Gunslinger Retires At 11th- Secret Stash Signature Deed


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 1

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Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ok, so at 11th level, I make the Secret Stash Deed my Signature Deed and can now produce 3 bullets and 3 powder packs at will for 0 grit as long as I have 1 grit. At 33gp per round, this is much more productive than adventuring, so I quit that noise and spend 10 minutes a day producing 3300gp worth of supplies, 6-8 hours selling them, and the rest of my life spending the cash.

I know it was said "this is silly" and "this was not the intention", so, fix it so it doesn't work this way. That's what Jason had to do with wall of iron, etc.

Suggested fixes:

A) Get rid of the grit charge, make it usable once per day.
B) Make it cost 2 Grit so it can't be reduced to 0
C) Make signature deed have a minimum cost of 1 grit instead of 0
D) Get rid of the Secret Stash Deed, since it's pretty darn "silly" to begin with.


I agree with either choice B or D, preferably the latter.

While free ammo sounds appealing enough, the idea that "you already had it but you forgot about it" just feels like metagaming to me. This was the kind of mess that made the Kender so annoying to role players (thankfully, Pathfinder is my first d20 game). In addition to the idea that the Gunslinger basically has Pockets of Holding that can only work for powder and bullets, the infinite gp exploit explained above is the kind of stupid thing that could break the game. Not that any decent roleplayer would ever exploit it, but the fact that it's possible kind of irks me.

My idea for a replacement is a deed/feat/whatnot that lets you dig out residual gunpowder from your pockets, requiring you to have already shot x number of times to provide one dose of powder to use it. Nowhere near as useful, but less problematic IMHO.


The best way to do it would be to simply reduce the cost of bullets and powder to a reasonable amount, and remove the deed altogether. Then you wouldn't need to worry about "finding ammo" any more than the archer or crossbow fighter need to worry about "finding arrows/quarrels" (which is to say...you need them, but buying them in bulk isn't a problem).


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Or just add that powder and shot found through this deed can not be sold, pure simple and keep the deed it is cool.

Silver Crusade

Realmwalker wrote:
Or just add that powder and shot found through this deed can not be sold, pure simple and keep the deed it is cool.

I agree, the bullets you find are going to be slightly scarred by your other possessions cutting into them in the bottom of your bags and the powder charges are going to be lint covered and possibly even close to ripping open from being tucked in the unknown regions of your bags.

These aren't going to be "good" ammunition, but more along the line of things that you'd prefer to re-cast and re-pack before using them yourself providing you had the time even though they'd "probably" work just fine in their current condition.

I think that it should cost 1 grit and be usable 1/day to find useable, but poor quality supplies that would be worthless to a shopkeeper. If you want to be really evil, increase the misfire chance while using ammunition found in this way by 1-2.


Easy Fix. Gunslinger has to pay for the shot and powder. There are precedents of this kind of quantum entanglement based bookkeeping in other feats I believe.

Liberty's Edge

Even easier fix. The instant the gunslinger says "I retire from adventuring", you say "OK, roll a new character". Problem solved.


Bullets must be expensive IMHO, but Secret Stash Deed turns the tables like a 20 on a vorpal's critical hit. The only way to keep the gunslinger cool and fine, without removing the deed, is to limit the deed's power. But How?
1)Allow the use of Secret Stash, but bullets can't be sold. Easy, as someone said before me. But if you just let the player get more and more bullets, in the end he will be able to do something horrible anyway. I first tried this way, but the players didn't make a fuss: they just piled up a mountain of bullets and set on fire the black powder. This gives the player explosive anyway, it's like the alchemist being able of keeping his bomb instead of throwing it.
2)Do not allow the use of Secret Stash, lower the price. Fine, huh? But still, dangerous. The main problem is still the chance of piling black powder to cause mayhem.
3)Allow the use of Secret Stash, but the cost in grit points rises. This is more effective, but probably wouldn't be considered. Why? Amateur Gunslingers wouldn't be able to do it with just a grit point per day, unless they get more grit in the heat of battle. Does a sparkle of light start to shine in the dark depths of this problem?
4)Allow the use of Secret Stash, but only in certain situations. One would be in the fight: ad adventurer wouldn't be able to just enter a battle, leave his friends to struggle and look in his pockets to earn his 33 daily gp or whatever. Another situation could be exactly when he doesn't have bullets with him anymore, but could be easily avoided by greedy players by storing bullets and powder elsewhere. My last choice is the one I love the most, since i'm the GM and is just up to me. If the player has a good reason for earning new bullets, then leave him earn it. If you think he's up to something, just don't allow it. But I think Secret Stash is a good idea, just like the one a genius child would have: he doesn't understand the consequences.


What if Secret Stash worked like this...

The Ammo and powder are mixed in such a way they only work with the characters unique weapon. Sort of like how only certain types of cartridges work in certain kinds of rifles.

The Gunslinger dabbles in alchemy and tinkers with his own weapons in such a way, that his Special Loads generated from his stash work only in his weapons.

He could sell the loads but only at a salvagers cost, and then only to other Gunslingers and maybe alchemist....

Eric


TheDoctor wrote:
Easy Fix. Gunslinger has to pay for the shot and powder. There are precedents of this kind of quantum entanglement based bookkeeping in other feats I believe.

Hmm, when I read Secret Stash it never crossed my mind that the gunslinger wouldn't have had to pay for the shot and powder to have it available for use.

Please do NOT do bizarre metagame things like "they can't be sold," that's the kind of crap that can stay in 4e. The fix needs to be a coherent in-game explanation.


I really like the general idea behind this thing, as they're already making the class a gold-hog like nothing else with their pricing system. I'm not sure what the fix is aside from making the cost of munitions significantly more reasonable, but I'm fine with it just being a case of "the DM has to say 'no' sometimes." I mean, I can already deforest an entire region in 0 seconds to create infinite quarterstaves. This isn't really any less silly - just more profitable.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I really like the idea of this, especially if the players find themselves in a situation where they are unable to resupply for some time. I would be disappointed if it were to disappear.

I think there's an easy way to solve this problem, though: limit the deed so that it can only be used if the Gunslinger has less than 3 bullets or doses of powder remaining.


You can always just add " this deed can not be preformed more times per day then your wisdom mod. " to the end of the secret stash deed feat. That way people who want to take it as signature still can but cant overly exploit it. Your most likely going to be using up that many shots a day anyway at level 11.


Tagion wrote:
You can always just add " this deed can not be preformed more times per day then your wisdom mod. " to the end of the secret stash deed feat. That way people who want to take it as signature still can but cant overly exploit it. Your most likely going to be using up that many shots a day anyway at level 11.

I like this idea. That way it doesn't nerf the deed, and even if you make it your signature it won't break the local economy. It's more of an, "Oh crap, I'm out of money...Wait, here's a couple bullets I had in my coat that I can sell so I don't have to sleep on the street tonight!" sort of moment. While you can still (quite possibly) create over 100GP/day of bullets and powder, you won't be able to sell it at full price, and eventually you'll either cause the price to go down (from flooding the local market) or have someone from the local gunsmith's or alchemist's guild come 'round to break your legs.

Sovereign Court

Clearly 11th level gunslingers with secret stash are the only ones managing to support the economy lower level gunslingers depend upon to buy their ammo ;) (theres no way anyone else is making enough...)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

A better idea would be to have the ability only work during the act of loading a firearm.


Just make the class magical already and give him free ammo from level 1 which only he can use (with number of uses per round increasing with BAB to diminish the effect of dipping). No mundane explanation will ever be able to explain away free expensive ammo. Or give up on the notion of balancing an overpowered weapon with ammunition cost while at the same time trying to build a class around it.

The designers are trying to unite too many objectives which are mutually incompatible.

Dark Archive

Or, I challenge all of you to actually create a valid argument for why your standard shop keep should buy ammo for a weapon that they may not carry, or ever find someone to buy for.


Dissinger wrote:
Or, I challenge all of you to actually create a valid argument for why your standard shop keep should buy ammo for a weapon that they may not carry, or ever find someone to buy for.

How so? Rogue adventurers are lining up to buy this stuff.

A couple of pistols with magical bullets and a quick-draw feat together with the sniper goggles makes for a nice way to open combat.

Dark Archive

Pinky's Brain wrote:
Dissinger wrote:
Or, I challenge all of you to actually create a valid argument for why your standard shop keep should buy ammo for a weapon that they may not carry, or ever find someone to buy for.

How so? Rogue adventurers are lining up to buy this stuff.

A couple of pistols with magical bullets and a quick-draw feat together with the sniper goggles makes for a nice way to open combat.

Magical Bullets require masterwork ammunition, the feat doesn't make masterwork ammunition, only normal ammo. Try again please.

It's ludicrous for a shop keep to keep mundane weaponry that most adventurers would bypass for a +1 ANYTHING else.

To expand upon this, the ammunition doesn't move nearly as fast as a quiver of arrows. The shop keep would be taking a bet that someone would come to buy the ammunition. Seeing as how you're a gunslinger and selling the ammunition, obviously you don't need it, so the only guy he's seen so far isn't buying ammo anymore, that makes it hard for him to justify buying the item from you.


GMW doesn't care about masterwork.


OR your dm/gm looks at you and asks you if you really want to do that. if you say yes then the deed suddenly doesnt work when you need it to and your up the creek without a paddle.

for any BS like this there is a gm ready to say NO.

Dark Archive

Pinky's Brain wrote:
GMW doesn't care about masterwork.

GMW can also be used on a bow, do the same damage have a slightly lower crit modifier, fire more times per round without feat expenditure or using up a pool of resources, and potentially add most if not all of your strength modifier to the damage.

Arguing that Greater Magic Weapon makes ammunition awesome isn't an argument, because I could argue that a bow is more effective a use for this than the gun. Especially since a shopkeeper isn't handing out free scrolls of greater magic weapon with purchase. Your argument doesn't make it easier for the shopkeeper to buy the ammo from you, it only makes your position more tenuous as now you're relying on even MORE expendables to justify the shop keep buying ammunition for a weapon he might rarely if ever see an adventurer using.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

How about we just say that if your character decides to become a merchant instead of an adventurer, then your character becomes a merchant instead of an adventurer (Read: NPC).

I mean, it's not like this problem exists only with the Gunslinger. Check out spellcasting as a service from the equipment chapter. At 11th level, a cantrip costs 55 gp. [sarcasm] That's essentially a free 55 gp per round every time you're in town, right? [/sarcasm]


One option that was missing in the OP is to make Secret Stash an ineligibile choice for the Signature Deed feat.
There is precedence for this (Bard spells may not be modified by Silent Spell)

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

I don't mean to denigrate anyone posting, but this whole idea bugs me.

It really irritates me when people try to abuse cinematic abilities like Secret Stash. It's supposed to be a secret stash, the hidden stockpile of a desperate veteran gunfighter. The name itself suggests that it isn't an endless powder mill.

I resent the need for rules to forestall silly rules interpretations like "There's no concrete limit, so I can produce an endless supply!"


Sir_Wulf wrote:

I don't mean to denigrate anyone posting, but this whole idea bugs me.

It really irritates me when people try to abuse cinematic abilities like Secret Stash. It's supposed to be a secret stash, the hidden stockpile of a desperate veteran gunfighter. The name itself suggests that it isn't an endless powder mill.

I resent the need for rules to forestall silly rules interpretations like "There's no concrete limit, so I can produce an endless supply!"

I do concur. But part of Paizo's strategy involves Organized Play, so some kind of uniform system limiting this is probably warranted.


I prefer E) Beat up the smug wise-ass trying to exploit a loophole while being stupid enough to forget that the game's arbiter is a real-life person, not a computer.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Reckless wrote:

Ok, so at 11th level, I make the Secret Stash Deed my Signature Deed and can now produce 3 bullets and 3 powder packs at will for 0 grit as long as I have 1 grit. At 33gp per round, this is much more productive than adventuring, so I quit that noise and spend 10 minutes a day producing 3300gp worth of supplies, 6-8 hours selling them, and the rest of my life spending the cash.

I know it was said "this is silly" and "this was not the intention", so, fix it so it doesn't work this way. That's what Jason had to do with wall of iron, etc.

Suggested fixes:

A) Get rid of the grit charge, make it usable once per day.
B) Make it cost 2 Grit so it can't be reduced to 0
C) Make signature deed have a minimum cost of 1 grit instead of 0
D) Get rid of the Secret Stash Deed, since it's pretty darn "silly" to begin with.

F) Have secret stash operate on the assumption that the flavour text implies, that the gunsling bought, and forgot about them. So when they use the ability deduct that amount of ammo's worth of gold from the character. Its the "oh yeah I did buy those bullets" but you actually have to BUY them. Furthermore, for verisimilitude, you could limit it to 100 gp worth of bullets, and you have to visit a town which would at minimum sell the necessary components to make bullets if not sell them out right to replenish your bullet pool.

This would be in line with a lot of the other "oh yeah I have an x in my pocket" abilities.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Just a thought I had reading over this. What happens if the gunslinger (being the outlaw that he is) has been stripped of his possessions and tossed in jail. Can he still whip out three bullets and three doses of powder? Where has he been hiding it? (or would we rather not know...)


+1 Winnar!

I say yes! Prison breaks are almost integral to being a gunslinger! I mean, watch X pirate/duelist/Clint Eastwood/John Wayne/John Woo movie!

I wonder how much black powder it takes to bend iron bars... I hope (for the gunslinger's sake) it's relatively little...

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Reckless wrote:
G) Get rid of grit.

This is the best solution, which would require this deed to be a daily limit or re-tooled as a craft action.

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
At 11th level, a cantrip costs 55 gp.

Nope, it is still 2 gp 5 sp. No one needs an 11th caster level Cantrip and few people need a 2.5 gp one.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

How about the ability only works in combat, when the characters owns NO other powder or shot and the 'cobbled together makeshift components' must be used within X rounds or they lose their potency? A semi exeptional ability that the Gunslinger can do that borders on the supernatural but isn't? Much like the NEAR supernatural 'Improved Evasion' other classes have?

The gunslinger cobbles together a bunch of junk to make a 'usable but not really good in anyones elses hands' ammo to make that last desperate shot or 3?

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

James Risner wrote:


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
At 11th level, a cantrip costs 55 gp.
Nope, it is still 2 gp 5 sp. No one needs an 11th caster level Cantrip and few people need a 2.5 gp one.

Oh, so the wizard has to worry about demand for his 'product', but the gunslinger can sell off his funky old pocket-powder as often as he wants, no problem? I don't think so! What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

But you're right, it's not very cost effective to cast most cantrips at high level. There are a few I can think of off the top of my head that have scaling level effects, but those are on the cleric/druid list (create water, purify food and drink), and it's cheaper just to cast them 11 times in a row.

Really, if mister wizard wants to get rich, he should cast all the other spells he gets for free each day. By selling off his 5th and 6th level spell slots, he can hit the gunslingers 10 minute earnings in about 6 rounds, leaving him an extra 9 minutes of leisure each day.

...Or, like I say, we can acknowledge that the economic system of Pathfinder is designed to serve adventurers, not merchants, and play accordingly?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Oh, so the wizard has to worry about demand for his 'product', but the gunslinger can sell off his funky old pocket-powder as often as he wants, no problem?

...Or, like I say, we can acknowledge that the economic system of Pathfinder is designed to serve adventurers, not merchants, and play accordingly?

i don't think I followed your post.

The wizard isn't worrying about demand, because there is no demand for CL 11 Cantrips.

The economy is entirely GM fiat, so the Wizard's ability to profit and the Gunslinger's ability are the same. Any reasonable DM will shut it down by changing the world the instant it looks like the PC is profiting. At least in my view, that is what the PC should expect to happen.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Oh, so the wizard has to worry about demand for his 'product', but the gunslinger can sell off his funky old pocket-powder as often as he wants, no problem?

...Or, like I say, we can acknowledge that the economic system of Pathfinder is designed to serve adventurers, not merchants, and play accordingly?

i don't think I followed your post.

The wizard isn't worrying about demand, because there is no demand for CL 11 Cantrips.

The economy is entirely GM fiat, so the Wizard's ability to profit and the Gunslinger's ability are the same. Any reasonable DM will shut it down by changing the world the instant it looks like the PC is profiting. At least in my view, that is what the PC should expect to happen.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

James Risner wrote:


i don't think I followed your post.

The wizard isn't worrying about demand, because there is no demand for CL 11 Cantrips.

The economy is entirely GM fiat, so the Wizard's ability to profit and the Gunslinger's ability are the same. Any reasonable DM will shut it down by changing the world the instant it looks like the PC is profiting. At least in my view, that is what the PC should expect to happen.

That's basically what I was getting at.

The OP says the gunslinger can cheat the system and become fabulously wealthy. My point was that plenty of classes can do that, and yet the game still functions, because as you say; reasonable GM's generally don't stand for that kind of silliness.

Senior Designer

My snarky answer is "hey if you want to retire your gunslinger at 11th level, then be my guest."

Maybe the higher levels are just not interesting to you.

At the same time, we want this deed to be thematic and interesting. We have a few potential fixes to this deed.


I like the idea (though I'm not exactly sure how to flavour it) that the acquired ammo is only viable for a short time (maybe a minute), so that the 'slinger can only really effectively use it in combat.


Jonathon Vining wrote:
I like the idea (though I'm not exactly sure how to flavour it) that the acquired ammo is only viable for a short time (maybe a minute), so that the 'slinger can only really effectively use it in combat.

I like the idea that it is scrounged ammo, not every charge of powder could possibly be exactly measured, and a few bullets could get lost in the folds of a pocket until direly needed.


Just make ammunition not so prohibitively expensive, and you'll see far fewer gunslingers taking this currently mandatory feat. Seriously, 33 gold for three shots? What kind of adventurer wants to hemorrhage money like that? A longbow arrow costs 1/20th of a gold piece, for crying out loud. You never see archers wanting to take feats to find three free arrows on their person, because it's easy to keep arrows around, and it's friggin' cheap. You get rid of the exorbitant cost, and the feat becomes thematic but not vital, and you run into far less of this.


Dissinger wrote:
Or, I challenge all of you to actually create a valid argument for why your standard shop keep should buy ammo for a weapon that they may not carry, or ever find someone to buy for.

The shop keeper could simply melt the bulets for lead and barrels of black pouder is useful for all sorts of things like mining.

I would grant you that the slinger wouldn't get full price, but that's not a real problem when you can make all you want.

Personally I am more weary of a lvl 11 slinger making a couple millions and buy crazy gear/derail a campain setting, then he/she "just" retiring.


Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tamago wrote:

I really like the idea of this, especially if the players find themselves in a situation where they are unable to resupply for some time. I would be disappointed if it were to disappear.

I think there's an easy way to solve this problem, though: limit the deed so that it can only be used if the Gunslinger has less than 3 bullets or doses of powder remaining.

Nice idea, keeps it simple and useful without Munchkins turning the deed into an endless decanter of bullets and powder... and still making it viable in the game...


Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Just make ammunition not so prohibitively expensive, and you'll see far fewer gunslingers taking this currently mandatory feat. Seriously, 33 gold for three shots? What kind of adventurer wants to hemorrhage money like that? A longbow arrow costs 1/20th of a gold piece, for crying out loud. You never see archers wanting to take feats to find three free arrows on their person, because it's easy to keep arrows around, and it's friggin' cheap. You get rid of the exorbitant cost, and the feat becomes thematic but not vital, and you run into far less of this.

in my opinion your idea is the best


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As with any other rules lawyerish infinite money loop, I would like one person to show me the city with a stat block that includes infinite under the purchase limit or total resources. There are no infinite money loops, while one set of rules will seem to create them, the rules for settlements put pretty hard limits on how much those settlements can spend.


Some merchant's wont buy stuff from just anyone that walks in. Some merchants have set suppliers that they buy from. Plus when you start flooding the market with gunpowder and ammo, the value drops significantly. Most shopkeepers also don't want to keep tons of black powder around because that stuff is volatile and they use things like lanterns to light the stores. Yes, you can buy volatile stuff like alchemist fire, but really look at the items. They take a while to make and if you think about it, are not really in high demand. A shop MAYBE will have one or two. Remember, this is a roleplaying game so the shops have to make sense as well. You can't buy anything you want from any store and they would have limits on how much inventory they actually have. A shopkeeper would have to be stupid to keep a bunch of that stuff around unless he understood how supply and demand works. Most people in town don't buy this sort because towns are mainly NPC classes. What does a carpenter or fisherman need with with black powder? Before someone says it, loose powder or a small dose isn't very good for TNT fishing, plus the powder gets all wet. Remember this is black powder, not the awesome gunpowder we have today. Black powder actually sucks which is why pistols have such a short range. Also I wonder if they will take into account that black powder, in real life, makes a pretty big smoke cloud after firing from a gun. Concealment, anyone? Oh, more to the point tell players things like this, "Ok you flooded the market, thus making gunpowder nearly worthless and very common once alchemists were able to create and mass produce it themselves. Alkenstar has been trying to keep this system a secret and you ruined their monopoly on the industry so expect a visit soon."

Shadow Lodge

Jeremiziah wrote:
Even easier fix. The instant the gunslinger says "I retire from adventuring", you say "OK, roll a new character". Problem solved.

This. Jesus, do people really want to play Accounting and Bargaining? I'd rather play a broke adventurer who does exciting things than the richest character in the campaign who spends every session pulling gunpowder out of his ass and selling it.


Kthulhu wrote:
This. Jesus, do people really want to play Accounting and Bargaining? I'd rather play a broke adventurer who does exciting things than the richest character in the campaign who spends every session pulling gunpowder out of his ass and selling it.

Unfortunately yes. Some people make characters whose sole driving force is profit. The only reason they adventure is to make as much money as possible from a mercenary perspective, so this kinda makes sense for them. It really sucks, but unfortunately that would be in character.

Shadow Lodge

Jaçinto wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
This. Jesus, do people really want to play Accounting and Bargaining? I'd rather play a broke adventurer who does exciting things than the richest character in the campaign who spends every session pulling gunpowder out of his ass and selling it.
Unfortunately yes. Some people make characters whose sole driving force is profit. The only reason they adventure is to make as much money as possible from a mercenary perspective, so this kinda makes sense for them. It really sucks, but unfortunately that would be in character.

I can understand the CHARACTER'S driving force being profit, but I'm talking about the player. I mean, if you really want to roleplay a merchant, there is probably a system out there designed for it moreso than Pathfinder. A session should involve battles against the forces of evil, not a battle against the backlog of overdue inventory reports.


Kthulhu wrote:
I can understand the CHARACTER'S driving force being profit, but I'm talking about the player. I mean, if you really want to roleplay a merchant, there is probably a system out there designed for it moreso than Pathfinder. A session should involve battles against the forces of evil, not a battle against the backlog of overdue inventory reports.

Oh, well yeah there is a word for those kinds of players. Game breaking d-bags. They suck and just shouldn't play because they ruin the game for anyone else. If someone plans to actually use this exploit for profit, then it is metagaming of the highest caliber and the DM should either immediately NPC the character or metagame right back with the only way to kill a character permanently, which is to tear up the character sheet. Stop looking for exploits and play the roleplaying game for what it is. No one wants munchkins, min maxers, or any garbage players like that. This is not a video game so stop treating it as such. Gunslingers are supposed to be pretty secretive about how guns and their ammo actually work, so why do this if you wanted to play the class? This is like the idiot that plays a monk for the martial arts skills and forgets that they are a very devout religious class like Paladin, Clerics, and Druids. Read the class descriptions people because they are there for a reason. If you can't play the class the way it was designed, then you can't make a character of that class. I'm looking at all you Paladins with stick-up-the-arse syndrome.

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