Was Freedom of Movement ever clarified by any developer?

[Razz]

Has anyone on WotC's team or here at Paizo's ever actually clarified the age old debate of the Freedom of Movement spell? Or is that war just going to go on forever?

What exactly can it stop from impeding your movement? My interpretation has been anything "designed" to stop or impede movement, but anything you're simply walking over or around doesn't count, and neither do obstacles you can't ever phase through anyway (like doors, pillars, and walls).

Armor isn't designed to impede movement, so I ruled that out of Freedom of Movement. Tanglefoot bags, however, are. Undergrowth is something you're moving over or through and isn't trying to impede you, it's more of an obstacle. Now an entanglement spell is consciously trying to impede you, so it counts against that.

Strong winds and water I've explained being counted simply because you're not stepping over or around it, but rather it is affecting your whole person and is inherently restrictive because of water's resistance or the wind's slowing down effect. Some would argue if that would make one immune to bull rush (or possibly drag and reposition) because those are not impeding movements, they're changing direction of movement. Though the act of being bull rushed, some would say, is an impediment to movement because your character is actively trying to resist from being moved, but I believe it means you're just being moved and not being impeded from moving, the creature becomes more of an "obstacle" moving you away and not really a "grapple trying to hold you down and impede movement completely". I doubt Freedom of Movement would stop a rolling boulder from smashing into you, likewise with a bull rushing giant.

Squeezing through tight spaces I did not allow, it's not designed to impede movement, it's an obstacle, just like one couldn't walk through a door "impeding" their movement.

So those are my interpretations. I just wish there was actual clarification!

[wraithstrike]

Razz wrote:

Has anyone on WotC's team or here at Paizo's ever actually clarified the age old debate of the Freedom of Movement spell? Or is that war just going to go on forever?

What exactly can it stop from impeding your movement? My interpretation has been anything "designed" to stop or impede movement, but anything you're simply walking over or around doesn't count, and neither do obstacles you can't ever phase through anyway (like doors, pillars, and walls).

Armor isn't designed to impede movement, so I ruled that out of Freedom of Movement. Tanglefoot bags, however, are. Undergrowth is something you're moving over or through and isn't trying to impede you, it's more of an obstacle. Now an entanglement spell is consciously trying to impede you, so it counts against that.

Strong winds and water I've explained being counted simply because you're not stepping over or around it, but rather it is affecting your whole person and is inherently restrictive because of water's resistance or the wind's slowing down effect. Some would argue if that would make one immune to bull rush (or possibly drag and reposition) because those are not impeding movements, they're changing direction of movement. Though the act of being bull rushed, some would say, is an impediment to movement because your character is actively trying to resist from being moved, but I believe it means you're just being moved and not being impeded from moving, the creature becomes more of an "obstacle" moving you away and not really a "grapple trying to hold you down and impede movement completely". I doubt Freedom of Movement would stop a rolling boulder from smashing into you, likewise with a bull rushing giant.

Squeezing through tight spaces I did not allow, it's not designed to impede movement, it's an obstacle, just like one couldn't walk through a door "impeding" their movement.

So those are my interpretations. I just wish there was actual clarification!

I thought it was meant to bypass anything that could stop you from moving such as grappling, hold person, paralysis, stand still feat, an things like that.

[Oliver McShade]

Razz wrote:

Has anyone on WotC's team or here at Paizo's ever actually clarified the age old debate of the Freedom of Movement spell? Or is that war just going to go on forever?

What exactly can it stop from impeding your movement? My interpretation has been anything "designed" to stop or impede movement, but anything you're simply walking over or around doesn't count, and neither do obstacles you can't ever phase through anyway (like doors, pillars, and walls).

Armor isn't designed to impede movement, so I ruled that out of Freedom of Movement. Tanglefoot bags, however, are. Undergrowth is something you're moving over or through and isn't trying to impede you, it's more of an obstacle. Now an entanglement spell is consciously trying to impede you, so it counts against that.

Strong winds and water I've explained being counted simply because you're not stepping over or around it, but rather it is affecting your whole person and is inherently restrictive because of water's resistance or the wind's slowing down effect. Some would argue if that would make one immune to bull rush (or possibly drag and reposition) because those are not impeding movements, they're changing direction of movement. Though the act of being bull rushed, some would say, is an impediment to movement because your character is actively trying to resist from being moved, but I believe it means you're just being moved and not being impeded from moving, the creature becomes more of an "obstacle" moving you away and not really a "grapple trying to hold you down and impede movement completely". I doubt Freedom of Movement would stop a rolling boulder from smashing into you, likewise with a bull rushing giant.

Squeezing through tight spaces I did not allow, it's not designed to impede movement, it's an obstacle, just like one couldn't walk through a door "impeding" their movement.

So those are my interpretations. I just wish there was actual clarification!

The Whole point of Freedom of Movement, was to let you move freely.

So you could fight underwater, without being hindered.
So you was not bound by Web spells, and latter entangle spells.

The opposite and counter for Freedom of Movement, is the Slow spell.

[kyrt-ryder]

Oliver McShade wrote:

The opposite and counter for Freedom of Movement, is the Slow spell.

You sure you aren't thinking of Slow vs Haste? I'm not seeing any reference to Slow at all in Freedom of Movement

[Kierato]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Oliver McShade wrote:

The opposite and counter for Freedom of Movement, is the Slow spell.

You sure you aren't thinking of Slow vs Haste? I'm not seeing any reference to Slow at all in Freedom of Movement

+1

[Oliver McShade]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Oliver McShade wrote:

The opposite and counter for Freedom of Movement, is the Slow spell.

You sure you aren't thinking of Slow vs Haste? I'm not seeing any reference to Slow at all in Freedom of Movement

Ya its late, and am scatterbrained tonight.... Have no clue why i said that Slow was a counter (must have been thinking of haste). What i get for writing at 2 am in the morning.

[Razz]

Oliver McShade wrote:

The Whole point of Freedom of Movement, was to let you move...

Well I doubt it was intended to let you

1) Ignore armor speed reduction
2) Ignore moving over dense rubble or debris
3) Ignore moving over undergrowth...do bushes just "move" away from you?
4) Ignore small passages (squeezing through a tight crevice is an impediment to movement...do you slide through like an ooze?)

[Jason Nelson]

When in doubt, follow one simple rule:

It says what it does and it does what it says.

No more, no less. You try to start imagining what else it might potentially affect, or trying to apply "logic" and "realism" to a game-mechanical spell... that way lies madness.

Clearly it doesn't just make you super-slippery, since it also affects poisons that paralyze you, or mental compulsions that convince you that you can't move. Don't try to rationalize what else you might be able to rationalize the spell into doing.

It lists its effects. Those are the effects that it has. And, for the record, they are pretty sweet effects, to the point where this spell is almost mandatory in a lot of adventures. The spell isn't and never has been underpowered. Don't try to make it do more than it does; it already does plenty.

[Razz]

Yes, but there has been raging debates for close to a decade and not one game designer stepped in to reword it. It's ridiculous.

What we've decided on was that something has to actively try to hold you down for FoM to work. Paralyzation, grappling, water resistance are all things actively trying to impede your movement. Being buried under rubble, dense rubble, natural overgrowth, thin passages, being bound with manacles or rope, wearing armor, etc. are all not active restraints.

[BigNorseWolf]

Razz wrote:

Yes, but there has been raging debates for close to a decade and not one game designer stepped in to reword it. It's ridiculous.

What we've decided on was that something has to actively try to hold you down for FoM to work. Paralyzation, grappling, water resistance are all things actively trying to impede your movement. Being buried under rubble, dense rubble, natural overgrowth, thin passages, being bound with manacles or rope, wearing armor, etc. are all not active restraints.

Why is water active but a bush passive?

[Mistwalker]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Razz wrote:

Yes, but there has been raging debates for close to a decade and not one game designer stepped in to reword it. It's ridiculous.

What we've decided on was that something has to actively try to hold you down for FoM to work. Paralyzation, grappling, water resistance are all things actively trying to impede your movement. Being buried under rubble, dense rubble, natural overgrowth, thin passages, being bound with manacles or rope, wearing armor, etc. are all not active restraints.

Why is water active but a bush passive?

Aren't manacles or rope active restraints?

[Aelryinth]

You could argue plants are living obstructions, and are no different then walking through a crowd.

==Aelryinth

[Stubs McKenzie]

And why is pinning active but being tied up passive when the wording is exactly the same for both.

[Snorter]

No force can impede you, so gravity can no longer keep you attached to the planet.

Don't forget to send a postcard!

[Razz]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Why is water active but a bush passive?

Water is surrounding you and actively against you moving freely within it.

Plus it was actually specified.

As for the plants thing, bushes/vines/etc. are no different than a standing creature. Would an orc standing in your way down a 5 ft. hall be ignored via FoM? No, so neither would a bush. Now if the bush were animated, via animate objects or entanglement, then it would be ignored.

Mistwalker wrote:

Aren't manacles or rope active restraints?

Manacles aren't actively maneuvering itself to hold you down. It's just there, attached and worn on your body, like armor is. The same with ropes. If the manacles/rope were animated and tried to actively pursue and tie you down, it'd fail because the spell specifically states it stops magical impediments/grapples/etc., anything actively trying to hold you down.

Stubs McKenzie wrote:

And why is pinning active but being tied up passive when the wording is exactly the same for both.

See above.

[Troubleshooter]

I think this entry is written to be limited. When it says it 'allows you to move and attack normally, even under the effects of magic such as --" I think that means that its SPECIFIC effect is to allow you to move normally under the effects of magic. I do not think that it is meant to be interpreted that it allows you to move normally under all effects, including magic.

The only reason it includes water, which is nonmagical, is because it specifically says so.

Consequences of open interpretation include:
* Ignoring Armor Check Penalties, thereby also ignoring all effects of nonproficiency (apply ACP to attack rolls)
* Ignoring reduced movement speeds for armor (meaning that every character with FoM should wear full platemail because why not)
* Ignoring Arcane Spell Failure
* Suddenly you ignore buoyancy and gravity, meaning that you fall to the bottom of a body of water unable to rise or to fall slowly into the air
* Alternately, you lose or gain buoyancy / gravity selectively, depending on whether you consider them to be 'hindering' your movement at the time. This is also overpowered, since it gives FoM a free Levitation spell, and allows you to rise / fall faster than your movement speed would allow underwater (though with falling penalties. Maybe).
* All terrain effects are now ignored.
* Character may phase through stone walls.

The strict interpretation allows the spell to do what it needs to do -- negate grapples and bonds, operate normally underwater, and negate impeding magic -- without tearing out the balance of the game and causing a lot of confusing headaches.

[Troubleshooter]

Or moving and attacking while dead.

Dead like this horse that I am now beating.

[Maddigan]

Razz wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Why is water active but a bush passive?

Water is surrounding you and actively against you moving freely within it.

Plus it was actually specified.

As for the plants thing, bushes/vines/etc. are no different than a standing creature. Would an orc standing in your way down a 5 ft. hall be ignored via FoM? No, so neither would a bush. Now if the bush were animated, via animate objects or entanglement, then it would be ignored.

Mistwalker wrote:

Aren't manacles or rope active restraints?

Manacles aren't actively maneuvering itself to hold you down. It's just there, attached and worn on your body, like armor is. The same with ropes. If the manacles/rope were animated and tried to actively pursue and tie you down, it'd fail because the spell specifically states it stops magical impediments/grapples/etc., anything actively trying to hold you down.

Stubs McKenzie wrote:

And why is pinning active but being tied up passive when the wording is exactly the same for both.

See above.

The spell states you can attack normally with bludgeoning and slashing weapons under water. It does not give you the ability to walk on water or move at your full speed. So you still make swim checks and thus swim at quarter to half speed. If Freedom of Movement made moving in water like moving normally, you would fall a long, long ways if you ever got Freedom of Movement when you dropped to the bottom of whatever body of water you were in.

It would be nice if someone gave a real thorough description of this spell and what it effects.

[Kaiyanwang]

And that's why any "lol you are immune" effect should be avopided, other than puts skills ashame.

A simple list of bonuses (see mind blank, wich has immunities too, but of well defined effects) could be far better both for balance and clarity in play.

Say, half caster level (or CL or whatever) to escape artist and CMD vs grapple, ignore underwater combat restriction rules could be a start.

[Turin the Mad]

As posted above, freedom of movement does exactly what it says.

It doesn't do a thing against combat maneuvers other than grapple (and by extension pin). If you are grappled or pinned and you gain freedom of movement you are automatically successful in what ever means are used to escape the pin and grapple. However, you must still spend the appropriate actions to do so. Automatic success does not equate to free actions by means of freedom of movement.

You can move and melee normally while underwater. This element is very very clear.

You ignore paralysis, solid fog, slow and web as well magic that usually impedes movement.

Movement is the operative phrase, and magic is the "co-operative phrase", thus encompassing spell-like and supernatural abilities but not extraordinary abilities. Thus regular webs from spiders the spell does nothing against. freedom of movement does not help with encumbrance, armor check penalties and all that other stuff because that is your normal movement. If you're schlepping around at a heavy load normally, you are still schlepping around at a heavy load. If you're heavy armor is slowing you down, zapping you with a -7 or what ever armor check penalty, you are still schlepping around with that -7 or what ever armor check penalty. Solid barriers do not impede movement - they are terrain features, whether temporary or otherwise. You want to walk through walls, I recommend ethereal jaunt, passwall and other such effects/spells.

I'm guessing a "definitive guide" is being requested ? Here's what I have with a bit of work:

Mancatcher - grappling polearm, freedom of movement stops it completely. Probably the same for lassos.

Net, tanglefoot bag, caltrop, spider webbing - these are all both extraordinary and create the entangled condition. Ironically, if these are backed up with sovereign glue or immovable rods some how, freedom of movement prevails due to the "magic" element. Entangle effects anchored to immovable objects can immobilize you, as per the CRB.

Dazed and Stunned conditions - these deny you the ability to take actions; they do not affect your movement.

Ability score damage, drain and penalties that make you immobile are not affected. You have a 0 Strength or Dexterity or fall into some flavor of coma as a result. Movement is impeded by virtue of being affected in some nasty, unpleasant fashion. This should be considered common sense. However, we are talking about gamers, so :P.

CRB Spells: These spells are thwarted by freedom of movement, either specifically or by the operative phrases: acid fog, animate rope when used to entangle, but not trip, bestow curse only when the curse impedes your movement, say a permanent halving of speed, binding chaining & bound slumber versions only, although the latter's sleep effect you still have to worry about, black tentacles, chaos hammer <- only prevents the slow "side effect", control weather, control winds these two spells, the main effect it helps against are the wind effects that hinder movement, crushing hand <- only when that hand is used to grapple, earthquake for the 1 round, and only against the quake's prohibition against the ability of creatures on the ground ability to move - you still cannot attack, entangle if thorny vegetation is involved, you still take that damage from your movement, ghoul touch note that if you failed the saving throw against this spell, you still reek to high heaven - you're just not paralyzed, grasping hand <- only when that hand is used to grapple, gust of wind not often applicable, mostly to polymorphed characters in itty bitty bodies, halt undead, hold animal, hold monster, hold person, mass hold person, holy word <- paralysis only, you're still affected by the other stuff, ice storm difficult terrain aspect only, mark of justice only when the mark's curse impedes your movement, see bestow curse, prismatic barriers (the sphere and wall) are a bad idea to try to go through - the indigo layer strips all your spells off while the violet layer obliterates your non-artifact gear before you can attempt a Will save to finish stepping through naked - failure means you step through naked to some other plane - oops!, repel metal or stone, repel vermin, repel wood, repulsion, shield of law slow effect only, sleet storm you can move just fine, you can't see any better though ..., slow, snare, soften earth and stone, solid fog, spike stones ironic, considering that spike growth is actually effective against freedom of movement - note that you still take damage while moving at full speed through spike stones, telekinesis only when used to grapple/pin - you're fair game for the many other things this spell can do to you, web, whirlwind again, only against being denied movement - you still suck up the damage and wind wall only of consequence if you are in an itty bitty form.

The repulsion, repel metal or stone, repel vermin, repel wood spells are an odd case. freedom of movement means that you can move through these effects without difficulty - but it sure doesn't mean that these spells cannot fling you backwards/away, when applicable.

Anti-life shell, anti-plant shell, reverse gravity, sepia snake sigil (and greater versions of this - namely imprisonment, soul bind, certain versions of binding and temporal stasis, among others) all might ask "why doesn't freedom of movement help against them?"

Answers: (a) The two shells do not affect your movement, they are defensive barriers much like an intangible wall of force. Your movement is not penalized, you freely move otherwise - you cannot move through them is all. (b) Reverse gravity changes gravity - it does not impede your movement. (c) Sepia snake sigil and its "cousins" place you in slumber/stasis of one sort or another, your movement is the least of your worries due to being unable to do anything at all. The inability to act trumps freedom from impeded movement. Also, that's why they have a freedom spell in the game, not to mention miracle and limited wish / wish.

APG Spells: alter winds again, only against wind effects impeding movement, aqueus orb, calcific touch only against the slow effect of this spell, fire of entanglement, frozen note, river of wind, seamantle only as regards making melee attacks against a foe within one, shifting sand, stone call.

[GarvokTla]

I know a lot of you who referance this message board about FoM to see if you can get some game mechanic questions answered. well here is the research i've done on it.
First off a refresher of what the spell says, taken from the PRD (thus the most updated source of the spell):

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing

So the first line has brough up major contestations in the interpretation of it. this is what i've come up with; First line has 2 parts to it. The mundane world and the magical world. the mundane world effects of FoM "This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell,..." (the comma seperates the mundane from the magical effects that it applies to). Some of you say that the mundane world hinderance effects dont apply, i contest that point of view by how the sentence was writen. then you might say that you cant normally move through underbrush so it doesnt apply. yes, and no. it applies because you are spending extra Movement squares/speed to overcome the actual hinderance. however FoM allows you to move normally inspite of Movement cost hinderance.

This is where we turn to the Core rules on movement. Under the Tactical Movement section of the Core Book pg192 "Your speed is determined by your race and your armor(see Table 8–3). Your speed while unarmored is your base land speed." This is the rules for normal speed. so if you were heavy armor that would slow you down. the slower speed is still your normal movement due to wearing it. Heavy armor Modifies your Base move speed, thus modifies your Normal movement and is NOT effected by FoM. Encumbrance is also NOT negated by FoM because weight of carried items is slowing you down normally and modifies your base speed thusly.

The Main mundane things that FoM does effect is Hampered Movement. Core Rules of Hampered Movement "Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement." Reason i point this out to you is because if you go into the rules for Terrain and Obstacles(pg193), is because you are spending movement points (EI 5ft squares) to actually move the 5 or more feet needed to actually move. Thus not moving normally, becuase it is hindered. Difficult Terrain- costs 2 squares of movement(3for diagnals) for each square you actually move. Obstacles- costs 2 squares of movement (3 for diagnals). Squeezing- costs 2 squares of movement (3 for diagnals). FoM elimiates the extra movement/square costs for moving through these impeded situations becuase you are then moving Normally by spending 5ft for actual 5ft of movement.
If the terrain incures any other types of penalties, such as Squeezing incures a -4to AC and -4 to attack rolls due to hindered movement. the AC penalty still applies, but the attack penalty does not, because again FoM allows you to move and Attack normally.
FoM does not allow you to "phase" through walls since you cannot do that normally, it is an illegal move(unless you're a ghost or other incorporeal).
So to recap; FoM allows you to move and attack normally, so anything that costs extra movement points (difficult terrain, etc...) costs the normal amount of movement points to move through. FoM negates all the conditions that impedes movement, but not any other modfiers that do not apply to movement specifically.
Armor Check penalties are not a form of hindered movement. they affect skills, not movement. Climb, Swim, and Fly are methods of movement so long as you have a Climb, Swim, or Fly Speed. Armor check penalties are still incured during those types of movement Normally even when you have those methods of movement, so FoM does NOT negate Armor Check Penalties for those skills inspite of having those types of movement.
Webs spun by spiders Entangle the target. Entangle impedes movement, by either half (if not achored to an immovable object) or full (by being anchored to an imoveable object). All of which is negated by FoM. Entangle is a movement based condition, since FoM negates movement hinderances Web does not work against a character under the effects of FoM.

Now the Magical aspects from the 2nd part of the first line. "...even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web." These spells were most likely picked as example spells because of the magical and mundane aspects that are inclusive into their effects.
Paralysis-makes you unable to move, period. So FoM allows you to move unhindered, thusly negating paralysis. This could very much include other special abilities that are paralytic as well, such as a ghouls bite, which is what the spell emulates or vice versa. so since FoM negates the magical Paralysis because that condition hinders movement, its pretty safe to say that it effects the more mundane ghoul bite as well. magic always trumps mundane unless you're stuck in a large anti-magic field.
Solid Fog-impedes movement by halving your speed. So it costs 2 squares of movement to actually move 1 square. FoM negates the movement cost increase(penalty) and it also negates the penalties to attack.
Slow- parts affected by FoM; half movement rate (becomes normal), -1 to attack rolls (negated). parts NOT affected by FoM; Staggered condition (limits actions, not movement or attacks), -1 to AC (ability to defend one's self is not unhindered by FoM), and Reflex saves (same reason as before).
Web- Grapples targets in its effect, which FoM automatically negates. The area in the Web is considered Difficult terrain (2 squares of movement to move one square) which i believe is negated by FoM as stated in the Mundane parts that FoM negates. Cover caused by the Web is NOT negated.
these spells are not the soul limitation to the types of spells that can be negated fully or partially by FoM. the however do set up good examples of why and what parts are negated by FoM. if a spell or effect limits normal Movement or Attacks then FoM negates it.

Now for the underwater part of FoM. everyone moves normally through water at 1/4 speed (move action), unless you have an actual swim speed. what FoM negates is the attacking while under water, which is stated what affects it has in the spell. it also would negate the "difficult terrain" aspects of swimming, such as swimming through an area overgrown by seaweed.
The Grey Area of underwater and FoM; one could contest that upon reaching the waterbed (the bottom) that they could then walk at normal speed underwater since they are walking, which they have a speed for. well, i leave that up to each DM then. reason being that if the DM allows this. then someone who has a fly speed could "fly" through the water unimpeded as well since the guy who walks on the bottom doesnt have to deal with resistance of movement due to the nature of water, then those who can move 3 dimensionally (so long as its not a solid object they are moving through) can do so unimpeded under the effects of FoM. Again, not touching that with a 10ft pole cuz its a bag of worms i'd like to avoid by saying "no, the guy who gets to the bottom cannot 'walk' along the bottom unimpeded by the resistance of the water under the effects of FoM. he's still in water, therefore still is swimming (without making a check cuz its via walking. so he still has the slower speed but doesnt have to make checks so long as he stays at the bottom of the water)or not moving."

hope this gives insight as to which way you wish to interpret Freedom of Movement. if not... look! Worms! <hands over a can>

[Algodor]

---This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.---

The above is taken from the spell's text, and it seems to me to clearly show what it can and can't do. If it impedes movement, i'd say it doesn't affect a character, EVEN magical influence. With magic being an addition to the rule, not the only thing affected.

Its my two cents i suppose...