Could we not make this a class ability of a Gunslinger? It seems like an unnatural rule that they're the only ones that would think of hitting someone with the butt of their gun.
agreed pistol whip. buttstroke should be a 1st level class feature
Could we not make this a class ability of a Gunslinger? It seems like an unnatural rule that they're the only ones that would think of hitting someone with the butt of their gun.
It's not that they're the only ones to think of it, it's just that using muskets/pistols as clubs of varying sizes can be awkward for most people, as well as it not being the actual purpose of the weapon.
It's not to say you couldn't do it anyways! Typically most people would just use the stats for an improvised weapon with the appropriate damage die depending on size, but would incur the normal attack penalty as a result. However I think the grit ability is simply be there to 'simulate' brief moments when the gunslinger has to rely on that improvised attack to make ready his escape, by dealing the extra damage as appropriate as well as being more accurate with the swing itself, though i do believe it should at the very least be a lvl 1 grit ability.
actually old single shot pistols were deliberately designed and reinforced for the use as a melee weapon. And the Rifle butt stroke is a combat maneuver taught in armies as early as the Napoleonic era, the buttstroke and bayonet were interchangeable in close in fighting once armies clashed and ammo was expended, so its less of an improvised tactic and more of a secondary attack.
Once fire arms move into more modern era, (like revolvers) the pistols were so much designed for that anymore with more working/moving parts and such. but older ones definately were.
Rifles have been and still are (with the exception of the modern m4, which technically is no longer a rifle its a carbine and is very ill suited for either bayonet or buttstroking)
So i wouldnt call it an improvised attack, and the gunslinger should just get it as part of his training. it should be required to be a improvised attack by a non gunslinger, however.
The fact that they are using black powder, and being a history major, I would say that yes they would be as good using their weapon as a club as much, if not more so. than using it as a firearm. Often, when using what are in essence one shot weapons a person would fire then, barring a bayonet, would flip the weapon around and go to town on the guy he probably missed in the first place's head with the butt of his gun. Almost every example of a black powder weapon that exist has cracks and fractures from being used in such a way if it has seen actual battle. That is the purpose of the rifle drills in basic training today is to learn to use your weapon as a club. In short it should be a class feature from 1st on.
Actually, the US army still teaches basic bayonet combat, including how to use the butt of an M16 in close combat. I almost used that training when someone failed to halt when I was pulling security duity during a field exercise (I did not have live ammo).
I would personally make this a free class ability for the gunslinger and tie the ability to the Catch off Guard feat for everyone else.
See though, these are all examples of what training there has been/was for using a firearm as a melee weapon after the weapons themselves had become commonplace, when it would be expected for a soldier to keep a hold of their firearm much in the way as they had when initially firing it and jabbing and swinging with the butt end by itself or thrusting forward with the muzzle if a bayonet was plugged/fixed.
Yet back during the time when guns were much rarer (as would be the case in Golarion and many other settings)where the weapons are few and far between, let alone not arming entire armies it could possibly be seen that most soldiers would either abandon the weapon in favor of a traditional melee weapon, or to turn the rifle over and grasp it by it's barrel to use it as a large club and to swing it almost akin to a modern day baseball bat, which of course would be far more unwieldy than to use the tactics found in later periods.
kriegs, the weapons they are suggesting for use in the game aren't arquebus's or hand cannons, or match locks, presumably alkenstar has already gone through the preliminary phases of 'developing firearms' to get to the ones used in the rules, which are around the 1800s era type weapons.
With that said, guns in the 1660s-1700s were all already designed with the secondary melee purpose in mind. so there is no reason (especially with their listed weight and description) not to assume they are prefectly capable and designed for melee use.
See though, these are all examples of what training there has been/was for using a firearm as a melee weapon after the weapons themselves had become commonplace, when it would be expected for a soldier to keep a hold of their firearm much in the way as they had when initially firing it and jabbing and swinging with the butt end by itself or thrusting forward with the muzzle if a bayonet was plugged/fixed.
Yet back during the time when guns were much rarer (as would be the case in Golarion and many other settings)where the weapons are few and far between, let alone not arming entire armies it could possibly be seen that most soldiers would either abandon the weapon in favor of a traditional melee weapon, or to turn the rifle over and grasp it by it's barrel to use it as a large club and to swing it almost akin to a modern day baseball bat, which of course would be far more unwieldy than to use the tactics found in later periods.
Which is what led to adding axe blades to pistols and rifles, attaching pistols into the hilts of swords, daggers, punching daggers (which had two pistol barrels alongside the blade with seperate triggers), and other similar combination weapons.
What I'm trying to say is that it should be part of the rules for the weapons themselves and not something just gunslingers have. A fighter who specializes in rifles doesn't learn to do it while a gunslinger does? Its a very un-natural flowing rule.
fighters get extra feats, fighter can take a feat to do it.
the point of what the Dev's are trying to get at is, guns are rare mysterious and dangerous, anyone can pick one up, point and pull the trigger, but the gunslinger is the master of over comming the weapons short comings. If you make the gun better it's self there is no reason to have a gunslinger class, as the fighter will just carry it and choosing a fighter with guns would be superior because they get a feat every level.
That is clearly not the point. We/they are not trying to make something new and cool for the fighter.