Ultimate Combat and Expectations


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Liberty's Edge

I want to see nothing resembling Monkey Grip.


obadiah wrote:
I want to see nothing resembling Monkey Grip.

Why not? Monkey Grip was one of the best feats that was ever made.


The problem with Monkey Grip is that if it is allowed in a game melee characters pretty much HAVE to take it or be left behind. Feats like that are bad design.

Grand Lodge

Expectation of a preview?


i loved monkey grip but not every character i made used it, i only ever used it for specific character concepts, actually in my group i was the only person who used monkey grip ever. we never found it a necessity.


Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
The problem with Monkey Grip is that if it is allowed in a game melee characters pretty much HAVE to take it or be left behind. Feats like that are bad design.

Really? Maybe with the power attack change and possible to hit curve differences in PF monkey grip might be good, but in 3.5 it was a trap feat for people who can't or won't do math but like their anime style oversized weapons. I do agree that it's bad feat design though.


Monkey grip was full of flavour, but I would not say it was a good feat. The -2 penalty was terrible, and barring high damage dice weapons the trade off unworthy.

Liberty's Edge

northbrb wrote:
i loved monkey grip but not every character i made used it, i only ever used it for specific character concepts, actually in my group i was the only person who used monkey grip ever. we never found it a necessity.

Same here. I had several powergamers in my group, and Monkey Grip still only showed up rarely.

I'd at least like a feat that allows a Fighter to wield a large two-handed weapon with the standard -4 penalty for wielding an oversized weapon. I really, really like GIANT HAMMERS.

Grand Lodge

Gailbraithe wrote:
northbrb wrote:
i loved monkey grip but not every character i made used it, i only ever used it for specific character concepts, actually in my group i was the only person who used monkey grip ever. we never found it a necessity.

Same here. I had several powergamers in my group, and Monkey Grip still only showed up rarely.

I'd at least like a feat that allows a Fighter to wield a large two-handed weapon with the standard -4 penalty for wielding an oversized weapon. I really, really like GIANT HAMMERS.

You can tell how much a person is into final fantasy by the oversizedness of their weapon :)


Something to make the standard vanilla longsword actually worth using for anything besides fluff.

Liberty's Edge

Helaman wrote:
You can tell how much a person is into final fantasy by the oversizedness of their weapon :)

I've actually never played Final Fantasy. You've got the wrong video game.

Here's a hint: Hey! Is Me! Mario!


Helaman wrote:
Gailbraithe wrote:
northbrb wrote:
i loved monkey grip but not every character i made used it, i only ever used it for specific character concepts, actually in my group i was the only person who used monkey grip ever. we never found it a necessity.

Same here. I had several powergamers in my group, and Monkey Grip still only showed up rarely.

I'd at least like a feat that allows a Fighter to wield a large two-handed weapon with the standard -4 penalty for wielding an oversized weapon. I really, really like GIANT HAMMERS.

You can tell how much a person is into final fantasy by the oversizedness of their weapon :)

for me its more that if i have the Str to lift something i want the option to use it. i dont like being told that it is not a weapon for my size.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I want to see as much material as possable for dealing with, fighting and killing spellcasters.


Some thing that I'd like to see (sorry if this repeats for others):

* Non-mystical Martial Arts options.

* Combination attacks. A lot of "if this happens, then you get this". Simplest concept starting with land a hit with a specific damage type and you can make a thematically appropriate combat maneuver (so more feats like Shield Slam).

* Less class-specific archetypes. A lot of the archetypes I've been seeing feel like they could be applied towards a lot of classes, and it's hard to pull out the abilities and try and mesh them with another class when a Player (or a DM making an NPC) wants to have a certain combination.
Side-ways thinking: perhaps a new mechanic that is similar to feats, that can allow interchangeable abilities (similar to feats but it works on a scaling with level type of thing).

* Fleshed out rules (or at least more concrete rulings) for Improvised Weapons. What bonuses and effects can trigger, and what don't, etc. There's a number of questions I have, so I've avoided using them as much as possible in any serious manner (anything more than an encounter flavour thing).

* Rules for Improvised Combat actions. Dirty Trick helps with this a little, and the idea was kind of kicked around with the Gunslinger's Grit recharge mechanic, but I'd like to see it as a new thing that anyone can do in combat at any time.
Tie it to skills to make it so a Rogue or Ranger can have that "combat versatility" thing, and make it so Intelligent Fighters have a fairly serious benefit. Maybe roll a check with DC to get an effect/bonus, but failure means penalty or loss of action.
Make it so there's mechanical benefit to being flavourful in combat. Sure, roleplaying is it's own reward, but there's that little extra joy when you actually cause an effect from doing something fancy in combat.

* Like Words of Power did for Magic, I'd like to see a different method of applying weapons to the game. This can tie in with fleshing out Improvised Weapons, but the idea would be to have a value-system that puts the power of a weapon more into the training of the user.
Instead of simple/martial/exotic weapons, you have Simple/Martial/Exotic training. Instead of dozens of weapons per category (trying to find every "balanced" combination of damage/crit/effect ratio), have the effects based on the user.
Have damage, crit and effects cost "points" (with caps of course), and the training grants a set amount of points to the user. A specific weapon would then simply be an entry for it's base damage type (which can be extended with an effect, of course). Improvised Weapons can be as simple as "treat as having only base points".
Extra things, like being able to change how you allocate your "points" on the fly, or getting bonus points for specific things (or cheaper to spend).
Weapons (even Improvised or Unarmed) are the Tools of the Trade, just like Spells are for Casters. This would be a great analogue to Words of Power.
And I see no reason why it couldn't be used alongside normal weapons: think of it as more "freeform" training in weapons, rather than the current "specific" training.

That's all I've got for now.
It's probably too late for them to pick up any of these ideas if they don't have them already... but I loves me my exhortation.


I expect complaining about Ultimate Combat. Some will be very well thought out, but 99% will be a knee jerk reaction based on one experience and/or disliking the reading.

Sovereign Court

I hope for rules that will give martial characters more versatility.

I expect that we will get lots of options that only continue to emphasize specialization.


I want high level (10+) combat feats that allow martial chars to emulate some of the power of casters.

This and hound master.


LilithsThrall wrote:


I can think of no such real world culture which has not been subjugated by an armor-wearing culture once the two came into contact.

Hmmm. It's almost as though I'm asking for something that could only exist in a fantasy world.

...

Hey, wait a second! It IS a fantasy world! Eureka!

;-)


It's too late, but I do want some Barbarian love, they still don't have enough love.

Less armor, all of the fighting classes are too dependent on it, I don't like that.


Stuff that makes dex based fighters and light weapon users worth it.

Stuff that uses dex and/or wis to damage in melee.

A Samurai with a bonded ancestral weapon instead of a mount.

Options for unarmored monk like ac bonus characters.

A way to use cha instead of wis as a monk.


Dragon78 wrote:
A Samurai with a bonded ancestral weapon instead of a mount.

Please call this the "Gaijin" arch. :)

For my money, Samurai as a Cavalier arch was incredibly (historically) insightful, and made me excited about a trope that had bored me for a very long time.


Why make the Samurai "historically acurate" when most of the classes are not to begin with. It is a fantasy setting and for those of us who like fantasy just wanted a "fantasy samurai" to go with that "fantasy ninja". Besides there are plenty of ancestral swords in japan and there are many legends about magical swords as well.


Dragon78 wrote:
Why make the Samurai "historically acurate" when most of the classes are not to begin with. It is a fantasy setting and for those of us who like fantasy just wanted a "fantasy samurai" to go with that "fantasy ninja". Besides there are plenty of ancestral swords in japan and there are many legends about magical swords as well.

For the record, I wasn't saying they shouldn't use your idea.


Gregg Helmberger wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:


I can think of no such real world culture which has not been subjugated by an armor-wearing culture once the two came into contact.

Hmmm. It's almost as though I'm asking for something that could only exist in a fantasy world.

...

Hey, wait a second! It IS a fantasy world! Eureka!

;-)

Yeah, a fantasy world in which the need for armor is an entrenched requirement of melee classes. The expectations of which are almost built into their levelling (wealth / equipment). So you want a system that renders that expensive stuff that everybody needs irrelevant? How are they going to compensate for the advantage of having all that extra gp to spend on weapons etc.? Or is a loincloth going to be the preferred combat dress? Or should they just be prepared to do without the armor and have that disadvantage in recompense?

*sigh* Sorry, I'm just grumpy today. And stubborn. A number of people have (and not without reason) been chiming in requests for things that, imo, would stretch the system, making far reaching changes to the game (the gearless monk / gearless characters come to mind). Should "game changing" (or is it) stuff be in an "Ultimate Combat" or should it wait for something similar to the old Unearted Arcana which presented alternate systems?

Which brings up "Words of Power" from UM. Curiosity, what do you think? Where should this stuff be located?


R_Chance wrote:


Yeah, a fantasy world in which the need for armor is an entrenched requirement of melee classes. The expectations of which are almost built into their levelling (wealth / equipment). So you want a system that renders that expensive stuff that everybody needs irrelevant? How are they going to compensate for the advantage of having all that extra gp to spend on weapons etc.? Or is a loincloth going to be the preferred combat dress? Or should they just be prepared to do without the armor and have that disadvantage in recompense?

*sigh* Sorry, I'm just grumpy today. And stubborn. A number of people have (and not without reason) been chiming in requests for things that, imo, would stretch the system, making far reaching changes to the game (the gearless monk / gearless characters come to mind). Should "game changing" (or is it) stuff be in an "Ultimate Combat" or should it wait for something similar to the old Unearted Arcana which presented alternate systems?

Which brings up "Words of Power" from UM. Curiosity, what do you think? Where should this stuff be located?

I agree with most of what you said, except for the Words of Power part. It's not really an alternate system, it's more like an added system. A word caster, a vacian-magic caster and a spontaneous caster can all be in the same campaing, if the GM allows it. However, armor as DR and armor as AC cannot be played simultaneously.

While I'm not against alternate systems, I'm against poorly implemented alternate systems. For example, if poorly implemented, armor as DR could easily augment the power gap between the two-weapons fighting style and the two-handed fighting style, and we really don't need that...


R_Chance wrote:
Where should this stuff be located?

Wherever it makes sense.

Ultimate Magic had an alternative magic system to the traditional spell list. This makes sense and is fine.

Ultimate Combat will have alternative combat systems (called shots, Armor as DR, and may be one other) and that's cool, because it directly affects martial combat.

If the Advanced Races Guide has alternative ways to go about doing racial stuff (Such as racial levels and HD for each of the Core races) that would be cool too.

If they made a book that all about alternative systems, then anything goes.

Specifically on Equipment-less Characters: Since Martial Characters are much more dependent on their gear than Casters, so an alterantive system would make sense in Ultimate Combat, but only if that system was not really influenced by magic much, if at all. And it probably wouldn't require much of a stretch in terms of balancing against folks who choose to spend money on magical items by having it contain a base gold cost to advance in w/e.

Silver Crusade

Considering that it's been said that UM was the wrong place to look for support for gearless monks(specifically referring to displeasure that the UM VoP didn't make those characters as feasible as the original VoP), I would certainly hope Ultimate Combat would have something to help that concept.

I would be happy with such a thing being available through an Alternate Options book, if such a book wasn't years away. Right now Ultimate Combat seems like the last opportunity within sight for a lot of the things on a number of folks' martial character wishlists, hence all the hopes being piled on its shoulders.


Mikaze wrote:

Considering that it's been said that UM was the wrong place to look for support for gearless monks(specifically referring to displeasure that the UM VoP didn't make those characters as feasible as the original VoP), I would certainly hope Ultimate Combat would have something to help that concept.

I would be happy with such a thing being available through an Alternate Options book, if such a book wasn't years away. Right now Ultimate Combat seems like the last opportunity within sight for a lot of the things on a number of folks' martial character wishlists, hence all the hopes being piled on its shoulders.

I see your point (about how far off it might be). I enjoy reading alternates (even when I don't use them). I would prefer fully thought out and balanced alternates that can be used without issues or major adjustments to other systems (i.e. magic items, etc.) -- or to have those issues considered with the alternates. I'd like a alternate systems book addressing magic as well as combat options, classes, etc. In any event, it will be interesting to see what UC has (and what it doesn't).


Jeranimus Rex wrote:


Wherever it makes sense.

Ultimate Magic had an alternative magic system to the traditional spell list. This makes sense and is fine.

Ultimate Combat will have alternative combat systems (called shots, Armor as DR, and may be one other) and that's cool, because it directly affects martial combat.

If the Advanced Races Guide has alternative ways to go about doing racial stuff (Such as racial levels and HD for each of the Core races) that would be cool too.

If they made a book that all about alternative systems, then anything goes.

Specifically on Equipment-less Characters: Since Martial Characters are much more dependent on their gear than Casters, so an alterantive system would make sense in Ultimate Combat, but only if that system was not really influenced by magic much, if at all. And it probably wouldn't require much of a stretch in terms of balancing against folks who choose to spend money on magical items by having it contain a base gold cost to advance in w/e.

It could (and has to an extent) been split so far. I'd prefer it to be concentrated and fully fleshed out not bolted on. On the gearless character, I'm not so sure on a money cost to go up. It just seems... too meta-gamey if you will. I suppose the right fluff explanation might make it seem less an obvious balance device. With the gearless monk a vop with spiritual pay back makes sense. Not so much for other characters (unless you expand the vop to all classes I guess).

*edit* Expanding the vop is not too wild in some cases. Historically a lot of militant holy orders knights took an individual vop (even if their orders grew wealthy).


Maerimydra wrote:


I agree with most of what you said, except for the Words of Power part. It's not really an alternate system, it's more like an added system. A word caster, a vacian-magic caster and a spontaneous caster can all be in the same campaing, if the GM allows it. However, armor as DR and armor as AC cannot be played simultaneously.

While I'm not against alternate systems, I'm against poorly implemented alternate systems. For example, if poorly implemented, armor as DR could easily augment the power gap between the two-weapons fighting style and the two-handed fighting style, and we really don't need that...

I haven't looked into WoP as closely as I'd like (too busy with other game related stuff like new classes etc.). I'd agree about poorly imlemented alternate systems, and the problem is it's difficult to put in a game changing alternative without major work to the rest of the game systems.


I mentioned a Words of Power analogue in my long post.

I like the idea of having weapon damage/crit/effects be based on the training of the user, instead of the weapon itself.

You could have a person who has normal proficiencies, who has to conform to the specific stats of the weapons he finds. Then you can have this "WoP" Fighter who can pick up any weapon (or even Improvised Weapons if he trains in that) and get varied effects out of it.

It feels like it could add to the versatility of the non-caster, and still work alongside the normal rules. It also feels like a slightly more complicated and "in the hands of the player" type of mechanic that Words of Power did for spells.
Perfect for a book about advanced add-on options (non-core non-standard options).


R_Chance wrote:

I haven't looked into WoP as closely as I'd like (too busy with other game related stuff like new classes etc.). I'd agree about poorly imlemented alternate systems, and the problem is it's difficult to put in a game changing alternative without major work to the rest of the game systems.

I think WoP is fine, ignoring the Nova combo is pretty balanced.

And the vows as a whole were kinda poorly designed, because they made you take a particularly harsh penalty (Even the more mundane ones like Chastity create an RP strain on the character that doesn't seem worth it.) with little to no benefit. The extra Ki is nice, but the amount obtained is very much not worth it.

I mean hell, even the militant Knight orders that had its memebers take the vow still needed to make enough money to buy Full-plate and high quality weapons.

But that's the thing really, if people are going to take vows, there's always something that they're going to get in return to compensate for that sacrifice, whether it's an organization taking care of their needs such as the case for clergy or magical powers.

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