How can i create a martial character to achieve a similar level of power as a caster?

[Mark Hoover 330]

Y'know, one of the things I've seen, at least anecdotally at my own tables, is that martials have one thing full casters don't in terms of combat capability. Stamina.

My players complain to me all the time that crafting attack spells into consumable magic items or even Wondrous items is dumb because the Save DCs are so low. As such they're limited to anywhere from 1-5 big "nukes" they can fire off in combat per day.

A fighter with a greatsword and all the right feats is just as effective on attack no 6 as they were on no 1, while the wizard has just run out of the heavy damage dealers in their bag of tricks.

But then, my players ALSO complain to me that there are too many fights/day in my games. Often times I might run a single day of adventure - exploration, dungeon hacking and such, that involves 4-8 fights, a few traps or hazards, and perhaps a couple of encounters where my INTENT would be they resolve through social/skill challenge, though that isn't always the case.

The thing is, I base the number of encounters in my games not on the most, but rather the average damage PCs can reliably do at any given time. I know that I've handed out a wand of Molten Orb to a PC caster for example, and I know it's far from being out of charges. His character has a high Dex so I can reliably count on the wand hitting most of the time and doing 7 pts of damage (unless their foes are immune to fire).

So I'll total up what all the PCs can do, on average, based on their attacks, and figure that whatever CR monster has an average HP count around that is an equal threat to their APL. In other words if the Bloodrager, Barbarian, Wizard and Druid can combine to do about 70 HP on average in a round with spells/abilities not likely to run out over the course of 8 fights, then I can comfortably expect them to take out 1 CR 6 monster (average HP of 19)/round without expending hardly any resources.

Now, if they don't ID the monster in front of them, or the wizard just decides to unload or whatever, then they might burn through resources against an easy fight that they might need against, say, the one fight of the 8 I have planned that involves a young adult black dragon ambushing them in a swamp. THAT's why you have wands of Cure Serious Wounds in the hands of the druid as well as a Bloodrager and a Barbarian that the wizard gave a Swim speed to.

[Matthew Downie]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

But then, my players ALSO complain to me that there are too many fights/day in my games. Often times I might run a single day of adventure - exploration, dungeon hacking and such, that involves 4-8 fights, a few traps or hazards, and perhaps a couple of encounters where my INTENT would be they resolve through social/skill challenge, though that isn't always the case.

That's one of the main issues with caster/martial balancing - it takes a lot of fights per day to balance the stamina of a martial against the flexibility of a (competent) caster.

Having that number of fights is:
(a) A bit of a grind.
(b) Hard to balance. Few GMs are going to build encounters around an accurate calculation of the capabilities of the party.
(c) Hard to enforce. Not every type of adventure plotline revolves around a tight deadline, so why wouldn't the party go back to town and rest after two battles?

[Avaricious]

CommanderC2121 wrote:

Maybe as an aside, what would be needed for any martial class in general to allow it to reach a similar power level as casters? What are they lacking that casters arent?

"Versatility"

That's the meat of the issue. I'd try and analog the class features of martials and casters. In essence, your abilities and their magic are kinda the same. Features of a class. Case in point, consider a caster's daily spell slots; many martials have abilities that are also daily slots. Fighter is not one of them... Your Barbarian's Rage feature that you played, for example. Except, as martials, they would be combat, and typically melee, focused. Flip the switch for Ranged Martials. Its essentially the same thing. Focus towards dropping single (again, typically) targets.

Consider Inquisitor or Warpriest to dip your toes into that hybrid pool. They can go Nova on targets in specific context, but they also have a lot of flexibility besides attacking, in and out of combat.

The caster's viability is that their "dailies" can function for roles besides "Roll vs AC" and bend the fight. To change the parameter of a given encounter, heck, even the campaign, to one that is better suited for the Caster/the Party. STR as a primary attribute has only so many applications out of combat/pressure besides intimidating the story's cast of NPCs.

You must match their versatility with focus. As in, double down.

You have to match their focus on their casting stat.

As Caster needs only their casting attribute. DEX and CON are really trivial to a caster for survivability if: they can't be seen or reached. Flying and invisibility are just some of the options in their bag of shenanigans. Even then, they would have invested into those two key stats, but expect their main attribute to be boosted permanently into the twenties/thirties or higher because it directly governs their effectiveness.

You, however, need said CON to survive in the line, and DEX to mitigate some evasion. Typical damage attribute for a Martial is going to STR for both to hit and to DMG.

Its a game of a Caster's Single Ability Dependency (SAD) vs most Martials' reliance on Multiple Ability Dependency (MAD).

Asides from being a ranged combatant, as you seem to favor melee thus far, is to get away from that.

Here's a more focused approach for some that may or may not appeal to you:

DEX to hit and damage is not just limited to Gunslingers. The downside, I hope you like Rapiers and or Scimitars for fencing/slashing grace. Oddly enough, there are so many fun slashing weapons you can employ for this.

Swashbuckler comes to mind, but a Magus (Kensai) is that hybrid that you can pursue. Likewise, a Paladin (Virtuous Bravo) is another way to play. And... while this can bridge the gap damage-wise, unless you play a class loaded with features not highlighting combat (Skill slots), you can never really close that gap in versatility.

Even that Virtuous Bravo of a Paladin earlier, would have some flavor. You're still a FULL-BAB Martial. You have many of the Paladin's defensive abilities. Ironically, the archetype takes the Caster out of Paladin. Tier 4 is effectively Tier None compared to aforementioned Inquisitor and Warpriest. This will allow you to focus on being a Martial, with a lot of the magical defensive/utility suite of the Paladin intact. DEX becomes your life for accuracy and damage, allowing you to secondary into CON (those two abilities likewise are key SAVE stats, with your DEX focus counteracting your weak Reflex). You can now lose STR and WIS (no more casting!) to fuel them. CHA would be a tertiary concern. Oh, and the Paladin laughs at most Will Save applications, which is one of its strong SAVEs to begin with. Oh... a potential Animal Companion that you don't need to ride, and if anything, can set you up for wonderful Flanks (an Axe-Beak that has Smite Evil and a built-in Celestial Template ain't the best, but it ain't bad for example). Losing the mercies kind of hurts... but hey, Smite Evil is still there, as is Detect Evil, and man are they handy in campaigns... unless you're those guys.

A Virtuous Bravo Paladin of Sarenrae weaving around with a flaming scimitar, there's some poetry in that. And now, it has crunch to back up that fluff.

Magus would allow you to be another single-target NOVA character, particularly if you can stack Kensai and Words of Power to turn every spell slot you have into a Spellstrike nuke delivered via precision poke. You only need 16 INT. Everything else would go into DEX. This would be the epitome of a glass cannon firing canister at base contact range. Being an Evocation specialist would also free up the other Casters to pursue Transmutation/Conjuration for example for variety. Unless its an on-table DPS olympics y'all are after.

Do not look at the size of the dice, but the size of bonuses on either side of said dice.

Getting back on track, versatility is gonna be nigh impossible to match against an equivalent player, and may I say that comparison is the killer of joy. Find defined roles, and hyper-focus into them.

Find your niche that you wish to fulfill for your party in combat (single-target murder), social encounters (bluff vs diplo... a knowledge field), and general adventuring (survival... disable device). I'd expect the Arcane to know Knowledge: Arcana, the Divine Religion (and both Planes, prolly History), and the Rogue-likes Local, but maybe you could be the Dungeoneering expert, and there's a lot of monsters there to know. Perform them as best as you're able, and encourage your party to support you in this by either allowing you to become the soloist in a given field or augmenting you in said role (buffs, etc). This way your successful and failed rolls directly correspond to party success and failure. That's the making of a team. One that has horrible flaws mind you ("What do you mean we don't have a Plan B?!"), but lack of dependency wouldn't be one ^_^

P.S. In the long run, that Unchained Monk of yours would've been better than any level equivalent summon at duels both offensively and defensively, and the Druid's AoEs outside of battlefield control would taper off as the CR of the opponents you face rose and you encounter enemies with resistances and/or magical equipment...

[Derklord]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Actually martials are generally more powerful than casters at first level.

It depends on the casters and the campaign, but Color Spray and Sleep are ridiculous at first level.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Y'know, one of the things I've seen, at least anecdotally at my own tables, is that martials have one thing full casters don't in terms of combat capability. Stamina.

(...)
A fighter with a greatsword and all the right feats is just as effective on attack no 6 as they were on no 1, while the wizard has just run out of the heavy damage dealers in their bag of tricks.

There's two problems here: First, some casters also have unlimited abilities as well (hexes, an Eidolon, or wildshape are just as effective in the 6th fight as well), and second, casters have the ability to change the game. They can teleport, stealth, fly, or burrow past enemies. They have spells to rest even in dangerous areas. They have spells that last entire dungeons (it's kinda hard to make a dungeon without obviously metagame-driven anti-caster-stuff that sees 10min/level buffs run out).

[Arachnofiend]

Re: The Unchained Dex Monk, if you're still playing that character you should look into retraining things so that you have either Outslug Style (qualify for it via Dirty Fighting, NOT Combat Expertise) or Jabbing Style. These are your choices for keeping up as a dex monk, they're strong feat chains for damage and are mutually exclusive with what strength monks use (dragon style). Jabbing Style is more damage, but Outslug comes online earlier and the non-damage benefits are better IMO.

[Derklord]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Outslug Style (qualify for it via Dirty Fighting, NOT Combat Expertise)

Dirty Fighting doesn't count for Outslug Style, only for Improved <Maneuver> feats and followup feats of of those.

Arachnofiend wrote:

Outslug comes online earlier

Come again? You need two prereq-feats for Outslug Style, and Outslug Weave/Sprint also require Lunge, which has a BAB requirement of +6. That's 5th/9th/11th level for the three feats, compared to Jabbing Style's 1st/7th/9th.

Lastly, you can't combine a 5-feet-step with any kind of other movement, which means you can have most of the benefits of Lunge and Outslug Sprint with Flying Kick.