys. Maybe because I was sort of a local rock star in my area, I have a wider range of experiences than many other gamers. But I can guarantee they can look like that and be quite real.
I'm married. No need to feel sorry for me - My wife is in great shape and has very nice breasts, but they have never looked like that and never will without invasive surgery.
Now, you could be Sammy Hagar for all I know, but in my experience, breasts do not look like that naturally. The only place I've seen breasts like that are in strip clubs and pornos.
IMO, "art" like that disengages women from Pathfinder. I have two adult women (one is my wife) who play in my game and I find myself trying to suppress these images because I think they completely misrepresent what the game is about. In short, it's embarrassing and somewhat sexist art.
Beyond that, it's bad business.
The only place I've seen breasts like that are in strip clubs and pornos.
But the art in an RPG is unacceptable.
All in all I like the art too, but it reminds me a bit of adult movies, the more popular the brand the bigger the breasts.
I hope it doesn't continue like that, or else they will have to count as companions.
I don't know if it's bad business, adult movies don't seem to think so. However it will give the impression that mostly adolescent boys play this game.
Anyway, except from this, I am really really satisfied with the art.
New week, new "ZOMG, there's sexist art in RPGs" thread.
I'm pretty new to these boards, so I apologize if I've unwittingly touched on a reoccurring/worn-out theme.
But, if it does come up weekly from independent sources, then maybe there's a little validity to the point, no?
P.S. Just in case you have that impression, you're mistaken if you think I'm some sort of political-correctness-nut.
Also, re: Bad Business. Wayne Reynolds sells well enough for everyone to try to get him to do cover art.
I'm not talking about Wayne Reynolds's business; I'm talking about Paizo's business. i.e. If the porn industry is any indication, I have no doubt "augmented" art sells well.
The problem, IMO, is that Paizo is alienating it's female players or up to one half of its market (granted, it would be a hell of a stretch to argue that women make up one half of the RPG market, but I would surmise that it's a market that has great potential for growth). In addition, Paizo would help out its appeal to male gamers if they didn't have to hide the artwork from their female companions.
For the record, I think Paizo really puts out some excellent products, but only based on their content, not so much on their artwork (and there are SOME good examples of well-done artwork, but they're the minority).
The only place I've seen breasts like that are in strip clubs and pornos.But the art in an RPG is unacceptable.
Ha! Touché, and one point to you, sir. :)
Ha! Touché, and one point to you, sir. :)The only place I've seen breasts like that are in strip clubs and pornos.But the art in an RPG is unacceptable.
*shrug* I don't get it. Is the suggestion that porn and strip clubs are unacceptable in themselves, and we can't distinguish between the purpose of porn/strip clubs and the purpose of an RPG?
If that's the suggestion, and Paizo's developers think that's a good point, then that might be part of the problem...
Ha! Touché, and one point to you, sir. :)The only place I've seen breasts like that are in strip clubs and pornos.But the art in an RPG is unacceptable.
I'm just sayin'.
*shrug* I don't get it. Is the suggestion that porn and strip clubs are unacceptable in themselves, and we can't distinguish between the purpose of porn/strip clubs and an RPG?Ha! Touché, and one point to you, sir. :)The only place I've seen breasts like that are in strip clubs and pornos.But the art in an RPG is unacceptable.
Hipocrasy or irony. Take your pick.
The art in RPGs has always been a bit cheesecake due to the original male teen audience. However, Paizo makes sure to not only include cheesecakey females but beefcakey males as well.
Elmore, Caldwell, Eisley, they all fit into this as well.
The black and white artwork of the old days was more comic strip, that true artwork (not to say true art isn't art)
Wayne isn't perfect, that's for sure, I recall a certain Dragon issue where the fiend's head was set back too far on her neck, and while beautiful is still creepy to look at.
I WOULD not say Paizo's current art is Anime-like, they steered away from that in the Beta, though I did actually like those figures.
I don't believe the CEO of Paizo is offended by the artwork, and well She is a SHE.
EDIT: I'm also the fatehr of 11yo boys and they have been looking at my game books since they were 5, everything except the Book of Vile Darkness...
Hipocrasy or irony. Take your pick.
I fail to see either. If you can't distinguish between porn and an RPG, I feel sorry for you.
I fail to see either. If you can't distinguish between porn and an RPG, I feel sorry for you.
Hipocrasy or irony. Take your pick.
Oh I can desitinguish between them.
It's either irony or hipocrasy that the guy who's worried about how his wife feels looking at drawn images of "perfect" breasted women in a fantasy gaming book also frequents strip clubs and watches porno, which apparently doesn't bother her?EDIT: To me, this is like the politician who runs on the platform of family values getting caught doing lines of blow off of an underage hooker's stomach.
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Amiri, the Barbarian - WTF is that sword! The Rock couldn't even lift that effing thing.
If you actually READ the backstory of the character, that sword is a giant's shortsword that Amiri picked up and used to intimidate her clan after they left her to die in the wilderness. If you look at her stats writeups, she actually has a sword a size category too big, causeing her negitives in the to hit.
Alahazra, the Oracle/Seoni, the Sorcerer - Here's your classic porn star NPCs. This makes me wonder when Paizo is going to release the Player's Guide to Flouting Your Breast Augmentation...
Alahazra's got a bit of cheesecake going on, but she's from Rahadoum, an arid, desert nation on the northwestern corner of Garund. If you look at civilizations in similar areas in history, they wore similar setups and in some cases less.
Lini, the Druid - Are you serious? I would laugh if that thing tried to attack me.
Gnomes are the closest you'll get to out of this world illustrations, as they are from out of this world. They look weird because they are not native to the material world of Golarion, instead they are from the faerie realm.
Lem, the Bard - Look, how did a five-year old make it as a bard? Oh wait, that's supposed to be a halfling, I think...
So you laugh at Merry and pippen fighting the the battle at the end of return of the king? Remember, the witch king did this, and it caused his death.
Sajan, the Monk - It's not steroids - he just got a vitamin B-12 shot.
I dunno - Vin Diesel would fit this character perfectly, so would most professional athletes. As a monk I would easily put him in the level of a professional athlete. While, yes steroids have gone through pro athletics lately, many of them have cleaned up, and are getting the juicers out of the door, but many of the newbies still look like this..
Oh I can desitinguish between them.
It's either irony or hipocrasy that the guy who's worried about how his wife feels looking at drawn images of "perfect" breasted women in a fantasy gaming book also frequents strip clubs and watches porno, which apparently doesn't bother her?
A) I'm not just talking about my wife. I'm talking about women generally.
B) The fact that I've been to a strip club doesn't mean I "frequent" them.
C) No, it doesn't bother my wife. I assume it's cause she understands the difference between bachelor parties (e.g. strip clubs), material that is used for getting off (e.g. porn), and material that is used to have fun with your friends (e.g. RPGs).
That's tough for you to grasp I guess?
EDIT: To me, this is like the politician who runs on the platform of family values getting caught doing lines of blow off of an underage hooker's stomach.
Oh yes, watching porn is just like doing lines of blow off an underage hooker's stomach.
Ya know, just cause you watch porn doesn't mean you have no sense of decency.
It's a crazy concept, I know.
Alahazra's got a bit of cheesecake going on, but she's from Rahadoum, an arid, desert nation on the northwestern corner of Garund. If you look at civilizations in similar areas in history, they wore similar setups and in some cases less.
No, no they don't. In the desert, you cover up as much as possible. In the tropics, you wear less.
That's tough for you to grasp I guess?
No it's not tough for me at all to grasp.
But if you don't realize how much that one sentence makes you look like a hipocrite feigning outrage, that's ok too.Let me try another way.
Let's look at your post where you seem to have an issue with the foul objectifying drawn art of imaginary females in a friggin book, when you participate or condone other more blantant affronts concerning the objectification of real-life existing women.
It's either ironic that the same person thinks one is bad and the other is ok, or it's hipocrasy.
Now do you get it?
Frankly, whatever habits you and the Mrs. have or engage in doesn't matter to me at all, nor do I dislike you as a person, I'm simply commenting on how this looks.
Oh yes, watching porn is just like doing lines of blow off an underage hooker's stomach.
Ya know, just cause you watch porn doesn't mean you have no sense of decency.
It's a crazy concept, I know.
Nevermind.
Creative Director
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This topic has already been covered plenty in other threads, and while I always appreciate feedback on art... I'm not sure I like where this thread is headed. Keep the commentary to our art, not personal arguments, or I'll lock the thread.
For what it's worth, I don't find the art we do to be offensive. Neither does our senior art director (Sarah, who is a woman) or our CEO/Owner (Lisa, also a woman). I'm incredibly proud of Paizo's art style—it's won many awards, and it's one of the things that Paizo generally gets high praise for.
Anyway... keep it on topic, folks.
AKA: Heymitch is doing it right.
How bout a little realism in your artwork, Paizo?If you are interested in realism, fantasy games might not be the best place to look.
Third Edition was much worse when it came to perspective and proportions.
I don't usually find "realism" and "realistic" to be useful in discussing art, but there are stylistic considerations. The styles obtaining now are not much to my taste, compared to the ones I grew up with (Easley and Elmore in the 80s and early 90s). Of course I realize it might simply be because the stuff you grow up with is always dear to your heart, but if you compare, for example, the cover of the original Red Box or the painting of the party standing around the wyvern or dragon hanging from the tree in the 2E PHB to much of Wayne Reynolds' art, you will see what might be meant by "realism."
Pointing out dichotomy of thought or challenging someone's position on a matter isn't an attack.
But meh, whatever.
That's tough for you to grasp I guess?But if you don't realize how much that one sentence makes you look like a hipocrite feigning outrage, that's ok too.
I'm not "feigning outrage." I'm saying the art is in poor taste. Again, can't see the difference?
If you have to exaggerate my point to make yours, then you should realize you've got a problem...
Let's look at your post where you seem to have an issue with the foul objectifying drawn art of imaginary females in a friggin book, when you participate or condone other more blantant affronts concerning the objectification of real-life existing women.
It's either ironic that the same person thinks one is bad and the other is ok, or it's hipocrasy.
Now do you get it?
Again, you reveal your inability to recognize the difference in the context.
To put it briefly, I think "objectifying" the opposite sex is acceptable when you're getting off, but not in an RPG social setting. Get it? It's really not that complicated, or uncommon. And no, it's not hypocritical or ironic; it's an understanding that what's acceptable depends on the context.
I think that is just plain common sense.
Another example, I think it's okay to masturbate in your bedroom, but not in a McDonald's - again, that perspective is not hypocritical or ironic; it's just a recognition that acceptable imagery/behavior depends on the context.
Frankly, whatever habits you and the Mrs. have or engage in doesn't matter to me at all,
Okay...I would hope not.
nor do I dislike you as a person, I'm simply commenting on how this looks.
And I'm just pointing out that your "comments" are based on, for lack of better terms, a shortsighted and overly simplistic perspective. Frankly, I probably would have ignored your inane comment if I didn't see one of Paizo's developers giving you props.
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So Fnipernackle, where did you see your thread going before the first response happened?
It has the stink of Japanimation and steers away from realism.
Oh the humanity.
BTW Paizo, long elf ears for life. <3
Along with Heymitch, I love the pool of artists Paizo pulls form, both the realistic and the stylized. WAR, Andrew Hou, Belisle, Kevin Yan, Carolina Eade, Steve Prescott, Arnold Tsang, Eva Wildemann, and all the rest.
And to show that there's no clean divide some may make it out to seem, I also love artists from older editions like Larry Elmore, Tony Freaking DiTerlizzi, Gerald Brom, Keith Parkinson, Todd Lockwood, and so on.
(was never an Erol Otus fan, but you don't see me calling his art style badwrong and complaining that his work isn't made to my specific tastes)
For a while I was actually getting a bit worried that super-stylized art was slipping out of favor with the art department, but there's one artist's work I've seen popping up that definitely veers in that direction. Just a comfort to see, since variety is the spice of life. :)
...
It just keeps gettin' better...
Thanks!
The art in Paizo products is usually fantastic. If I were a wealthy man, I'd be commissioning their top artists to do work for my campaign.
It has the stink of Japanimation and steers away from realism.
I hope James won't take this as a simple "personal argument" but I'll take the risk. In a discussion of art, this is not a great point to make for a number of reasons. Ignoring Japan's contributions to the world of art in many forms which is generally accepted by mainstream and scholars to be a Good Thing, you can't lock down anime or manga into a single style. I won't go over this point since it's been beaten to death elsewhere, but the fact remains that putting anime/manga into a single bucket is a narrow-minded view of an entire country's contributions to the world. I also wouldn't start the points you are trying to make with a statement like this since it can be taken as racism.
Besides that, as somebody who has watched and reviewed hundreds of anime, I honestly don't see "the stink." Yes, some Paizo art is clearly influenced by anime, but it's an influence, nothing more. I'll take influenced, or even inspired, over an attempt at copying a style. I don't think any of the Paizo artists are attempting to copy any particular anime style, but maybe one of them can sound off here if I'm mistaken.
steroid-style physiques
Again, this would apply if we were talking about 80's anime, but the anime of today tends not to favor characters that look super muscly.
How bout a little realism in your artwork, Paizo?
This seems to be the meat of your point. While I think many will respond with "it's fantasy, not real," I do think you have a right to this opinion. After all, not everybody wants the same things. I think the majority of Paizo's customers, myself included, prefer a fantastic look to their fantasy art. I think the irony to this opinion though is that if you look at fantasy art in history (disclaimer: I am not an art historian), you'll find that the closer an artist goes to photo-realism in fantasy art, the sexier and nuder their women are. And the men are more muscle-bound. This is just my experience, but you can see plenty of evidence of it online or in old AD&D books that had some photo-realistic paintings in them.
Lastly, on that point about women being driven away from the game, I don't think this is a point any of us on this forum can truly argue beyond our own opinions and anecdotal evidence (Paizo excluded, assuming they've done marketing surveys, etc.). Complaining about sexism in fantasy art is something you see a lot on the internet and it's almost always a male who is white knighting the cause. I don't think this is because women are too scared of the internet (studies generally show they just aren't as driven to argue online as men are; I guess us men are silly like that).
I think, based on my own opinion of course, that the RPG market is still considered too much a part of nerd culture for most women to be interested. I don't think most women are even cracking the books open to find themselves offended in the first place.
I do think that art in RPGs is still evolving. If you look at the editions, you can see an evolution in both quality and style of art. It's the same thing we're seeing in gaming. How often does this same sexism discussion come up in regards to games? Yet only recently are we seeing characters like Faith in Mirror's Edge, Alex in Half-Life, and Elena in Uncharted. And it's far from widespread. I wouldn't be surprised to see Paizo commission art that is similar to these characters. And I think they would still appeal to the crowd that likes Seoni. But these changes don't happen overnight and aren't always welcomed by the entire audience.
I know I was directly replying to Leper27's post, but I hope my points contribute to the thread enough for the Paizo folks to keep it.
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I don't usually find "realism" and "realistic" to be useful in discussing art, but there are stylistic considerations. The styles obtaining now are not much to my taste, compared to the ones I grew up with (Easley and Elmore in the 80s and early 90s). Of course I realize it might simply be because the stuff you grow up with is always dear to your heart, but if you compare, for example, the cover of the original Red Box or the painting of the party standing around the wyvern or dragon hanging from the tree in the 2E PHB to much of Wayne Reynolds' art, you will see what might be meant by "realism."
Funny that you mention Elmore. His artwork is rather unrealistic in my opinion and he has also little grasp of proportions and perspective. Take a look at the 3.0 Monster Manual, his titan has strange arms. Not to mention his female characters.
BTW Paizo, long elf ears for life. <3
Seconded.
Pathfinder art is amazing. It is as it should be. It is great. Keep up the good work!
This may be off-topic, but rather than attack anyone, I'm just going to say that I like the art.
I like the art.
Again with the conciliation. Don't do the old "Flag, put on ignore list and concentrate on the positive aspects" routine. How are the boards to go up in flames with that?
;-)
(In other words: I agree absolutely.)
Lini, the Druid - Are you serious? I would laugh if that thing tried to attack me.
You don't know how druids work, do you?
When they attack you, they change their shape in a tiger or a bear, their tiger/bear pet starts to shred you, and there are elementals and lightnings soon added to the party so you are not only shredded by fangs and claws, you are burned alive.
Really fun! You are completely right :D :D :D :D :D
Seriously, the iconic are well made. Barring the fact that I find very funny (you know, more than an angry druid) see someone criticize Wayne Reynolds' art..
The iconic are well made because it's clear, seeing their expressions and stance, that their background and their attitude are hinted. They are not empty "this is a paladin lol". They are able to trasmit the feeling of the class and the fact that a member of that class is a specific character with an original story.
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I really like the art. Certain pictures of Seoni have a waistline that is a little disconcerting, but I think that is primarily an error in perspective made by the artist. As for the complaints about unrealistically drawn women, why did no one ever complain about the leather bondage straps on the 3.5 Sorcerer(MALE) Iconic.
Oh yeah and plus one for the sexiness that is Imrijka.
Just popping in to say:
1) Jacobs is right. Everybody play nice, or somebody's going to lock the thread down, and then we'll all have to go yell and insult each other in real life instead, which is decidedly more uncomfortable and dangerous.
2) Yes, there is cheesecake in Pathfinder. Seoni is cheesecake. So are Seltyiel and Sajan. If showing half-naked beautiful people is wrong, I don't want to be right. But I *do* think it's important that we offer a range of options, which is why we also have NON-cheesecake iconics, such as Kyra (who would punch you in the face if you offered her Mardis Gras beads) and Imrijka (who's a bruiser covered mostly in gear, for whom her sex appeal is the last weapon she'd think to use). And while we're at it, we've also attempted to steer away from the old-school fantasy standard of "all heroes are straight white folks," so that players can choose from iconic art for light- and dark-skinned characters, butch and fem characters of both genders, non-human characters, etc. And really, they're all pretty good-looking, depending on what type you're attracted to.
What I'm trying to say is, if you don't think the art goes far enough toward addressing societal issues--okay, fair enough. We're creatures of our society, and ultimately what we order and what our artists turn in are products of our own tastes and desires. Hopefully you'll find some art you like, and if not, the words in the books (remember the words?) will make up for it. And if you love the art--thanks! We're doing our best. But let's not get into a big mud fight about what is, ultimately, a difference in aesthetic and political tastes.
In all that I realized I forgot to say I love the art.
WAR is amazing.
I like Paizo's art better than the other stuff that's out there right now, but I miss some of the mystery and wonder of 1st edition art. Some of that may be pure nostalgia, but not all of it. As examples I point to the cover of the original PHB, with the thieves working on the gems of the idol, and page 108 of the same book, with the dwarves and halfling checking out a magic mouth on the wall, while a pair of eyes peer at them from the shadows down the corridor. Trampier's full-page pieces are all pretty good. They give a sense of something about to happen, whereas the art these days seems to be focused on the heroic pose or action in progress. Not that 1st edition didn't do this sometimes too, often with unintentionally comic effect stemming from the poorer overall talent.
In the bestiaries I would also like to see more of the monsters getting the better of some NPCs. Like the giant gar in the original MM, about to scarf down in one gulp a man desperately trying to swim away. That kind of thing made the monsters scary to me when I was a kid. I think there was one illustration with ants overrunning some poor chap in plate mail, but maybe that was in the D&D Holmes blue book. That kind of thing. Don't show me a portrait of an ant; I know what an ant looks like. Show me the horrible things ants can do to delvers.
Paizo got it right on the giant centipede page. More stuff like that, please.
The art in Paizo products is usually fantastic. If I were a wealthy man, I'd be commissioning their top artists to do work for my campaign.
Maybe so. I'm not enough of a connoisseur to say there are better, available artists out there. I'm just calling it as I see it.
And I understand I'm just offering one opinion. It probably goes without saying, but I have no problem with people disagreeing.
It has the stink of Japanimation and steers away from realism.
I hope James won't take this as a simple "personal argument" but I'll take the risk. In a discussion of art, this is not a great point to make for a number of reasons. Ignoring Japan's contributions to the world of art in many forms which is generally accepted by mainstream and scholars to be a Good Thing, you can't lock down anime or manga into a single style. I won't go over this point since it's been beaten to death elsewhere, but the fact remains that putting anime/manga into a single bucket is a narrow-minded view of an entire country's contributions to the world. I also wouldn't start the points you are trying to make with a statement like this since it can be taken as racism.
*shrug* If someone thinks that is racist or that I'm ignoring all Japanese contributions to the world of art simple because I don't like "Japanimation," then we're not going to get along anyways.
I could have been softer/considerate-of-special-sensitivities in my approach, sure, but I doubt it would have left an impression if I were.
steroid-style physiques
Again, this would apply if we were talking about 80's anime, but the anime of today tends not to favor characters that look super muscly.
Agreed. The "steroid-style" remark had more to do with my criticism that the art appeared "unrealistic."
How bout a little realism in your artwork, Paizo?
This seems to be the meat of your point. While I think many will respond with "it's fantasy, not real," I do think you have a right to this opinion. After all, not everybody wants the same things. I think the majority of Paizo's customers, myself included, prefer a fantastic look to their fantasy art. I think the irony to this opinion though is that if you look at fantasy art in history (disclaimer: I am not an art historian),...
That's fair. I just want to let Paizo know that there are people out there who are disappointed with their art. And I know it's a subjective topic, but I honestly think most of their art reflects poor taste (NOT poor talent, mind you).
I like Paizo's art better than the other stuff that's out there right now, but I miss some of the mystery and wonder of 1st edition art. Some of that may be pure nostalgia, but not all of it. As examples I point to the cover of the original PHB, with the thieves working on the gems of the idol, and page 108 of the same book, with the dwarves and halfling checking out a magic mouth on the wall, while a pair of eyes peer at them from the shadows down the corridor. Trampier's full-page pieces are all pretty good. They give a sense of something about to happen, whereas the art these days seems to be focused on the heroic pose or action in progress. Not that 1st edition didn't do this sometimes too, often with unintentionally comic effect stemming from the poorer overall talent.
In the bestiaries I would also like to see more of the monsters getting the better of some NPCs. Like the giant gar in the original MM, about to scarf down in one gulp a man desperately trying to swim away. That kind of thing made the monsters scary to me when I was a kid. I think there was one illustration with ants overrunning some poor chap in plate mail, but maybe that was in the D&D Holmes blue book. That kind of thing. Don't show me a portrait of an ant; I know what an ant looks like. Show me the horrible things ants can do to delvers.
Paizo got it right on the giant centipede page. More stuff like that, please.
Excellent post. I absolutely agree. Now, 1E had problems in terms of talent, but I find myself longing for their style.
Love the reference to the giant gar - I had kindof forgotten that image until you mentioned it. IMO, that piece of art outclasses most of Paizo's current art, despite being technically inferior. And we're talking about a giant gar here, an otherwise forgettable "monster."
I also remember an image of a green dragon breathing chlorine gas on a bunch of orcs trying to escape the blast (1e DMG I believe). Once again, the technical proficiency was lacking, but the image sticks with me.
In the bestiaries I would also like to see more of the monsters getting the better of some NPCs. Like the giant gar in the original MM, about to scarf down in one gulp a man desperately trying to swim away. That kind of thing made the monsters scary to me when I was a kid. I think there was one illustration with ants overrunning some poor chap in plate mail, but maybe that was in the D&D Holmes blue book. That kind of thing. Don't show me a portrait of an ant; I know what an ant looks like. Show me the horrible things ants can do to delvers.
Paizo got it right on the giant centipede page. More stuff like that, please.
It may not be scary, but for my money, you can't beat the giant slug on page 254 of our Bestiary. Every time I see him, I imagine him singing "LAAAAAAAAAAAAA!" I also enjoy the tiny peasant sneaking away.
Paizo got it right on the giant centipede page. More stuff like that, please.
Not bad advice, probably. Though they shouldn't do that for ogres...
It may not be scary, but for my money, you can't beat the giant slug on page 254 of our Bestiary. Every time I see him, I imagine him singing "LAAAAAAAAAAAAA!" I also enjoy the tiny peasant sneaking away.
Doom will come for you in the not too distant future! Your weeks are numbered!
It may not be scary, but for my money, you can't beat the giant slug on page 254 of our Bestiary. Every time I see him, I imagine him singing "LAAAAAAAAAAAAA!" I also enjoy the tiny peasant sneaking away.
Things I love of the giant slug:
1) imagine the peasant too embarassed to ask for help ("my house has been attacked by dragons/ogres/demons" sounds right. "A creepy giant slug hates me" not so much).
2) imagine a chasing scene.
3) Conan (the Hall of the Dead in English, correct me if I'm wrong), and an old old Magic the Gathering card.
2) imagine a chasing scene.
It'd be like that scene with the steamroller in Austin Powers...