Question on Shadowdancer’s Rogue Talents (Requesting official input)


Rules Questions


28 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite.

My question is pretty simple: Are levels in Shadowdancer meant to stack with levels in Rogue to determine “Rogue level” for the Rogue Talents that depend on Rogue level? So for instance, if I was a level 10 Rogue and level 10 Shadowdancer with the Resiliency, Knock-Out Blow, Minor/Major Magic, or Dispelling Attack Rogue Talents, would the levels in Shadowdancer count toward “Rogue level” since the Shadowdancer also has the Rogue Talents class feature? I am aware that the “levels stack” caveat is not present in either the Rogue’s or Shadowdancer’s Rogue Talent entries and so by strict RAW the levels don’t stack for determining Rogue level for the Rogue Talents. But it does say “This functions as the rogue talent class feature.” What I am really looking for here is developer (official) input as to whether they are intended to stack. The Shadowdancer receives the Rogue Talent class ability so it makes sense that they would stack, much like the levels stack for Uncanny Dodge, however it isn’t explicitly stated in the entries for Rogue Talents.

If I am a 10 Rogue/10 Shadowdancer and have any of these:

PRD wrote:
Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a rogue with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the rogue's level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the rogue's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.

Will I get 10 THP or 20 THP?

PRD wrote:
Knock-Out Blow (Ex): Once per day, the rogue can forgo her sneak attack damage to attempt to knock out an opponent. She must declare the use of knock-out blow before she makes the attack. If the attack hits, it does normal damage, but instead of dealing sneak attack damage (and instead of any effect that triggers when the rogue deals sneak attack damage), the target falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save reduces this effect to staggered for 1 round. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.

Will the Fort DC be 10 + 5 + INT bonus or 10 + 10 + INT bonus?

PRD wrote:

Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 11 to select this talent. A rogue must have the minor magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Minor Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 10 to select this talent.
Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a rogue with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. A rogue must have the major magic rogue talent before choosing dispelling attack.

Is my caster level for these abilities 10 or 20?

It makes sense for the levels of Shadowdancer to count toward “Rogue level” for the purposes of Rogue Talents simply because it is also a Shadowdancer class feature. However, the Shadowdancer’s Rogue Talent entry doesn’t have the “levels stack” caveat so I would like to get some official input on this. Are Shadowdancer levels meant to stack with Rogue levels for determining “Rogue level” in regards to the Rogue Talent class ability?


I'm going to try to keep this question alive for a little while at least. No one else is curious about this? If you are, hit the FAQ button. And again, any official input would be appreciated.

*bump*


I just searched the forums for “Shadowdancer Rogue Talents” and discovered I am not even the first person who has posted this question on the forums. This has been asked at least twice before, HERE and HERE.

Reading those other threads brought up a good point. What if a Fighter went into Shadowdancer and took the Minor Magic, Major Magic and Resiliency Rogue Talents? His Rogue level is exactly ZERO, so does he take those talents and gain two spell like abilities with a caster level of 0 and gain 0 temporary hit points from Resiliency? I certainly hope no. So, common sense dictates that Shadowdancer levels must stack for the purposes of determining “Rogue Level” for the Rogue Talents.

Regardless of what common sense dictates, I would still love to see some official input for this topic.

*bump*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Rouge levels stack with Shadowdancer only on specific talent by talent basis such as Uncanny Dodge. Shadowdancers do not get access to advanced rogue talents unless they qualified for them as rogues previously.

To answer an earlier post Shadowdancer is not a PrC that's meant to be a straight advance from Fighter. You're supposed to come into it from Rogue.

Shadowdancers do not stack with rogue for any purposes other than on the specific items mentioned in the class description. This also excludes effective caster level for the rogue magic tricks.

So to answer your question it's on a feature by feature basis, those that do not specifically say they stack with rogue levels.... don't.


Yet, i dont see why they should not stack. Sounds reasonable enough.


LazarX wrote:

Rouge levels stack with Shadowdancer only on specific talent by talent basis such as Uncanny Dodge. Shadowdancers do not get access to advanced rogue talents unless they qualified for them as rogues previously.

To answer an earlier post Shadowdancer is not a PrC that's meant to be a straight advance from Fighter. You're supposed to come into it from Rogue.

Shadowdancers do not stack with rogue for any purposes other than on the specific items mentioned in the class description. This also excludes effective caster level for the rogue magic tricks.

So to answer your question it's on a feature by feature basis, those that do not specifically say they stack with rogue levels.... don't.

So this PrC has a class ability that is entirely dependent on class levels from a completely different class? That makes about as much sense as Paladin Simte being based on Monk levels.

There's only two reasonable ways to read this. One is, that they were meant to stack for the purposes of level dependent variables, or they are based entirely off Shadowdancer levels.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Rouge levels stack with Shadowdancer only on specific talent by talent basis such as Uncanny Dodge. Shadowdancers do not get access to advanced rogue talents unless they qualified for them as rogues previously.

To answer an earlier post Shadowdancer is not a PrC that's meant to be a straight advance from Fighter. You're supposed to come into it from Rogue.

Shadowdancers do not stack with rogue for any purposes other than on the specific items mentioned in the class description. This also excludes effective caster level for the rogue magic tricks.

So to answer your question it's on a feature by feature basis, those that do not specifically say they stack with rogue levels.... don't.

So this PrC has a class ability that is entirely dependent on class levels from a completely different class? That makes about as much sense as Paladin Simte being based on Monk levels.

Given that the PrC in question seems very much to be a followup from rogue just as the Loremaster is a follow up from Wizard it makes perfect sense to be structured this way. Are you going to say that Loremaster is a poor designed because it's not a straight lead in from Fighter or Ranger?

The original concept of Prestige Classes was to be specialisations of particular aspects of base classes. Paizo seems to be returning to that core concept instead of what it mutated to under WOTC Splatmania.


unopened wrote:
Yet, i dont see why they should not stack. Sounds reasonable enough.

It isn't unreasonable, but it does go against the philosophy they've used in the designing of all other such abilities to date. In the cases where a prestige class is supposed to stack its levels with a base class for the purposes of an ability the prestige class specifically states such.

Examples include:
holy vindicator and channel energy
Rage Prophet and oracle curse
Dragon Disciple and the draconic sorcerer's bloodline

This goes with the current design philosophy that to gain what you get from a prestige class (or multi-classing) that you give up what you were getting in your base class.


It's not really a big deal. There are few rogue talents that just make no sense for Shadow Dancer to take unless they came into the Prestige Class with rogue levels.

I have Inquisitor of Mask with the Darkness domain and sub domain of night in a game where I'm planning on taking Shadow Dancer. It actually hinders my character from optimization point but fit the concept I've created. It works just fine but there are few talents that just don't work with this build so I won't pick them. Fast stealth is going to be the first one I pick.


Shadowlord wrote:
Reading those other threads brought up a good point. What if a Fighter went into Shadowdancer and took the Minor Magic, Major Magic and Resiliency Rogue Talents? His Rogue level is exactly ZERO, so does he take those talents and gain two spell like abilities with a caster level of 0 and gain 0 temporary hit points from Resiliency?

I think he takes his level as Shadowdancer in account... So a lvl 10 rogue / lvl 3 shadowdancer who takes minor magic has a shadowdancer talent will cast this particular talent as a lvl 3...

But on the good side, I also think that he can choose a rogue talent he already has taken has a rogue, since he would take it has another class completely... ;)


When reading the Shadow Dancer Class Skill Rogue Talent it says that it fuctions as the rouge talent class feature. I have taken that to mean untill you get your Shadow Dancer to Lvl 3 your Lvl's do not stack with your rogue for the pourpose as Rogue talents but after 3rd Lvl they do stack As far as the fighter or any other class that takes this as a perstige class they would just use there Shadow Dancer Lvls as rouge lvls for purpose of Rouge Talents.

It also States that if you have the Ability to tale Advaced Talents then you can pick from them instead folloing the same rules. But your shadow dancer levels do not stack in the case where you would be able to add Lvls together to achive the rogue class feature Advanced Talents

Ex:
(Tom Lvl 15 8 rouge/ 7 shadow dancer can add his levels for the purpose of his Rogue talents and how they function but is not able to take Advacned Talents till his Rogue Lvl reaches 10 +)

[/QUOTE : At 3rd level, and every three levels
thereafter, a shadowdancer gains a special ability that
allows her to confound her foes. This functions as the
rogue talent class feature. A shadowdancer cannot select
an individual talent more than once. If a shadowdancer
has the advanced talents rogue class feature, she can chose
from the advanced talents list instead.]

Grand Lodge

So why there is still no FAQ on core Prestige Class?

Silver Crusade

Because it only got 13 FAQ clicks?

Dark Archive

About time for a Unchained Shadowdancer?


Mr.Nightray wrote:

About time for a Unchained Shadowdancer?

a one liner in the errata would be suficient:

"Shadow dancer levels stack with rogue levels to determine rogue talents."

because it should be noted that the shadow dancer actually gets 3 advanced talents: Slippery mind, improved evasion and defensive roll. Starting at character level 10 (assuming 5 levels of rogue) so the limit to choose advaned talents feels silly.

Together with the 3 talents the Shadow Dancer can choose, he ends up with one more talent on 10 levels than the rogue on a streight build.

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