Samurai First impressions


Samurai Discussion: Round 1

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Ok so I like where they went with this class. A quick note -- the mount ability on page 14 refers to "sharp spell" instead of "share spell".

Also does weapon expertise allow a samurai to take fighter only feats without fighter levels? I read it as such and I'm not so sure I like that -- too many people can do that already (with the magus and eldritch knight). Fighter only feats should be fighter only feats or something needs to be done for the fighter.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Fighter only feats should be fighter only feats or something needs to be done for the fighter.

I have to agree that I'm not a big fan of the encroachment on fighter only feats.


I knew you would be saying that too.

If it was an order ability that would be one thing but I don't like it being a primary feature of all samurai.


Fighter only feats barely made sense when they were a poor excuse for not giving the Fighter class any abilities.

How many Fighter only feats are there anyway? Still the same 3?


Cartigan wrote:

Fighter only feats barely made sense when they were a poor excuse for not giving the Fighter class any abilities.

How many Fighter only feats are there anyway? Still the same 3?

Come on Cartigan keep up! There is weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, disruptive, spellbreaker, teleport tactician, and critical mastery -- I think there might be a few more but I don't remember them.

Oh random idea -- fighters need a feat that increases critical feat's DCs.


Cartigan wrote:
How many Fighter only feats are there anyway? Still the same 3?

4th-level fighter: Shield Specialization

4th-level fighter: Weapon Specialization
6th-level fighter: Disrupting Shot
6th-level fighter: Disruptive
8th-level fighter: Greater Shield Focus
8th-level fighter: Greater Weapon Focus
10th-level fighter: Spellbreaker
12th-level fighter: Greater Shield Specialization
12th-level fighter: Greater Weapon Specialization
12th-level fighter: Penetrating Strike
14th-level fighter: Critical Mastery
16th-level fighter: Greater Penetrating Strike

Liberty's Edge

I think Cavalier was the right way to go, but I would do what they did with Paladin in regards to mount and give the option of having a special bonded weapon instead.

That seems more Samurai, and since it is the same mechanic as used in the paladin should be fine as far as balance.


Propane wrote:
Cartigan wrote:
How many Fighter only feats are there anyway? Still the same 3?

4th-level fighter: Shield Specialization

4th-level fighter: Weapon Specialization
6th-level fighter: Disrupting Shot
6th-level fighter: Disruptive
8th-level fighter: Greater Shield Focus
8th-level fighter: Greater Weapon Focus
10th-level fighter: Spellbreaker
12th-level fighter: Greater Shield Specialization
12th-level fighter: Greater Weapon Specialization
12th-level fighter: Penetrating Strike
14th-level fighter: Critical Mastery
16th-level fighter: Greater Penetrating Strike

I feel slightly stupid we both forgot point blank mastery.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

Fighter only feats barely made sense when they were a poor excuse for not giving the Fighter class any abilities.

How many Fighter only feats are there anyway? Still the same 3?

Come on Cartigan keep up! There is weapon specialization, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization, disruptive, spellbreaker, teleport tactician, and critical mastery -- I think there might be a few more but I don't remember them.

Oh random idea -- fighters need a feat that increases critical feat's DCs.

Ok, so there are twelve, at least 5 of which are stupid.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
ciretose wrote:

I think Cavalier was the right way to go, but I would do what they did with Paladin in regards to mount and give the option of having a special bonded weapon instead.

That seems more Samurai, and since it is the same mechanic as used in the paladin should be fine as far as balance.

I agree with this idea. I really like how they nicely captured the Samurai flavor with the Cavalier mechanics, but I agree that this would make a lot of sense for the Samurai.


Joseph Wilson wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I think Cavalier was the right way to go, but I would do what they did with Paladin in regards to mount and give the option of having a special bonded weapon instead.

That seems more Samurai, and since it is the same mechanic as used in the paladin should be fine as far as balance.

I agree with this idea. I really like how they nicely captured the Samurai flavor with the Cavalier mechanics, but I agree that this would make a lot of sense for the Samurai.

+1, I also don't think the banner makes much sense for a ronin samurai.


Mortagon wrote:
+1, I also don't think the banner makes much sense for a ronin samurai.

Well banners were a really popular and common thing -- so I think it works ok.


My first impressions was I had a feeling it'd be a Cavalier alternate, even though I wish Paizo had the creative drive to make it a Base Class, and more supernatural, like the Final Fantasy/Japanese Anime samurai, making use of ki points as much as Monks and Ninja. I don't even see a Kiai Shout ability for them. Alas, just an alternate warrior breed it has become...

I also don't like the fact they don't have an ability to increase the power of their weapons with ancestral spirits or something, in order for them to not ditch their family katana in favor for the holy keen katana looted off a rival warrior.

And the Ronin banner makes sense if he's leading his own band on the fringes of society.


Joseph Wilson wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I think Cavalier was the right way to go, but I would do what they did with Paladin in regards to mount and give the option of having a special bonded weapon instead.

That seems more Samurai, and since it is the same mechanic as used in the paladin should be fine as far as balance.

I agree with this idea. I really like how they nicely captured the Samurai flavor with the Cavalier mechanics, but I agree that this would make a lot of sense for the Samurai.

+1 agree also, nice feel to it.


So far I really like the way it emulates the traditional historical Samurai more than an anime/shounen Samurai.

I want to give a HUGE +1 to that. Love it.

My normal knee jerk disgust for asian cultured things being better just because they are asian has NOT been set off.

Color me surprised and hopeful.

-Idle

Edit: Historical Samurai were known for their Mounted Archery as well.

Also, agree 100% with the overlap on fighter exclusives- don't give that them, please!


why couldn't we have a modular hybrid of both the historical samurai and the anime samurai that allows you to mix and match aspects as you desire? i would like to see the idea of being able to control how historical or animesque you want it through feature selection. same thing should have happened with the ninja.


IdleMind wrote:

So far I really like the way it emulates the traditional historical Samurai more than an anime/shounen Samurai.

I want to give a HUGE +1 to that. Love it.

My normal knee jerk disgust for asian cultured things being better just because they are asian has NOT been set off.

Color me surprised and hopeful.

-Idle

Edit: Historical Samurai were known for their Mounted Archery as well.

Also, agree 100% with the overlap on fighter exclusives- don't give that them, please!

I think it'd be great for them to have the fighter exclusives, in case someone wanted to have a more martial-oriented Samurai by going Samurai/Fighter


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
why couldn't we have a modular hybrid of both the historical samurai and the anime samurai that allows you to mix and match aspects as you desire? control how historical or how animesque you want it through feature selection.

That was what I was hoping for. Let class choices be chosen, some supernatural, others extraordinary. Like Rogue Talents, Magus Arcana, etc.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
why couldn't we have a modular hybrid of both the historical samurai and the anime samurai that allows you to mix and match aspects as you desire? i would like to see the idea of being able to control how historical or animesque you want it through feature selection. same thing should have happened with the ninja.

To me its an issue of legwork; it's way easier to "soup up" than to "tone down".

I agree with your premise though; of giving everyone what they want. I just think it's better to not be schizophrenic with the direction of it.

-Idle


i see no real point in fighter exclusives being fighter exclusive. i beleive they should have given fighters real class features. pathfinder just ended up giving them weapon hyperspecialization. they are still screwed if they don't get to use the weapon they poured resources into. the weapon groups mean nothing compared to that one weapon you poured every resource you could into. losing that weapon hurts you even worse now. as monster stats assume you will have that main weapon of awesomeness you invested several feats and class abilities into perfecting.


Eh, its a archetype.Not sure why it is being called anything else. The changes are minor most of the new stuff is in the orders.

I am ok with this I am just confused about why it is called anything other then an archetype. It is no where near the level of the anti-paladin which changed almost every ability.

This one changes what amounts to 4


The problem with chasing the anime samurai is that nobody is going to be happy with the end result. Either you make him too strong and everyone gets upset or you keep him constrained and nobody like that version either.

While I'm not a big fan of either the Cavalier or Samurai in terms of baseline gameplay configurations from a stylistic stand point I'm okay with having a eastern themed horseman as a balance to the western themed cavalier.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Hey there folks,

A few quick notes.

1. The line between an archtype and an alternate class is a razor thin one in our book. It primarily refers to whether or not the class gets a full treatment as well as how much of it was replaced. It is a definition that is still in refinement. Try not to get too bogged down on the concept.

2. When looking at the ninja and the samurai, we wanted one with a more magic bent and one with a more historical bent. As you might be able to tell, the samurai went a bit more historical (hence the mount, the archery, banner, and a number of other small touches). Being as this is in ultimate combat, it makes for a better fit.

Just some thoughts.. it is very unlikely that the samurai (being based off the cavalier chassis) is going to get a host of magical powers.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Just talked things over with my friend who's writing her paper on the history of Japan. She's a Little sad that the Samurai didnt get any of the crazy Sword abilities that the warriors were famous for ( IE: using your razor honed blade to cut through another blade)

I can understand that there was a need for a more realistic class... But it seems to me like a re-skinned Cavalier, way too similar To justify a whole new class.

It seems Like the Samurai gave up the Cavalier's tactics abilities in exchange for even MORE focus on challenge... something that an archtype could easily do.

Every class should be Recognisable by their signature abilities. The Barbarian rages, the Fighter takes advantage of feats, the rogue sneak attacks, clerics heal...and there are different spell lists for different types of casters...
The samurai has an order, just like the cavalier, and can challenge, just like the cavalier... the only difference being that the samurai has a slightly more powerful challenge than its forbearer.

Silver Crusade

Last Stand put a huge smile on my face. That is so going to make for some player's most memorable gaming moment.


Love the historical feel of the samurai. One observation is that it is difficult to transfer a samurai from previous additions, mainly because of not getting Two Weapon Fighting. Perhaps there could be an option for that?

For the Orders, I wonder if there could be different Master types that would confer the different benefits, and of course Ronin could still be an option. It might offer a few more options as far as customization. It wouldn't require too much into specific masters: but instead have a Strategist master that would give benefits on battlefield manipulation. A Diplomat master would give leadership type benefits still in line with the Cavalier Orders. Mainly, I would like to see more than 2 options.

Finally, I'm confused on the 20th level ability. Of course haven't playtested yet, but on a read-through: it has the potential to be ridiculously overpowered. They deal minimum damage (combined potentially with the DR 6/- you have through the Order of the Warrior ability) and you gain super Die Hard? Perhaps gaining Fast Healing or increased Damage Reduction or both would be more balanced.

In total: I think this is an incredibly well done class that I would put into a campaign today, but those might be the tweaks I would look for.


I think the Samurai is honestly the closest to being balanced of the new Classes being previewed/tested... though I feel like it IS clearly more powerful the the Cavalier:

Resolve: This doesn`t need to re-charge. Allow `Extra Resolve` Feats, but I don`t see how it needs to re-charge. At the very least, the conditions for defeating an enemy should be VERY strict, not open to interpretation.... The Samurai THEMSELF need to deliver the killing blow vs. the enemy (AND deliver the majority of HP damage?), not benefit from allies doing it for them.
Weapon Expertise: I don`t think they need it. Not EVERY Samurai was really a Quickdraw type. If Samurai want Weapon Spec, they can take levels of Fighter and get it. Why should Samurai get this but not Cavaliers? Quickdraw for free really further makes them the optimal `Switch Hitter`, Full Attacking Archery while Mounted and insta-switching to Melee. Quickdraw is easy to get, any Samurai who wants it can do so. Samurai Switch-Hitting is just going to be BROADLY more useful the Cavaliers` Charge, so making it extra easy for them to do so just isn`t needed IMHO.

Order: Warrior
DR: I think this would be more balanced as converting it to Non-Lethal Damage which doesn`t take effect until the Samurai is unconscious or the Challenge is over... Which is more like Barbarian Rage HPs in-combat, but nicer since it isn`t real damage and plenty of effects can negate/recover Nonlethal damage with a small amount of effort.
Honor in All Things: I don`t see why it isn`t a scaling bonus, rather than starting out so high. I also don`t see why it needs to apply to so much stuff... I mean why should it apply to a Samurai2/Rogue15`s pick pocket attempts? Samurai are not Luck Oracles.
Way of the Samurai: What if this required a Move Action to `complete activation` (after the 1 minute duration starts ticking) and applied to the next roll made by the Samurai? Also, I don`t know why it needs to apply to so much stuff, keep it combat/save focused, Samurai have enough skills they can be normally competent at, they don`t need best-of-3 skill checks. They already have a bonus related to their Order-specific skills, which should be sufficient IMHO.

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Honestly, I think Samurai as written is almost perfect to represent more of a Mongol/Barbarian type Mounted Rider/Leader type (with bow focus rather than charging)... this could cover both Kellid/Hallit types in Avistan and other tribes in Casmaron. I could see there being an order especially for this (actually, multiple ones, with different attitudes/alignment tendencies), basically still within the social mileu of their culture (unlike Ronin) but not as strict as the Warrior Order (or more idiosyncratic) to match their barbarian culture. That would make the (Alt)Class alot more versatile, while simultaneously better expressing cultural roles which I presume are present in Golarion.


I like it and agree pretty much with quandary. it has a good feel to it and represents it's role well.

incidentally I think this could easily be relabeled. nob
e or aristocrat. it has a good mounted melee combatant feel and seems tailored to switch hit.

I'd also like the ronin, it has a good feel to it and in like the auto challenge back thing.


I actually like the fact that this concept Is clearly based on the cavalier. I think the ninja and gunslinger changed too much to be considered an alternate class. I will say the Samurai looks slightly more powerful than the core class but I'm not sure it's a horrible thing since I feel the cavalier is slightly on the weak side. I do believe, however, the new orders should be available to the core cavalier also to help balance it out. Giving the samurai (and ninja) access to new class features and all the old features reeks of power creep (I'm specifically talking about the orders and the ninja tricks/rogue talents).

Dark Archive

lol, ever since cavalier came out ive been saying samurai was gonna be an archetype!

my psychic powers do work.

now wheres my gladiator archetype

but i still think mount should be tradable for a weapon bond


ciretose wrote:
...do what they did with Paladin in regards to mount and give the option of having a special bonded weapon instead.
Name Violation wrote:
...but i still think mount should be tradable for a weapon bond
Razz wrote:
I also don't like the fact they don't have an ability to increase the power of their weapons with ancestral spirits or something, in order for them to not ditch their family katana in favor for the holy keen katana looted off a rival warrior.

+1

Aside from this, I like it a LOT. (I felt the same way about vanilla cavalier, but I'm sure that looked far too paladin-esque to implement.) I wish the ninja had gotten a similar treatment.


i can see how the idea of a weapon bond instead of mount is attractive, but i think it just doesn´t work with the samurai-cavalier. they already have a challenge ability that is much more usable than smite, along with a slurry of other abilities increasing their combat abilities (many re-roll abilities for samurai).

weapon bond is a paladin and inquisitor/magus thing, and this isn´t based on either. i CAN easily see an alternate class inquisitor/magus done up in the Tian Setting Book, maybe drawing on oracle mysteries rather than domains, but flavored with being inspired by ´ancestors´ rather then deities per se... maybe even with a Witch Familiar+Patron, who knows?

´ancestor weapons´ can be modelled in other ways, from the trait, to auto-powering-up weapons (whose effects can count to WBL). weapon bond is too ´Wu Xia´, and Jason´s been clear that the flavor intent here is more historical-believable than mystical anime.


Quandary wrote:
Jason´s been clear that the flavor intent here is more historical-believable than mystical anime.

I respect history, don't get me wrong. However it's already been said: it's silly to think that a samurai should throw out his katana received at level 1 for a better one. Such weapons were typically handed down, or made for special reasons, were they not? They often came with certificates that showed transference of ownership and all that jazz - they were hugely important, and carried more or less significance depending on the era you look at.

So making sure that your samurai sticks with his family daisho should be an important factor. Saying you're 'keeping it real' doesn't work here because it creates a paradox. To advance in a game with magic and supernatural forces, you ditch your priceless weapon for one with better numbers because you can't make it better. How is THAT historically accurate?

It can be based on historic fact, but should be made [role] playable.

Silver Crusade

Foghammer wrote:
I respect history, don't get me wrong. However it's already been said: it's silly to think that a samurai should throw out his katana received at level 1 for a better one. Such weapons were typically handed down, or made for special reasons, were they not?

To be completely honest, this is something I would really like to see dealt with, but not just for the Samurai. The idea of a signature/inherited/just-plain-deeply-personal-attachment weapon would be really nice to be provided for for all mundane warrior types, even if it fell under Optional Rules.

Here's hoping something like that is touched on in Ultimate Combat, since that would really be the most fitting book for it.


Mikaze wrote:
Foghammer wrote:
I respect history, don't get me wrong. However it's already been said: it's silly to think that a samurai should throw out his katana received at level 1 for a better one. Such weapons were typically handed down, or made for special reasons, were they not?

To be completely honest, this is something I would really like to see dealt with, but not just for the Samurai. The idea of a signature/inherited/just-plain-deeply-personal-attachment weapon would be really nice to be provided for for all mundane warrior types, even if it fell under Optional Rules.

Here's hoping something like that is touched on in Ultimate Combat, since that would really be the most fitting book for it.

maybe the Heirloom weapon trait from the Adventurers armory?


You don´t have to throw out weapons to get better ones... Adding weapon enhancements is part of the game.
What happens when ancestral weapon is sundered?
You can´t make class features PERMANENTLY dependent on a physical item not being lost or destroyed.

There just seem countless methods to make ´swords with stories´ part of the game, crunch or fluff/plot-line wise. THe Samurai is clearly cleaving very close to Cavaliers, so I just don´t see this happening for it. /shrug

I agree with Mikaze though, ancestral weapons is hardly some unique trope to Samurai, approaches to depict it would be just as welcomed for Cavaliers/Paladins/Fighters/even Barbarians. Like I suggested, if you want magic powers coming from it, it´s pretty easy to just have them come in when appropriate, and subtract from PC´s WBL as if the enhancement was higher... If the weapon is destroyed, they are now missing out on that wealth, so you know you can comfortably send more loot their way. Or some other mechanism, who knows. I also agree, this DOES seem the perfect book in which to introduce such a sub-system...


Kenjishinomouri wrote:


maybe the Heirloom weapon trait from the Adventurers armory?

Y'know, we've never fooled with traits. I'm not sure that would be a unanimous vote, there. But then, I would hazard a guess that the people who use them would say "trait taxing!" ...or something like that.

Regardless, that doesn't seem like a graceful way to handle it to me.

Dark Archive

slayer_of_gellcor wrote:
Love the historical feel of the samurai. One observation is that it is difficult to transfer a samurai from previous additions, mainly because of not getting Two Weapon Fighting. Perhaps there could be an option for that?

It was a rare samurai that fighted with two weapons (the katana is, for most purposes, a 1½-hander which requires training to use efficiently in 1 hand) and most of those that did used the wakizashi to parry, not attack, so I'm fine with 2WF not being a stable of the class...remember, you can always pick it as a feat, if you want to be one of the rare ones. If you give it to the class as a feature, you shoehorn all samurai into being 2WFers...

But another thing on samurai...Any alignment? The description even says they are loyal, honorbound and whatnot...I guess CE can be honorable and loyal to some extent...


I appreciate the concept. Absolutely pro Fighter-Feats for the samurai (in respect to weapon expertise)


Following up on my sentiment that the Samurai is (fixably) over-powered compared to Cavalier, specifically re: the Quickdraw Feat... Just look at their weapon proficincies, including Katana/Bastard Sword proficiency for free is like another Free Feat. I get why that´s desired, but to me that just re-inforces that they don´t need ANOTHER free Feat in Quickdraw (Wpn Expertise). Obviously, that´s for 1 weapon only, but that´s all you need, and on top of free Exotic Proficiencies, I just don´t think they need it. Not all Samurai are jacked-out ronin ready for death at every turn, most are more the stolid, frat boy type of loyal warrior. I think it´s more flavorful retaining the difference that SOME Samurai may be Quickdraw fiends ready for danger at any turn, while others are a bit more used to a predictable life.

...But I also think this free Exotic Proficiency should be taken into account looking at the balance of the rest of their abilities... i.e., Maybe it´s not TOO much on it´s own, but if the rest of the abilities are ALL tending to lean on the more powerful side, things need to be reigned in a bit. And perhaps Katana/Bastard Sword proficiency (Exotic) ISN´T actually needed, as Bruno points out above they can be used 2 Handed like most Samurai actually did without Exotic Proficiency, and those who want to learn 1 Handed / 2WF style can take Exotic Proficiency, just like other Bastard Sword fighters do.


ciretose wrote:

I think Cavalier was the right way to go, but I would do what they did with Paladin in regards to mount and give the option of having a special bonded weapon instead.

That seems more Samurai, and since it is the same mechanic as used in the paladin should be fine as far as balance.

+1. Generally speaking, I hope there are options in the book to swap the mount for every Cavalier (Auras like the 3.5 marshal would be great, as well an Ancestral Daisho for the Samurai).

About the quickdraw: I appreciate a lot the fact that Samurai is not only Katanas. IHO allowing him to be versatile with "his" weapons is a good idea.

Said this, I wouldn't mind a Samurai order more "supernatural" with few ki tricks (say, gain ki and 3 ki powers as order abilities)- but I appreciate priority on a more "historical" one.

Grand Lodge

It should be an archetype, or perhaps only an order.

  • Class skills: I see that the order of the warrior (which it seems almost every samurai is expected to take) adds Knowledge (nobility) and (history). I think I'd prefer these to stay with the samurai class, or whatever it ends up being. I've mentioned one reason below. Some Perform skills could also be appropriate.
  • Weapon and Armour Proficiency: I'm sad that the glaive and shortsword need separate proficiencies when made by Japanese people.
  • The ronin order? Surely there's another way to handle this?
  • Resolve seems to cancel an awful lot of conditions and bad situations, with quite a few daily uses after a few levels, compared to the value of the Tactician ability (having said that, I haven't seen particularly effective use of the latter, which might change my opinion). I've seen very, very similar defensive power creep when we briefly had the Book of 9 Swords in a campaign, and what it does to viability of other classes. At least follow the design of the paladin, which defers comparable abilities to 2nd and 3rd level.
  • Weapon expertise looks well thought out, perhaps weaker than the charge abilities he gives up.
  • Ronin: Pretty much all its abilities stack yet more defenses with Resolve. What about skills - does the ronin suddenly forget what he knew about the nobility, or does he keep his warrior order class skills and add more for being ronin?


Quandary wrote:
Following up on my sentiment that the Samurai is (fixably) over-powered compared to Cavalier, specifically re: the Quickdraw Feat... Just look at their weapon proficincies, including Katana/Bastard Sword proficiency for free is like another Free Feat.

No. It isn't. The Bastard Sword is martial weapon. Using it one-handed is exotic. Which is a half-ass feat anyway.


Bruno Kristensen wrote:


It was a rare samurai that fighted with two weapons (the katana is, for most purposes, a 1½-hander which requires training to use efficiently in 1 hand) and most of those that did used the wakizashi to parry, not attack, so I'm fine with 2WF not being a stable of the class

I guess my concern is for converting over characters from 3.5. If you have a samurai that you've played for years now in 3.5 using two weapon fighting (without needing the prerequisite dex) that will be something that you lose. Understand completely on the historical reasons of how rare dual-wielding samurai were, but as a player that would be my concern, or perhaps better stated: an opportunity to win me over.


slayer_of_gellcor wrote:
Bruno Kristensen wrote:


It was a rare samurai that fighted with two weapons (the katana is, for most purposes, a 1½-hander which requires training to use efficiently in 1 hand) and most of those that did used the wakizashi to parry, not attack, so I'm fine with 2WF not being a stable of the class
I guess my concern is for converting over characters from 3.5. If you have a samurai that you've played for years now in 3.5 using two weapon fighting (without needing the prerequisite dex) that will be something that you lose. Understand completely on the historical reasons of how rare dual-wielding samurai were, but as a player that would be my concern, or perhaps better stated: an opportunity to win me over.

OTOH, you can just play 3.X samurai (Oriantal Adventures one or the lame Complete Warrior one) with current fighter and do better.

Moreover, the class does not make TWF impossible - just not easier. You can TWF with samurai anyway.


Kaiyanwang wrote:
slayer_of_gellcor wrote:


I guess my concern is for converting over characters from 3.5. If you have a samurai that you've played for years now in 3.5 using two weapon fighting (without needing the prerequisite dex) that will be something that you lose. Understand completely on the historical reasons of how rare dual-wielding samurai were, but as a player that would be my concern, or perhaps better stated: an opportunity to win me over.

OTOH, you can just play 3.X samurai (Oriantal Adventures one or the lame Complete Warrior one) with current fighter and do better.

Moreover, the class does not make TWF impossible - just not easier. You can TWF with samurai anyway.

You COULD....but I'm with Slayer on this one. The Oriental Adventures Samurai WAS the Samurai (as opposed to the Complete Warrior one). Yeah...you can still dual wield, but I think I'd like to actually be given that opportunity through the Samurai, as the Ranger does with his multiple fighting variant styles.


I like the leaning more towards a historical focus as opposed to mystical/magical powers.

Being a Cavalier variant/archetype makes complete sense, as it fits the samurai quite well.

I'm not sold on the special mount. Yes, samurai were excellent riders and it was an important part of their image, but I feel that's best handled as a well-trained combat mount and more focus on the samurai as a skilled rider (rather than a beefy mount). Most of what I have read about samurai horsemanship (which I will admit is quite limited) doesn't really exhibit much in the way of the samurai's "bond" with his/her horse. It focused a great deal on their amazing riding skills and what they were able to accomplish while mounted.

Also, if this will be a more historical approach to the samurai, some kind of option really needs to be there regarding their katana (and wakizashi to a slightly lesser degree). I don't mean in terms of the weapon stats itself (using the bastard sword stats works just fine for me), but in terms of how central to the samurai it is. As others have mentioned, I find it very unlikely that samurai would be switching katanas often when they happen to find one with a new ability or power. Losing one is a huge dishonor, no matter how it was lost, and typically forced the samurai to go to insane lengths to get it back (even seppuku wouldn't likely be sufficient, as it could easily be a seen as 'giving up'). The 3.x option of adding abilities to the sword, while a little more magicky than what may be the objective with this class, would seem to still be appropriate here.

Concerns about losing TWF and such can easily be altered later via other orders. Frankly, samurai are the perfect candidates for more and varied orders. The L5R clans from 3.0 Oriental Adventures are a good example. New orders (or call them clans or schools) can each focus on different types of abilities and skills. This area may be better covered in world-specific books (like the upcoming Tian Xia book), but it could fit just as well into UC.


Merlin_47 wrote:

You COULD....but I'm with Slayer on this one. The Oriental Adventures Samurai WAS the Samurai (as opposed to the Complete Warrior one). Yeah...you can still dual wield, but I think I'd like to actually be given that opportunity through the Samurai, as the Ranger does with his multiple fighting variant styles.

This could be "fixed" with an order maybe. An order more dedicated to find a "true perfection" in the art of war than to be subjected to the rule of a noble.

Member of the order could select from a very limited list of feats, included the TWF line.

Just to say - I'm actually not sure if this could be balanced (in a sense or in another: feats without prereqs BUT very likely to be taken too late).


Kaiyanwang wrote:


This could be "fixed" with an order maybe. An order more dedicated to find a "true perfection" in the art of war than to be subjected to the rule of a noble.

Member of the order could select from a very limited list of feats, included the TWF line.

Just to say - I'm actually not sure if this could be balanced (in a sense or in another: feats without prereqs BUT very likely to be taken too late).

Actually, that would be good. I could see different orders focusing on different styles of combat. I hope to see something like that in round two of the testing. Actually...if I knew where to suggest that, I'd be happy to do so and actually give you credit for it, Kaiyanwang. It's a good idea! I'm just sorry I didn't come up with it first.


Merlin_47 wrote:
Kaiyanwang wrote:


This could be "fixed" with an order maybe. An order more dedicated to find a "true perfection" in the art of war than to be subjected to the rule of a noble.

Member of the order could select from a very limited list of feats, included the TWF line.

Just to say - I'm actually not sure if this could be balanced (in a sense or in another: feats without prereqs BUT very likely to be taken too late).

Actually, that would be good. I could see different orders focusing on different styles of combat. I hope to see something like that in round two of the testing. Actually...if I knew where to suggest that, I'd be happy to do so and actually give you credit for it, Kaiyanwang. It's a good idea! I'm just sorry I didn't come up with it first.

I'm not actually sure it's a good idea for a number of reasons. The ones listed above, and the fact that "dude dedicating his life to weapon perfection" sounds like fighter to me.

OTOH Rangers and Some Monk strongly disagree with this :)

For the credit.. good rule feedback > credit. I Don't care about credit, care about good products but thank you ;)

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