A breakdown on adding AC to characters


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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A sample reference for gaining Armor Class bonuses

AC comes, at a fundamental level, in the following forms which are easy to gain: Dex Bonus; Armor Bonus; Natural Armor Bonus; Deflection Bonus; and potentially a Shield Bonus. Yes, there are Insight, Sacred, Profance, Competence, Dodge and all sorts of other bonuses, but the above bonuses are the ones that are easy to pay gold for and retain.

This is a simple basic guide to maximizing AC for gold.

Two builds are presented here – With Shield, and without Shield. Additionally, there is a third element here using Defender to accentuate your AC via an off-hand weapon, or on a shield.

First is going to be choice of armor.
The optimal types of armor are: Light Armor (all varieties add up to +8 Armor/Dex allowed); Breastplate (Medium armor, +6 AC/+3 Dex = +9); and Full Plate (+9 AC, +1 Dex = +10).

First thing to point out is that Mithral is only a viable AC option if you have the Dex to max it out, OR you need your armor to be lighter for movement purposes.
Classes that are going to get exceedingly high Dex scores are actually better off with lighter armor that allows them to maximize use of their Dexterity at later levels. The exception to this is the Fighter; because Armor Training expands the maximum Dex bonus, Fighters typically aren’t going to need Mithral armor until very late levels, when their Dex scores exceed either 20 or 24 (Full Plate/Breastplate).

Maximizing AC is based on costs to gain an extra point of AC. These costs are:

+1 Armor: 1000 gp, +3000 gp; +5000 Gp; +7000 gp; +9000 gp.
+1 Shield: As +1 Armor
+1 Natural Armor: 2000 gp; +6000 gp; +10000 gp; +14000 gp; +18000 gp.
+1 Deflection bonus: As Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Dexterity: 4000 gp (Dex +2); +12000 gp (Dex +4); +20,000 gp (Dex+6)
Mithral Armor: Light, +1000 gp , Medium Armor +4000 gp, Heavy armor +9000 gp: Total bonus +2.
+1 Defender on Weapon used for defense: 8000 gp; +10,000 gp; +14,000 gp; +18,000 gp; +22,000 gp. (ending at +5 Defender)

Now, we simply take them and add them on in series.

If your starting Dex is 19 and you wear light armor; Immediately buy a chain shirt. If 20 or higher, buy a mithral chain shirt. At 24 Dex, make it Mithral Studded Leather.
If your starting Dex is 17 and you can wear Medium Armor, buy a breastplate.
If your Starting dex is 13 or lower, buy Full Plate.
Note that if you are a Fighter, you need to increase the minimum Dex for Mithral by your armor training bonus.

Base:
Chain Shirt, 19 Dex = +8 AC
Breastplate, 17 Dex = +9 AC
Full Plate, 13 Dex = +10 AC

Bonuses are listed in the order you add them, with Defender bonuses last as an optional (you should take them before similar items if possible). Basically, you want Deflection before anything; Dexterity next; and Nat Armor and Armor Enhancements equally. This is because the prior two affect your Touch AC (so does Defender) and the latter do not.

Add Cost AC GP Total
Mithral Light Armor 1000 (+2) (+1000)
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +2 3000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +3 5000
Mithral Medium Armor 4000 (+2) (+4000, Dex 20)
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +4 8000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +5 12000
Mithral Heavy Armor 9000 (+2) (+9000, Dex 17+)
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +6 17000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +7 23000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +8 29000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +9 36000
(+1 Defender) 8000 (+1*) (+8000)
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +10 45000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +11 55000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +12 65000
(+2 Defender) 10000 (+2*) (+18000)
+4 Dex booster 12000 +13 77000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +14 91000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +15 105000
(+3 Defender) 14000 (+3*) (+32000)
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +16 123000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +17 141000
(+4 Defender) 18000 (+4*) (+50000)
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +18 161000
(+5 Defender) 22000 (+5*) (+72000)

Totals:
Light Armor: Mithril Studded Leather +5, Dex 25 = AC 36, 162k
Medium Armor: Mithral Breastplate+5, Dex 21 = AC 36, 165k (23 Dex exceeds allowable AC bonus)
Full Plate: M. Full Plate, Dex 17 = AC 37, 170k (Ditto, excess 19 Dex)

Fighter Armor Training +4
Note: Needs +5 Dex (level/inherent) on all!
Mithral Chain Shirt, Dex 30. AC 40.
Mithral BP, Dex 28, AC 41
Mithral Full Plate, Dex 24, AC 42

Mithral is basically needed to max out Dex bonus for Dex builds. For fighters, Armor Training basically means their Dex will seldom be high enough to max out their armor.

Using an off-hand weapon as a Defender adds 72,000 gp to the defense cost, but the +5 AC is significant...and of course you can always use it as a weapon.

For Shield builds, the cost is negligible (+25000 gp for a +5) and the AC is significant (+6 or 7), resulting in a much quicker rise in AC.

ADD Add’l COST AC TOTAL COST
+1 Armor Enhance 1000 +1 1000
+1 Shield Enhance 1000 +2 2000
+1 Ring of Prot 2000 +3 4000
+1 Natural Armor 2000 +4 6000
+2 Armor Enhance 3000 +5 9000
+2 Shield Enhance 3000 +6 12000
+2 Dex Gaunts 4000 +7 16000
+3 Armor Enhance 5000 +8 21000
+3 Shield Enhance 5000 +9 26000
+2 Ring/Prot 6000 +10 32000
+2 Natural Armor 6000 +11 38000
+4 Armor Enhance 7000 +12 45000
+4 Shield Enhance 7000 +13 52000
+5 Armor Enhance 9000 +14 61000
+5 Shield Enhance 9000 +15 70000
+3 Ring/Prot 10000 +16 80000
+3 Natural Armor 10000 +17 90000
+4 Dex booster 12000 +18 102000
+4 Ring of Prot 14000 +19 116000
+4 Natural Armor 14000 +20 130000
+5 Ring of Prot 18000 +21 148000
+5 Natural Armor 18000 +22 166000
+6 Dex Booster 20000 +23 186000

Assuming use of a Heavy Shield for +2 AC, at 12k layout you’re +3 AC ahead of the Shield-less build. At 50k you are +4 ahead. At 100k you are +5 ahead, at 150k you are +6 ahead, and you max out at +7 ahead.
Note that if you put Defender on your shield, and simply don’t attack with it, the numbers can look something like this:

Light Armor: AC 47, 52 with Defender
Medium Armor: AC 48, 53 with Defender
Heavy Armor: AC 49, 54 with Defender.

And all this is before Dodge, Shield Specialization, and incidental bonuses from spells, templates, defensive fighting, and whatnot. Note that to max Dex from Armor Training, any fighter is going to need Inherent bonuses to his Dex, unless he raises Dex instead of Str.

If he does both, then he probably wants a lighter grade of armor to max out the Dodge-based bonus of Dex, which is more effective against touch/ranged touch attacks.

=+Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

meh, it looked like a nice table when I posted it! :)

==Aelryinth


i only disagree with one aspect. starting out with dexterity enhancemnts, i would start with armor enhancement then decflection bonus. One reason is 4k is a lot to aim for starting at a level one character. some campaigns you would be lucky to get 4k by 3-4th level. 1k for armor enhancement you can usually scrounge before level 3. another reason is at low levels you dont have much actually attempting to do touch attacks on you so your touch AC isn't really an issue. plus if there is an issue where something makes a touch attack on you at low levels the party cleric can heal the damage easily enough anyway. lastly, is anyone acually that peranoid of getting hit to spend all your cash on AC!? o_O

i would prefer to do something cool with my magical items more than-he attacks you and misses....again...

Sovereign Court

Good stuff! Thanks for posting this!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You missed the Ioun Stone.

Are you simply sticking to core with this? If not then consider the madu with threatening Defender trait on combat expertise -- with this combination you can ignore -2 on the penalty. While two weapon fighting with a shield is expensive using this for a fighter can easily result in a +3 to AC for only a -1 on attack rolls at level 10. If done with a shielded fighter it's +5 for that -1 instead. Also there is the celestial full plate as well which offers the highest combined AC possible.

Silver Crusade

At 24 Dex, make it Mithral Studded Leather.
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by
being partially made of mithral.

Table 12–4: Character Wealth by Level
14 185,000 gp
15 240,000 gp
16 315,000 gp

Totals:
Light Armor: Mithril Studded Leather +5, Dex 25 = AC 36, 162k You can't make mithril studded Leather.
Medium Armor: Mithral Breastplate+5, Dex 21 = AC 36, 165k (23 Dex exceeds allowable AC bonus)
Full Plate: M. Full Plate, Dex 17 = AC 37, 170k (Ditto, excess 19 Dex)

Storm Giant CR 13
Melee mwk greatsword +27/+22/+17 (4d6+21/17–20) or 2 slams +26 (2d6+14)

Cra g Linnorm CR 14
Melee bite +23 (2d8+12/19–20 plus poison), 2 claws +23 (1d8+12), tail +18 (2d6+6 plus grab)

Neothelid CR 15
Melee 4 tongues +21 (3d6+10/19–20 plus grab)

Horned Devil (Cornugon) CR 16
Melee +1 unholy spiked chain +26/+21/+16 (2d6+11
plus stun), bite +22 (2d8+5), tail +22 (2d6+5 plus
infernal wound) or 2 claws +24 (2d6+10), bite +24
(2d8+10), tail +22 (2d6+5 plus infernal wound)

Talking about AC only works when compared to what your fighting.


calagnar wrote:
stuff of mithril studded leather

You can have studded leather made of mithril. After all if a druid can't wear it because of the metal content then it has enough metal to be affected by mithril.

In another thread I went over AC by CR with CoDzilla -- it is quite possible to have enough AC while having enough everything to have good attack and save throws (by 'enough AC' it was "be missed almost every attack by a CR equivalent monster").

Silver Crusade

Page 155 core book under mithril.
An item made from mithral weighs half as much as
the same item made from other metals. In the case of
weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s
size category or the ease with which it can be wielded
(whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed). Items
not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by
being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a
mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.)

Pages 151 & 153
Leather: Leather armor is made up of pieces of hard
boiled leather carefully sewn together.
Studded Leather: Similar to leather armor, this suit is
reinforced with small metal studs.

Ok Studded leather is not primarily made of metal. So it can have mithril studdes but will not change the quality of the armor.

The Exchange

Mithral studded leather? that's a new one on me too.

3.5 Races of the Wild has every possible main stream mithral armour listed and mithral Studded leather is not there.

I'm gonna call house rule on that one


Like I said if the druid can wear it -- I'm good with it being non-metal.

IF the druid can not wear it then it's metal armor and can be mithril.

No real middle ground there.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I will acknowledge that mithral studded leather is a wishy washy situation.

As a substitute, Mithral Chain + Mithril armored kilt would still be light armor, although it would require proficiency in Medium armor, and net you +1 AC for 1000 gp.

You could also do the same with Mithral Medium Armor, and 'effectively' get to the same level as your AC bonus.

The +1 Insight bonus of the Ioun Stone is another option at 5000 gp.
======
The order they are presented in the table is the order at which they should be gained.

The cheaper stuff is ALWAYS first. In the event prices are equal, you get deflection and Dex bonus first. Note that by far the cheapest AC is coming off armor/shield enhancements.
========

I did not take into account defensive fighting, expertise, feats, traits, or anything similar when doing this. I simply stuck with gold as the constant.

I also did not take into account that if you make your own stuff, your cost is halved.

==Aelryinth


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Nice breakdown of AC.

I always shake my head at people who say "AC doesn't matter at higher levels because opponents auto-hit." Just going by the core rules, it's easy for just about any character that can wear armor to get an AC of 10 (base) +11 (+5 mithral breastplate) +5 (14 Dex and belt of incredible Dexterity +6) +5 (ring of deflection +5) +5 (amulet of natural armor +5) +1 (dusty rose prism ioun stone) = 37 before any other modifiers for a total investment of 29,200 + 36,000 + 50,000 + 50,000 + 5000 = 170,200 gp (right about the "recommended" 25% of WBL for a 19th level character, even if you count the belt as a defensive item).

If a player wants to maximize AC, then a total AC of 10 (base) +14 (+5 mithral full plate) +3 (16 Dex) +7 (+5 heavy steel shield) +5 (ring of deflection +5) +5 (amulet of natural armor +5) +1 (dusty rose prism ioun stone) = 45 before any other modifiers is attainable for 35,500 + 25,170 + 50,000 + 50,000 + 5000 = 165,670 gp; which is less expensive than the character above. For a couple of feats (Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fighting) and a more expensive shield (+5 bashing light steel shield with +5 defending shield spikes; 159 + 36,000 + 310 + 72,000 = 108,469 gp), a character can have an AC of 49 when full attacking (AC 44 when not using the defending shield spikes) and the shield is still a light +1 magic weapon (bashing) that does 1d8 base damage (bashing, shield spikes).

If almost every opponent you face at 19th level has a +35 or better attack bonus, get a new GM. Per the Bestiary, Table 1-1, that's a high attack value for a CR 24 creature.

Dark Archive

Highest possible AC in the Core Rulebook

Enjoy. Although with Oracles and Osyluth Guile it should be possible to get even higher.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Abraham spalding wrote:

Like I said if the druid can wear it -- I'm good with it being non-metal.

IF the druid can not wear it then it's metal armor and can be mithril.

No real middle ground there.

The middle ground is there is no connection between the two.

By your theory, if you made wooden armor and put a hair sized strand of metal tied to the wood then it would have 1/1000 part metal by weight and would be:

  • unusable by druid because it contains metal true
  • be able to make mithril wooden armor because druids can't wear it false

Aelryinth wrote:
The cheaper stuff is ALWAYS first.

Nice chart of the costs. It makes it easy for a new player to decode.


I'm pretty sure I've seen an NPC with mithral studded leather in a WotC or Paizo adventure at some point.


Even a dedicated Dex character such as an Archer can get up close to these levels of AC if dedicated...though it helps if you're an Arcane Archer and can craft your items instead of sinking all that money in...(also casting GMW on yourself saves a TON of money at the high end on weapons)

Bracers of Armor +8 = 64,000
Mithril Buckler +5 = 26,000
Ring of Deflection +5 = 50,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 = 50,000
Dex Modifier +12 (belt and tome....expensive)
Base 10

AC 44

Of course, if you can attack from range, your best bet is probably just dropping 16k on Winged Boots.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:

Like I said if the druid can wear it -- I'm good with it being non-metal.

IF the druid can not wear it then it's metal armor and can be mithril.

No real middle ground there.

You know, I like this argument. It's definitely a gray area, but it's clever, and makes studded leather somewhat more useful - it's like the poor d12, never seeing any action, so anything to help it out is a plus in my book.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

BobChuck wrote:
You know, I like this argument.

So you like asserting these two statements are equivalent:

  • metal armor
  • primarily of metal

Go Go Speedracer!


If it's easier for people then conceptualize studded armor as a form of brigandine (leather with metal plates riveted underneath) rather than soft leather with studs attached (which would be a bad form of armor anyway). The metal content of brigandine is actually pretty high. Bonus is that brigandine is an actual armor type and studded leather is a misinterpretation of medieval drawings.

Overall it's a pretty good chart and definitely illustrates the progression of AC bonuses. Comparing the appropriate AC per level also shows that AC does scale properly with CR values.


Looking through items to increase armor the other day, I noticed ALL physical ability score increasing items are listed as belts and ALL mental ability score increasing items are listed as headbands.

I mean, wth?

Liberty's Edge

James Risner wrote:
BobChuck wrote:
You know, I like this argument.

So you like asserting these two statements are equivalent:

  • metal armor
  • primarily of metal

Go Go Speedracer!

Ah, so your one of those "Fox only, no items, Final Destination" sort of players.

* Would it work in a Pathfinder Society game? Probably not.
* Is it overpowered? Definitely not.
* is it clever and creative? Yes.

So what's the problem?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
calagnar wrote:
stuff of mithril studded leather

You can have studded leather made of mithril. After all if a druid can't wear it because of the metal content then it has enough metal to be affected by mithril.

Your logic is specious. it is not the amount of metal that's the problem it's the wearing of it at all. Technically speaking, wearing just an iron cross is a problem for a Druid. Wielding a longsword however is not a problem for those elf druids.

Going by the rules itself, while there is enough metal in studded leather to make the armor problematic for Druids, it structurally is not enough to make converting those studs to mithral have any significant impact on it's statistic qualities.


Cartigan wrote:

Looking through items to increase armor the other day, I noticed ALL physical ability score increasing items are listed as belts and ALL mental ability score increasing items are listed as headbands.

I mean, wth?

The designers felt it would encourage players to use more other types of items if the statboosting items were confined to those two slots. Or so I seem to recall the reasoning was.


Are wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Looking through items to increase armor the other day, I noticed ALL physical ability score increasing items are listed as belts and ALL mental ability score increasing items are listed as headbands.

I mean, wth?

The designers felt it would encourage players to use more other types of items if the statboosting items were confined to those two slots. Or so I seem to recall the reasoning was.

1) That's stupid.* That means you can't use other items for those slots and can only boost 1 stat at a time (until you get to the stupidly expensive multistat boosting item)

2) I thought Pathfinder was using floating stat boosting items - any slot could provide an item that increased stats so as not to clog up item slots with stat boosting items people were obviously going to take.

*It wouldn't be the first or only stupid decision made in Pathfinder...


Cartigan wrote:

Looking through items to increase armor the other day, I noticed ALL physical ability score increasing items are listed as belts and ALL mental ability score increasing items are listed as headbands.

I mean, wth?

That's something Paizo deliberately did with the pathfinder rules. Noteably, there is only one non-stat belt, and two non-stat headbands (but they're effectively the same thing, so one again). Your belt slot makes your body better, and your headband slot makes your mind better. No more confusion over which slot a stat boosting item goes in (Gloves of ogre power (+2 str) blocked all dex gloves, but at higher levels the belt of giant strength was separate, con and wisdom shared a slot, int didn't conflict with anything, and charisma conflicted with saves). Almost every game I was in, even when custom magic items were banned, specifically allowed combining stat items just so that wisdom based classes weren't screwed out of Con, Charisma based classes didn't have to give up their saves, and monks could actually use a monk's belt.

EDIT: More detail for the ninja'd post:

Cartigan wrote:


1) That's stupid. That means you can't use other items for those slots and can only boost 1 stat at a time
2) I thought Pathfinder was using floating stat boosting items - any slot could provide an item that increased stats so as not to clog up item slots with stat boosting items people were obviously going to take.

1) Pathfinder specifically has combo stat items for fixed prices. (Such as the belt of physical might: +2/+4/+6 to two physical stats, for 10,000/40,000/90000

2) No, there's just effectively nothing else that goes in the fixed stat boosting slots, so they don't conflict with anything else.


Cartigan wrote:

Looking through items to increase armor the other day, I noticed ALL physical ability score increasing items are listed as belts and ALL mental ability score increasing items are listed as headbands.

I mean, wth?

It was meant to consolidate stat booster to 2 body slots rather than force people to decide between a stat booster and another common item that fits in that slot.

The example that comes to mind is being forced to choose between a cloak of charisma and a cloak of resistance in 3.x (or pay the extra cost for a slotless item or a custom slot item).

Combined with the Pathfinder introduction of stat boosting combo-belts and headbands (which IMHO should break with the standard of additional modified ability scores costing a premium to a system of additional modified ability scores getting a discount- oh well) and you can see why the designers have decided that needing 6 slots to boost 6 ability scores is a bad design.


Also side: Circlet of Persuasion is the head slot, but described as a headband.

Well this is getting dumb.


vuron wrote:
and you can see why the designers have decided that needing 6 slots to boost 6 ability scores is a bad design.

Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time. And for mental stats, they are competing with the phylacteries which hurts Clerics and possibly Paladins.


Cartigan wrote:
vuron wrote:
and you can see why the designers have decided that needing 6 slots to boost 6 ability scores is a bad design.
Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time. And for mental stats, they are competing with the phylacteries which hurts Clerics and possibly Paladins.

I agree about the phylacteries. I'm not sure why a cleric would ever want +2d6 to their channel instead of +2 to charisma and wisdom or +4 to wisdom... But for boosting multiple stats: see the Belt of Physical Might and the Belt of Physical Perfection below it.


Cartigan wrote:
vuron wrote:
and you can see why the designers have decided that needing 6 slots to boost 6 ability scores is a bad design.
Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time. And for mental stats, they are competing with the phylacteries which hurts Clerics and possibly Paladins.

Boosting more than one mental stat requires a combo headband, more than one physical requires a combo belt.

Now personally I dislike the combo items costing more than if they were sold separately because I feel that provides a disadvantage to classes that want to boost more than one physical or mental stat. Instead of costing extra they should cost the same or provide a discount (which is how I do it).

As to the impact of headbands on phylacteries, I'm kinda meh. The positive, negative channeling one's are okay but I'm not a huge fan of them. Personally I'd move their effect to the cleric's holy symbol and make the holy symbol and enchantable item.


Bobson wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
vuron wrote:
and you can see why the designers have decided that needing 6 slots to boost 6 ability scores is a bad design.
Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time. And for mental stats, they are competing with the phylacteries which hurts Clerics and possibly Paladins.
I agree about the phylacteries. I'm not sure why a cleric would ever want +2d6 to their channel instead of +2 to charisma and wisdom or +4 to wisdom...

I have no idea why some one would want a Belt of Dwarven Kind or a Phylactery of Somethingorother over anything else - which is basically the point.

Quote:
But for boosting multiple stats: see the Belt of Physical Might and the Belt of Physical Perfection below it.
Me wrote:
until you get to the stupidly expensive multistat boosting item


vuron wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
vuron wrote:
and you can see why the designers have decided that needing 6 slots to boost 6 ability scores is a bad design.
Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time. And for mental stats, they are competing with the phylacteries which hurts Clerics and possibly Paladins.
Boosting more than one mental stat requires a combo headband, more than one physical requires a combo belt.

Seriously did you people not read my earlier post or do I have to include "until you get to the stupidly expensive multistat boosting item" with every post?

Do I really need Con? I might but I might not, but often I will need a +Str and +Dex. Same with Clerics or similar classes. Do they really need +Int? No, just +Wis and maybe +Cha. But instead of getting two much cheaper items in slots you may not use, you have to burn a headband slot and a ton more money. If they want to create mostly useless slots to add ability scores into, why not create 6?

Dark Archive

thanks for the post. This will help me out a lot.


Cartigan wrote:


Seriously did you people not read my earlier post or do I have to include "until you get to the stupidly expensive multistat boosting item" with every post?

No, you just need to include it in the first place. When I quoted your post, it wasn't there. Admittedly, I quoted it immediately after it was posted, so I don't know when it got edited, but your subsequent post said "Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time" So until the post I'm quoting now (and until your previous post was edited), you didn't show any indication you were aware of these items. Now that we know you are aware, people won't keep mentioning them as if you weren't.


Bobson wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


Seriously did you people not read my earlier post or do I have to include "until you get to the stupidly expensive multistat boosting item" with every post?
No, you just need to include it in the first place. When I quoted your post, it wasn't there. Admittedly, I quoted it immediately after it was posted, so I don't know when it got edited, but your subsequent post said "Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time" So until the post I'm quoting now (and until your previous post was edited), you didn't show any indication you were aware of these items. Now that we know you are aware, people won't keep mentioning them as if you weren't.

Same here, I rarely go back to see if a previous posters posts were edited afterwards. Further even if Cartigan knows about the overpriced combo items I don't know if every reader of this thread does.


Bobson wrote:
Cartigan wrote:


Seriously did you people not read my earlier post or do I have to include "until you get to the stupidly expensive multistat boosting item" with every post?
No, you just need to include it in the first place. When I quoted your post, it wasn't there. Admittedly, I quoted it immediately after it was posted, so I don't know when it got edited, but your subsequent post said "Indeed that was bad design, but so is limiting people to only be able to boost 1 physical and mental stat at a time" So until the post I'm quoting now (and until your previous post was edited), you didn't show any indication you were aware of these items. Now that we know you are aware, people won't keep mentioning them as if you weren't.

I mean Vuron referenced it 20 minutes later...

I guess these items are fair priced for a multi bonus in a single slot - or would be if there were options present for having different slots filled with a single stat boosting item. As it is, it's just a multiability dependency tax.


Cartigan wrote:


I guess these items are fair priced for a multi bonus in a single slot - or would be if there were options present for having different slots filled with a single stat boosting item. As it is, it's just a multiability dependency tax.

IMHO it's just that they fixed one area of play (too many ability scores / item slot issues) either without realizing it screwed up another area of play (MAD characters are disadvantaged) or not wanting to create an exception to the magic item pricing guidelines for stat boosting combo items.

I'm not above creating house rule based exceptions when the general rules create undesirable effects. In this case I think the current price schema creates undesirable effects and I mentioned my personal preference for fixing it should anyone care.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

BobChuck wrote:

"Fox only, no items, Final Destination" sort of players.

So what's the problem?

I don't get the reference, but the problem is that it doesn't make sense in the rule presented. It reminds me too much of these type of asserted rules issues:

  • Master of Many Forms gain all Ex SQ, all monsters abilities are Ex, Su, or Sp. Spells don't have "Ex" next to them so they must be Ex Sq if listed on the Special Quality line or Sa if on the Attack line. So a MoMF 7 PC gains the spell casting of all forms he becomes?
  • I can sleep and regain spells more than once per day/night cycle because I can debate you on the meaning of the word "day" and dream up a way I can interpret that word to mean "2 hours" instead of "24 hours" so I can get my spells multiple times per day?
  • Pun Pun can exist?

None of these are true, since all three (and more) require creative interpretations of the rules. They require looking at a rule, coming up with many ways it can be interpreted like this issue:

  • Studded Leather has sufficient metal contents to be primarily of metal
  • Studded Leather is primarily made of leather.

Which is a DM call.


Aelryinth wrote:
meh, it looked like a nice table when I posted it!

You might try uploading this as a public Google spreadsheet. It will keep your formatting looking good, be viewable without a login of any kind, and you can easily make updates later.

Thanks for the guide!

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