Need some advice on Druids and companions


Advice

Scarab Sages

Hey everyone!

So, I have two distinct questions today, which are somewhat related. I'm making a Druid for an upcoming Pathfinder game, in which we are going to be starting at level 1. Core and APG are allowed, and there is a possibility of other material being accepted with DM approval.

My questions are these:

1. Has anyone played the "animal shaman" version of the Druid and found it to be worth the sacrifices? I've found very little material on this subject, and I'd be happy to hear an informed opinion on it.

2. In terms of combat, what have people found to be the most effective Animal Companions? Big Cat and Roc seem like fairly obvious choices, but it would be nice to get some first-hand accounts of how effective they actually are. Additionally, does the increased mobility and possibility of flyby attack + grab on the Roc balance it out with the power of Big Cat?

All in all, I'd appreciate any advice or first-hand experience anyone can share on making an effective Druid. This character will be my first Druid, so I need all the help I can get! :-D


I've made, but not played, a Lion Shaman. Looked viable on paper, especially after lv7, when your cat grows up.

Birds are not so great unless everyone can fly, in my experience.

Problem with both is size. Dungeons tends to not be overly Large-Creature friendly.


Captnhaggis wrote:
1. Has anyone played the "animal shaman" version of the Druid and found it to be worth the sacrifices? I've found very little material on this subject, and I'd be happy to hear an informed opinion on it.

What were you planning to sacrifice? You give up little or nothing to become an animal shaman. Mostly, you reduce your shape shifting ability slightly.

Captnhaggis wrote:
2. In terms of combat, what have people found to be the most effective Animal Companions? Big Cat and Roc seem like fairly obvious choices, but it would be nice to get some first-hand accounts of how effective they actually are. Additionally, does the increased mobility and possibility of flyby attack + grab on the Roc balance it out with the power of Big Cat?

A bird will be a nice damage accessory, but they don't do well at flanking & tanking, which are pretty useful functions.

Liberty's Edge

Blueluck wrote:
What were you planning to sacrifice? You give up little or nothing to become an animal shaman. Mostly, you reduce your shape shifting ability slightly

There may be little effect if you are playing in a high-level campaign, but at low levels a Druid can't wait to get Wildshape. Playing from level 1, and having to wait two extra levels to get Wildshape (and even then treating your Druid level as two lower unless taking the shape of your totem)? That is a sacrifice.

At 4th level, I'm a Deinonychus, and you're just plain you. At 6th level, you can now be a Deinonychus (or, for example, a Dire Bear, if you're a Bear Shaman). I've got you beat. I'm a Dire Tiger. At 8th level, you can do Dire Tiger, but I'm already an Allosaurus. At 12th level, you can change into a Large Air Elemental. I can do an Elder Air Elemental. You wind up chasing after a standard Druid's Wildshape forms for most of your adventuring career.

I don't think the Animal Shaman Druid options are really worth it, myself, but YMMV.


Heymitch wrote:
At 4th level, I'm a Deinonychus, and you're just plain you. At 6th level, you can now be a Deinonychus (or, for example, a Dire Bear, if you're a Bear Shaman). I've got you beat. I'm a Dire Tiger. At 8th level, you can do Dire Tiger, but I'm already an Allosaurus. At 12th level, you can change into a Large Air Elemental. I can do an Elder Air Elemental. You wind up chasing after a standard Druid's Wildshape forms for most of your adventuring career.

No, not really.

If an Animal Shaman wildshapes into their chosen animal(Bear Shaman > Bear) they do so as if 2 druid levels higher. At 6th level a regular druid is using BEASTSHAPE II, a Bear Shaman who wildshapes into a BEAR is using BEASTSHAPE III. If the 6th level Bear Shaman wildshapes into anything else, they use Beastshape I.

Regular Druid:
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. (Beastshape I)

At 6th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid's wild shape now functions as Beastshape II.

At 8th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature.(Beastshape III)

Animal Shaman Druid:
At 6th level, a bear shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level -2. If she takes on the form of a bear, she instead uses her druid level +2.


General advice:

Animal companion movement can be problematic. Some are big, some are slow, some can’t climb, some can’t swim, most are not ‘town-friendly’. When making your choice consider this as much as sheer fighting potential because that roc is not following you through the 5’ hallway. You can switch out companions as needed with a 24 hour ritual, but it will get tedious and confusing if done too often.

Druids have a lot of working parts and a lot of options along the way. If you can get 60% of it all working in synergy, you’ll do fine. The other 40% is all gravy for character RP and shoring up the group’s weaknesses.

Liberty's Edge

Daniel Moyer wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
At 4th level, I'm a Deinonychus, and you're just plain you. At 6th level, you can now be a Deinonychus (or, for example, a Dire Bear, if you're a Bear Shaman). I've got you beat. I'm a Dire Tiger. At 8th level, you can do Dire Tiger, but I'm already an Allosaurus. At 12th level, you can change into a Large Air Elemental. I can do an Elder Air Elemental. You wind up chasing after a standard Druid's Wildshape forms for most of your adventuring career.

No, not really.

If an Animal Shaman wildshapes into their chosen animal(Bear Shaman > Bear) they do so as if 2 druid levels higher. At 6th level a regular druid is using BEASTSHAPE II, a Bear Shaman who wildshapes into a BEAR is using BEASTSHAPE III. If the 6th level Bear Shaman wildshapes into anything else, they use Beastshape I.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

The problem is that Beast Shape III allows you to transform into a Huge or a Diminutive animal (also a Small or Medium magical beast, but Wildshape just allows the animal forms).

Even a Dire Bear is Large, not Huge. So, a 6th level Bear Shaman could become a Huge Bear, if one existed. The problem is that the only way you get a Huge Bear is by applying a template or advanced version to a creature. Wildshape functions as Beast Shape except as noted under it's description, so it's limited in the same ways that all spells of the Polymorph subschool are..."Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature". --Core Rulebook p.212.

Essentially, a Bear Shaman's ability to Wildshape into a Bear will always be limited to Beast Shape II (never III), because (currently) all Bears in the game (that do not have a template, such as young or giant) are size Large. Those extra two levels look good on paper, but in game they net you absolutely nothing.

So, yeah, you're a Dire Bear, and I'm a Dire Tiger (and that makes me better than you). You won't be able to assume Huge forms until 10th level, and you won't be a Huge Bear. I can do Huge at level 8. I stand by my original post.


Heymitch wrote:

The problem is that Beast Shape III allows you to transform into a Huge or a Diminutive animal (also a Small or Medium magical beast, but Wildshape just allows the animal forms).

Even a Dire Bear is Large, not Huge. So, a 6th level Bear Shaman could become a Huge Bear, if one existed. The problem is that the only way you get a Huge Bear is by applying a template or advanced version to a creature. Wildshape functions as Beast Shape except as noted under it's description, so it's limited in the same ways that all spells of the Polymorph subschool are..."Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature". --Core Rulebook p.212.

Essentially, a Bear Shaman's ability to Wildshape into a Bear will always be limited to Beast Shape II (never III), because (currently) all Bears in the game (that do not have a template, such as young or giant) are size Large. Those extra two levels look good on paper, but in game they net you absolutely nothing.

So, yeah, you're a Dire Bear, and I'm a Dire Tiger (and that makes me better than you). You won't be...

It should also be noted that animal shaman gain access to polymorph effects a full 2 levels ahead of the standard druid thanks to Totem Transformation. In fact, they're actually stronger shapeshifters for most of their career thanks to this ability. It can be broken up into 1 minute increments, allowing the druid both incredible flexibility & the ability to have a transformative shape in most battles. Regular druids must choose between taking a form and having the ability to communicate with allies.

And before the Totem Transformation is dismissed, it's actually a very strong option until you gain access to beast shape III. Being able to retain your equipment bonuses often outweighs the meager bonuses you gain from the lower level wild shapes. At 2nd level a bear shaman has 3 natural attacks for 2 minutes, which can last for 2 separate battles.

Plus, on top of all that, the shaman gains access to different domains (some of which are much stronger) which favors the caster druid. While in a totem transformation the druid can communicate freely with her animal companion, thus boosting the utility of the beast further.

EDIT: Missed a whole thought.

Liberty's Edge

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

It should also be noted that animal shaman gain access to polymorph effects a full 2 levels ahead of the standard druid thanks to Totem Transformation. In fact, they're actually stronger shapeshifters for most of their career thanks to this ability. It can be broken up into 1 minute increments, allowing the druid both incredible flexibility & the ability to have a transformative shape in most battles. Regular druids must choose between taking a form and having the ability to communicate with allies.

And before the Totem Transformation is dismissed, it's actually a very strong option until you gain access to beast shape III. Being able to retain your equipment bonuses often outweighs the meager bonuses you gain from the lower level wild shapes. At 2nd level a bear shaman has 3 natural attacks for 2 minutes, which can last for 2 separate battles.

Plus, on top of all...

The problem with Totem Transformation is that it doesn't stack with Wildshape. It allows for one of a number of small boosts, one of which is a bite (1d6 for Bear Shaman, less for others) and two claw attacks (1d4, Serpent and Wolf Shaman don't get the claw attacks). I'm not sure that I couldn't do almost as much damage with Shillelagh.

As for Totem Transformation being a strong option until you gain BS III, Beast Shape I can give you 2 talons at 1d8 each, a bite at 1d6 (those three all primary), plus foreclaws at 1d4 (secondary), plus low-light vision, scent, +2 size bonus to Strength, and a +2 Natural Armor bonus. How does that not beat Totem Transformation?

Beast Shape II gives you 2 claws at 2d4 plus grab and a bite at 2d6 plus grab. Plus pounce, low-light vision, scent, +4 size bonus to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus. Sounds better to me. Regretfully, you don't yet get rake...

If I wanted to delay Wildshape, I'd actually rather take a level of Monk, particularly in a higher point-buy game. In a 25 point-buy game, I could afford to go with a 14 in each physical stat, and an 18 in Wisdom. With level bumps and items, I could probably have an adjusted Wisdom of 24 by 8th level. That's +7 to AC (including Touch AC and Flat-Footed AC) and a +7 to CMD, that works even when in Wildshape. Plus you get a +2 to all three saves, a bonus feat like Improved Grapple, and a few extra class skills you might like, such as Acrobatics, Escape Artist, and Stealth. You lose a level of spells, which hurts, but you don't need to lose the caster level...take the trait Magical Knack (Druid).

I generally prefer to play a higher Wisdom Druid anyway, and I'm willing to have a slightly lower Strength to get higher spell DCs, so the level of Monk works fairly well for me. YMMV.

Sovereign Court

I've been contemplating the matter myself. I am inclined to think that an Eagle Shaman would make a wonderful caster druid. All of them do actually because being able to use SNA as a standard action is a huge boost, and imo the biggest selling point of the totem variants by some margin.

Otherwise I think finding out whether your DM will allow a huge version of your totem animal for wildshape purposes would be a big factor for me. I might cite the fact that they can specifically call giant versions of their totem beasties with SNA and have therefore definitely do have an animal to be familiar with. Even so it would be a tough decision I dislike sacrificing flexibility.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Verik Jarrow wrote:

I've been contemplating the matter myself. I am inclined to think that an Eagle Shaman would make a wonderful caster druid. All of them do actually because being able to use SNA as a standard action is a huge boost, and imo the biggest selling point of the totem variants by some margin.

Never understimate the power of a druid built for casting.


Verik Jarrow wrote:
I've been contemplating the matter myself. I am inclined to think that an Eagle Shaman would make a wonderful caster druid. All of them do actually because being able to use SNA as a standard action is a huge boost, and imo the biggest selling point of the totem variants by some margin.

A friend and party-member is playing a casting druid with the Storm domain and Eagle Shaman option. We just hit 4th level, so there's not much material to our test yet, but it promises to be interesting.

Animal Shaman does not say that shapechange doesn't work at 4th level. It only states that it works differently at 6th level.


Heymitch wrote:

Even a Dire Bear is Large, not Huge. So, a 6th level Bear Shaman could become a Huge Bear, if one existed. The problem is that the only way you get a Huge Bear is by applying a template or advanced version to a creature. Wildshape functions as Beast Shape except as noted under it's description, so it's limited in the same ways that all spells of the Polymorph subschool are..."Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature". --Core Rulebook p.212.

Essentially, a Bear Shaman's ability to Wildshape into a Bear will always be limited to Beast Shape II (never III), because (currently) all Bears in the game (that do not have a template, such as young or giant) are size Large. Those extra two levels look good on paper, but in game they net you absolutely nothing.

At the point that you would deny a player a relatively lame difference in ability adjustments +2 STR/-2 DEX/+2 NAC (from large to huge) solely based on the fact that Paizo hasn't printed a HUGE bear in either Bestiary is akin to saying a sable company marine's couldn't fly a hippogrif prior to Bestiary 2, because one (with a Paizo stat block) simply didn't "exist" in Golarion.

If you DM and this is how you'd rule what is essentially a weak adjustment (regardless of RAW) typically selected for theme/concept, I would find a new group... IMMEDIATELY.

EDIT: I also find it overwhelmingly flawed thinking, where the only HUGE animals in the game are then what? Elephants and Dinosaurs? Yea, that's a fun rule, let's pigeonhole every druid into the choice of an elephant or dinosaurs regardless of theme or I don't know, FUN.


Daniel Moyer wrote:

At the point that you would deny a player a relatively lame difference in ability adjustments +2 STR/-2 DEX/+2 NAC (from large to huge) solely based on the fact that Paizo hasn't printed a HUGE bear in either Bestiary is akin to saying a sable company marine's couldn't fly a hippogrif prior to Bestiary 2, because one (with a Paizo stat block) simply didn't "exist" in Golarion.

If you DM and this is how you'd rule what is essentially a weak adjustment (regardless of RAW) typically selected for theme/concept, I would find a new group... IMMEDIATELY.

EDIT: I also find it overwhelmingly flawed thinking, where the only HUGE animals in the game are then what? Elephants and Dinosaurs? Yea, that's a fun rule, let's pigeonhole every druid into the choice of an elephant or dinosaurs regardless of theme or I don't know, FUN.

You're saying that if a DM interpreted the rules as they were presented and attempted to enforce those rules (as presented) to maintain a world view appropriate to his campaign that you would quit the group based entirely on the fact that your DM won't let go outside of the rules because you think it'd be more fun? Yikes.

Animals of different sizes exist as a parallel to the real world. Sure, you don't get HUGE bears, but bigger isn't always better. If you're going for a strict mathematical breakdown, yes, you want the biggest and the baddest. But as it stands, sometimes the druid will have to select medium sized animals if he wants to dungeon delve in "tight squeeze dungeons."

Liberty's Edge

Daniel Moyer wrote:

At the point that you would deny a player a relatively lame difference in ability adjustments +2 STR/-2 DEX/+2 NAC (from large to huge) solely based on the fact that Paizo hasn't printed a HUGE bear in either Bestiary is akin to saying a sable company marine's couldn't fly a hippogrif prior to Bestiary 2, because one (with a Paizo stat block) simply didn't "exist" in Golarion.

If you DM and this is how you'd rule what is essentially a weak adjustment (regardless of RAW) typically selected for theme/concept, I would find a new group... IMMEDIATELY.

EDIT: I also find it overwhelmingly flawed thinking, where the only HUGE animals in the game are then what? Elephants and Dinosaurs? Yea, that's a fun rule, let's pigeonhole every druid into the choice of an elephant or dinosaurs regardless of theme or I don't know, FUN.

My favorite kids books were the Clifford the Big Red Dog series. I hope my DM lets me Wildshape into a Huge Riding Dog, so I don't need to find a new group... IMMEDIATELY.

I pointed out a limitation of the Animal Shaman...sorry if that irked you.

By the way, here's a list of Huge animals you can Wildshape into:

Allosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Behemoth Hippopotamus, Elasmosaurus, Elephant, Giant Gar, Giant Squid, Mastodon, Megatherium, Stegosaurus, and Triceratops. You're right. About half of them are dinosaurs. You may not like that list, but there it is.

Maybe your DM will let you Wildshape into other Huge forms, and maybe he won't. Before you leave your group in a huff, you might want to try discussing it with your DM without issuing an ultimatum. Also, I wouldn't recommend that you threaten to hold your breath until he complies.


It isn't as though the Animal Shaman CAN'T use Beast Shape III, he just can't use it to morph into a Huge Bear. The secondary perk of the ability is that it allows you to use more of the bear's abilities, such as low-light vision, grab, and scent. Sure, you get +4 to STR/natural armor instead of +6, but in the end you're not nearly as big of a target, and you're still perfectly viable.

EDIT: Huh, Beast Shape II lets you use all of those as well... *throws Beast Shape III out the window*


A) Keep it civil, guys. This thread is getting dangerously close to being too angry for the boards.

B) This is an advice thread. Let's keep it directed at that.

That said, I say go with whatever you want and have fun with it. The animal companions are all made to be more or less balenced with eachother; everyone has something to bring to the table.
Here's some silly, yet effective, ideas for you.
Ape. Increase Int at lvl 4, give it Weapon Prof as a feat. Have fun with your gorilla warrior.
Giant Frog. Increase size using Enlarge Person (permanency if desired). Eat your Medium sized opponents.

If going caster, I'd have to agree that Eagle Shaman is the way to go. Peppering foes from the air is a nice little trick, and Eagle is built for it.

Liberty's Edge

Verik Jarrow wrote:

I've been contemplating the matter myself. I am inclined to think that an Eagle Shaman would make a wonderful caster druid. All of them do actually because being able to use SNA as a standard action is a huge boost, and imo the biggest selling point of the totem variants by some margin.

Otherwise I think finding out whether your DM will allow a huge version of your totem animal for wildshape purposes would be a big factor for me. I might cite the fact that they can specifically call giant versions of their totem beasties with SNA and have therefore definitely do have an animal to be familiar with. Even so it would be a tough decision I dislike sacrificing flexibility.

While a DM might or might not let you Wildshape into a Huge version of your totem beast, there is another hurdle for an Eagle Shaman.

The Giant Eagle that you summon isn't an Animal, it's a Magical Beast, so by RAW you couldn't even Wildshape into a Large version of it. Personally, I think that's kind of silly. I think Giant Eagles should be considered Animals, but it's another hurdle for an Eagle Shaman who wants to Wildshape. Plus, every Druid has a slew of creatures on their Summon lists that they can't Wildshape into.

I don't think those archetypes were very well thought out.


Heymitch wrote:

By the way, here's a list of Huge animals you can Wildshape into:

Allosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Behemoth Hippopotamus, Elasmosaurus, Elephant, Giant Gar, Giant Squid, Mastodon, Megatherium, Stegosaurus, and Triceratops. You're right. About half of them are dinosaurs. You may not like that list, but there it is.

Maybe your DM will let you Wildshape into other Huge forms, and maybe he won't. Before you leave your group in a huff, you might want to try discussing it with your DM without issuing an ultimatum. Also, I wouldn't recommend that you threaten to hold your breath until he complies.

Mastodon is an elephant & a dinosaur so to speak. Gar & Squid are both aquatic... good luck using those on a daily basis, though I have heard many a tale of grappling squids who hold their breath. Is there an aquatic AP? Or any aquatic adventure that lasts longer then a single encounter? Half seems more like hippo, squid, elephant(s)... and dinosaurs.

More to the point, after having put an investment into 6 levels of druid, only to be then told I couldn't do something as minor as +2 STR/-2 DEX/+2 NAC (from large to huge) because a huge bear hasn't been printed, I WOULD speak to the DM and ask to rebuild the character, create a new character or as I said previously just find another group. Despite how that may sound, 6 levels in any group I currently play in is a significant investment of my REAL time, as in months. I generally plot out a character quite a few levels in advance (feats, skills, etc.)and expect him to be capable of certain things at certain levels, being as this is something I never realized it would be very bluntly received. If you think me a bad player for that, so be it.

Heymitch wrote:

The Giant Eagle that you summon isn't an Animal, it's a Magical Beast, so by RAW you couldn't even Wildshape into a Large version of it. Personally, I think that's kind of silly. I think Giant Eagles should be considered Animals, but it's another hurdle for an Eagle Shaman who wants to Wildshape. Plus, every Druid has a slew of creatures on their Summon lists that they can't Wildshape into.

I don't think those archetypes were very well thought out.

That's worse than the bear and I agree that they needed much more thought. Personally I was hoping for a variant that wildshaped from 1st level like the PHB2 had, but after the beating the druid took in CORE in the name of balance, I wasn't expecting anything at all. After discussing the shaman variants according to RAW, I would not play one as there seems to be ZERO benefit via the wildshape promise of +2 levels, at least when it comes to bear and eagle. I'm sure the others are just as bad with similar issues.

Sczarni

Just a quick note for you OP...Don't rule out the Constrictor. The grapple effectiveness of the Constrictor animal companion is INSANE!

Liberty's Edge

Daniel Moyer wrote:

Mastodon is an elephant & a dinosaur so to speak. Gar & Squid are both aquatic... good luck using those on a daily basis, though I have heard many a tale of grappling squids who hold their breath. Is there an aquatic AP? Or any aquatic adventure that lasts longer then a single encounter? Half seems more like hippo, squid, elephant(s)... and dinosaurs.

More to the point, after having put an investment into 6 levels of druid, only to be then told I couldn't do something as minor as +2 STR/-2 DEX/+2 NAC (from large to huge) because a huge bear hasn't been printed, I WOULD speak to the DM and ask to rebuild the character, create a new character or as I said previously just find another group. Despite how that may sound, 6 levels in any group I currently play in is a significant investment of my REAL time, as in months. I generally plot out a character quite a few levels in advance (feats, skills, etc.)and expect him to be capable of certain things at certain levels, being as this is something I never realized it would be very bluntly received. If you think me a bad player for that, so be it.

Heymitch wrote:
The Giant Eagle that you summon isn't an Animal, it's a Magical Beast, so by RAW you couldn't even Wildshape into a Large version of it. Personally, I think that's kind of silly. I think Giant Eagles should be considered Animals, but it's another hurdle for an Eagle Shaman who wants to
...

Just to be clear, I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of what Daniel is saying (although I wouldn't leave a group over it).

I've been pointing out where the RAW would or wouldn't allow something, which many DMs are going to enforce.

As to what is fair:
1. I don't think standard (non-archetype) Druids should be able to change into Huge versions of whatever creature they want. They already have a great deal of versatility.

2. I would house rule that Giant Eagle is an Animal, not a Magical Beast, so you could Wildshape into it.

3. I would allow Animal Shamans to Wildshape into Huge versions of their totemic Animals only.

4. If a DM wants to run a campaign where Dinosaurs don't exist, he's eliminated about half of your Huge options. In this case he probably should allow Huge versions of other animals to everyone.

That's what I think is fair, but I think anyone that wants to do an Animal Shaman needs to have a conversation with their DM at the outset about what is allowed.

Also, I'm not sure what Daniel has against Dinosaurs. Check out the Allosaurus in Bestiary 2. Pretty scary...2d6 bite, 2x 1d8 claws, 2x 1d8 rake, all attacks are primary, pounce, 15 ft reach, 50 ft. move...Embrace your inner dinosaur, man!


Heymitch wrote:
Also, I'm not sure what Daniel has against Dinosaurs. Check out the Allosaurus in Bestiary 2. Pretty scary...2d6 bite, 2x 1d8 claws, 2x 1d8 rake, all attacks are primary, pounce, 15 ft reach, 50 ft. move...Embrace your inner dinosaur, man!

LOL, I have nothing against dinosaurs, but I'm a stickler for themes. I think it would be awesome to have a savageland-style druid who exclusively uses dinosaurs as his go to shape or even better yet a lizardman druid.

IMO, the dinosaur thing feels a bit forced, especially when you count the number of huge animals(like we did), though they do provide an alternative to classic ginormous elemental form of doom. *shrug*

EDIT: Continued thought... I don't think dinosaurs are bad, but they do feel a bit out of place. Kind of like, dare I say, guns and psionics.

I would've loved to see more thematic druids that don't rely on 'printed monsters', after all that was their goal I thought. Provide a a simpler to use, generic bonus so players don't cherry pick through the bestiary (or MM). But what I'm thinking is probably more of what Paizo is calling an "archtype", plants, vermin, elemental, etc. Pretty much along the same lines as the Sorcerer Bloodlines.

Liberty's Edge

Daniel Moyer wrote:
I would've loved to see more thematic druids that don't rely on 'printed monsters', after all that was their goal I thought. Provide a a simpler to use, generic bonus so players don't cherry pick through the bestiary (or MM). But what I'm thinking is probably more of what Paizo is calling an "archtype", plants, vermin, elemental, etc. Pretty much along the same lines as the Sorcerer Bloodlines.

I would also have liked to see Vermin as a type that (at least an achetype of) Druids could Wildshape into. It just seems very thematic, especially for a creepy archvillain Druid.


Heymitch wrote:
Daniel Moyer wrote:
I would've loved to see more thematic druids that don't rely on 'printed monsters', after all that was their goal I thought. Provide a a simpler to use, generic bonus so players don't cherry pick through the bestiary (or MM). But what I'm thinking is probably more of what Paizo is calling an "archtype", plants, vermin, elemental, etc. Pretty much along the same lines as the Sorcerer Bloodlines.
I would also have liked to see Vermin as a type that (at least an achetype of) Druids could Wildshape into. It just seems very thematic, especially for a creepy archvillain Druid.

Yes, but its a rules nightmare. You get players leaving one tarantula behind to save his consciousness while the other 9,999 swarm at the enemy.

Sovereign Court

I would argue that since by RAW you can have a Roc - an animal - as an animal companion at medium size, and large size, and the Roc entry is Gargantuan you ought to be able to change into a huge Roc. now admittedly as animal companions their type is not technically animal, but it was before they were called up as animal companions, so they clearly existed as animals at that size.

Also correct me if I am wrong but couldn't a small rider be riding his medium Roc at 1st level? He would have to weigh 43lbs with all gear, but its certainly doable.

Grand Lodge

Verik Jarrow wrote:
Also correct me if I am wrong but couldn't a small rider be riding his medium Roc at 1st level? He would have to weigh 43lbs with all gear, but its certainly doable.

He certainly could. I've seen such a character run in PFS.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Heymitch wrote:
2. I would house rule that Giant Eagle is an Animal, not a Magical Beast, so you could Wildshape into it.

Giant Eagles are considered Magical Beasts because they have Human level intelligence. If you want to make them animals, you need to adjust thier Int and skills appropriately.

Liberty's Edge

Heymitch wrote:
2. I would house rule that Giant Eagle is an Animal, not a Magical Beast, so you could Wildshape into it.
LazarX wrote:
Giant Eagles are considered Magical Beasts because they have Human level intelligence. If you want to make them animals, you need to adjust thier Int and skills appropriately.

I get that, and I would adjust their INT to Animal INT. I've always thought it strange that the giant versions of eagles are intelligent magical beasts, whereas every other giant size version of an animal remains an animal. I think the whole intelligent eagle thing in D&D/Pathfinder is just a holdover from the Lord of the Rings.

Going back to the Animal Shaman issues, it gets pretty ridiculous for Eagle Shamans and Wild Shape:

Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, an eagle shaman's wild shape ability functions at her druid level -2. If she takes on the form of an eagle or roc, she instead uses her druid level +2.

So, at 6th level, she can Wild Shape into an eagle or roc as an 8th level Druid. What does that mean? Did the designers envision that an eagle shaman could become a Small Eagle (the only Size eagle that's listed in the books as an animal)? Anyone non-archetype Druid could do that at 4th level. Did they mean that they could be a Huge Roc (even though the listed entry in the Bestiary is Gargantuan? If so, can any druid become a Medium Tiger at 4th level (I never thought so)? What advantage was that "druid level +2" intended to confer? It must be that you can Wild Shape into a Small Eagle at Fly at 80' (instead of 60') at 6th level. Which would seem to be a really puny advantage, especially in exchange for what they give up.

I think the APG designers sort of phoned in the Druid archetypes...


Heymitch wrote:
Daniel Moyer wrote:
I would've loved to see more thematic druids that don't rely on 'printed monsters', after all that was their goal I thought. Provide a a simpler to use, generic bonus so players don't cherry pick through the bestiary (or MM). But what I'm thinking is probably more of what Paizo is calling an "archtype", plants, vermin, elemental, etc. Pretty much along the same lines as the Sorcerer Bloodlines.
I would also have liked to see Vermin as a type that (at least an achetype of) Druids could Wildshape into. It just seems very thematic, especially for a creepy archvillain Druid.

Vermin shape etc is in Lords of Chaos book :D


Earthbeard wrote:
Heymitch wrote:
Daniel Moyer wrote:
I would've loved to see more thematic druids that don't rely on 'printed monsters', after all that was their goal I thought. Provide a a simpler to use, generic bonus so players don't cherry pick through the bestiary (or MM). But what I'm thinking is probably more of what Paizo is calling an "archtype", plants, vermin, elemental, etc. Pretty much along the same lines as the Sorcerer Bloodlines.
I would also have liked to see Vermin as a type that (at least an achetype of) Druids could Wildshape into. It just seems very thematic, especially for a creepy archvillain Druid.
Vermin shape etc is in Lords of Chaos book :D

My response to that would to apply first the size template advances in the Bestiary Book.

This is our solution to my 6th level Wolf Shaman that i started playing at 1st level.

Liberty's Edge

Soulless wrote:

My response to that would to apply first the size template advances in the Bestiary Book.

This is our solution to my 6th level Wolf Shaman that i started playing at 1st level.

I agree that Animal Shaman need to be able to apply the Giant creature template in order to gain any real advantage in their totem forms (despite the prohibition on templates to polymorph effects), but I would limit the use of this template only to Animal Shaman, and only when Wild Shaping into their totem animals.


Heymitch wrote:
Wildshape + Bear stuff

I'd definitely question the GM who complained about someone wildshaping into a medium bear, even though the only bears listed in the bestiary are grizzlies and dire bears. Especially since your statistics are determined by your beast shape I level, and you can see what your bite/claw/claw damage would be for an animal of your size.

I mean, black bears would be medium creatures. I've seen those before. Been pretty close to one (domesticated display in Tennessee), and I'd have to give someone a weird look if they said that a druid could turn into a grizzly bear, but a smaller bear was out of the picture.

Besides, that sort of logic counters the design goal of Pathfinder's polymorph style spells. They complained that polymorph spells got stronger as more creatures were published, so they wanted them to be based on the spell. As we have it now, you could turn into everything from a house cat to a dire lion with an appropriate version of the beast shape spell, without needing creature stats for them.

Heck, all you'd really need to know was which natural attacks the animal would get. Unlike in 3E, you don't actually take the stats of the animal, just the body type.

The polymorph school says you can turn into creatures with Templates, which avoids the problems that could crop up by gaining a lot of special abilities off of a list ("Hey, I want to turn into a pseudonatural grizzly bear that has low-light vision, darkvision, a bite, a claw, four tentacle attacks, grab, constrict, and poison").

But a medium size bear seems legit to me.


Ashiel wrote:

The polymorph school says you can't turn into creatures with Templates, which avoids the problems that could crop up by gaining a lot of special abilities off of a list ("Hey, I want to turn into a pseudonatural grizzly bear that has low-light vision, darkvision, a bite, a claw, four tentacle attacks, grab, constrict, and poison").

But a medium size bear seems legit to me.

Sorry, just noticed the typo, and it was too late to edit it, so please accept this as an amendment.

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