Taking 10 on skill checks


Rules Questions


For what skills can you not take 10?

It seems that you should always take 10 whenever possible to avoid screwing yourself over due to a low roll, assuming you are not distracted/etc.

Sovereign Court

Question wrote:

For what skills can you not take 10?

It seems that you should always take 10 whenever possible to avoid screwing yourself over due to a low roll, assuming you are not distracted/etc.

Maybe missing something but I think it is less what skills can you not take 10 on, and more WHEN can you not take 10.

As in when:
You are not in immediate danger, or distracted.

Other than that I think it is good to go. If taking 10 will let you succeed then by all means....it is to help with just plain old "speeding up the game" mentality. Not much sucks more than needing an 8 and having a cold Die that won't roll over a 5 for 10 consecutive rolls.


Question wrote:
For what skills can you not take 10?

James Jacobs on taking 10:

"Taking 10" is supposed to be something you do when you're good enough at a skill that, normally, you WON'T fail. It's only if you rush or are distracted that you'll normally fail a skill that you're normally so good at that you can basically always succeed at it.

Also, taking 10 reduces die rolling. Which is a way to speed up game play. Over the course of a session, replacing numerous die rolls with taking 10 can add up.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/take10OnMagicItemCreation&page=1&source=search#11

If you are good enough at a skill where an AVERAGE roll will suffice, Taking 10 is an option that should be allowed as long as you are not distracted or in immediate danger.


I was under the impression that taking 10 was the equivalent of rolling ten times (or, taking your time to do something).

Works great for picking a lock (of course, if no orcs are charging you when you do it), but wouldn't work for skills with an immediate result, like jumping over a pit or using Knowledge(religion).

The way we play it, taking 10 takes 10x more time than it would regularly take. So say you've failed your Knowledge(religion)check and decided to do some reasearch in the church library you just happen to be in. You'd roll with a +2 bonus and it would take like 10 minutes of researching. Failed again? Then take 10, and take 100 minutes (or even 20 and take 200 minutes) to research the library carefully to almost guarantee finding what you're looking for. Again, all of this doesn't work if there are orcs in the library, lol...

Ultradan

Grand Lodge

Wait, I'm new at these rules, but a group that is in a dungeon comes upon a locked door. If there are no monsters about, the rogue can simply take 10 and unlock the door? Or, basically he can try as many times as he likes to unlock the door? In 2ed, once a thief fails his attempt to unlock a door, he can longer try to unlock it, same goes for traps, etc. Pathfinder rules differ here?


Ultradan wrote:

I was under the impression that taking 10 was the equivalent of rolling ten times (or, taking your time to do something).

Ultradan

People confuse 'take 10' and 'take 20'.. blame WotC's use of similar words.. but it's D&D where 'level' has like 8 different meanings.

-James

Grand Lodge

nogoodscallywag wrote:
Pathfinder rules differ here?

Yes, most skills have a listing if they allow a retry. In the old version, the idea was, if you fail, the lock is beyond your skill. Gain a level and try again. However, since 3E, opening locks has been a re-try skill. The lock is not necessarily beyond your skill, you just need to spend more time studying it and making multiple attempts until you succeed. Some high-quality locks may still be beyond your skill. Also, taking 10 (or even 20) may not provide a high enough result to bypass the lock. Even Disable Device is a retry skill. Just keep in mind that failing by too much could set off the trap anyway.


Always good to get the rules quoted in this particular discussion--it's been coming up for going on twelve years now...

PRD wrote:
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.

Summary: You can take 10 any time you're not in danger or such unless a skill specifically says otherwise (for example, Use Magic Device specifically states in the Special section "You cannot take 10 with this skill." Taking 10 takes as long as any normal use of the skill, no extra time required.

PRD wrote:

Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you a d20 roll enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).

Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).

Summary: You can only take 20 when you're not in danger, you have 20 times as long as normal, failure does not have a penalty. Failing to open a lock has no penalty (unless the lock itself breaks your picks or some such) while Climbing has a penalty listed.


You can take 10 on any skill as long as it does not say otherwise in the skill description (See Use Magic Device).


So i could take 10 on knowledge checks when trying to figure out the weaknesses of a monster, assuming i was nto distracted?

Contributor

Question wrote:
So i could take 10 on knowledge checks when trying to figure out the weaknesses of a monster, assuming i was nto distracted?

Read the "Try Again" entry at the bottom of the Knowledge skill.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Question wrote:
So i could take 10 on knowledge checks when trying to figure out the weaknesses of a monster, assuming i was nto distracted?
Read the "Try Again" entry at the bottom of the Knowledge skill.

Try Again

No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

Uhhh so anything that doesnt allow trying again disallows taking 10?


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Question wrote:
So i could take 10 on knowledge checks when trying to figure out the weaknesses of a monster, assuming i was nto distracted?
Read the "Try Again" entry at the bottom of the Knowledge skill.

Not sure how this matters here.

You certainly could elect to take 10 on a knowledge skill.

Meanwhile trying to see what you can recall during combat might be considered rushed/distracted.

Scenario A: You are planning on delving into a vampire's lair. You ask the DM what you know about their weaknesses, etc. You're asked for a knowledge religion roll and elect to take 10.

Scenario B: You're walking along when something comes out of the shadows. You roll for initiative. The DM describes the creature and lets you make a knowledge religion check to determine what you know about it beyond what you can see. You can't elect to take 10 as you are both rushed and threatened!

-James


Question wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Question wrote:
So i could take 10 on knowledge checks when trying to figure out the weaknesses of a monster, assuming i was nto distracted?
Read the "Try Again" entry at the bottom of the Knowledge skill.
Uhhh so anything that doesnt allow trying again disallows taking 10?

While I am also a little confused by Sean's remark, disallowing Take 10 for non-retry checks is not right. I remember a specific post by Sean about Taking 10 for Magic Item Creation (which you cannot retry). You can use Take 10 for Magic Item Creation.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/magicItemCreationAndCasterLevel&page=1&source=search#33

about half way down the page.

Liberty's Edge

I believe he means that it is a check to see if you know about a specific thing in a broad knowledge category. It is a chance based on how skilled you are in that subject. I may know a lot about history in general, but if I never studied about a specific topic, then no amount of time I spent pondering it will help. That's what it means. You roll your random d20+skill to see if at some point you learned something about a certain thing, not having anything to do with how distracted you are. It's a just a "do I know about this?" check.


Shar Tahl wrote:
I believe he means that it is a check to see if you know about a specific thing in a broad knowledge category. It is a chance based on how skilled you are in that subject. I may know a lot about history in general, but if I never studied about a specific topic, then no amount of time I spent pondering it will help. That's what it means. You roll your random d20+skill to see if at some point you learned something about a certain thing, not having anything to do with how distracted you are. It's a just a "do I know about this?" check.

I get that but I failed to see how that was relevant to allowing or disallowing a Take 10.

When Question asked if he could Take 10 on a Knowledge check, Sean said look at the Try Again entry at the bottom of the Knowledge Skill description. It says nothing pertaining to not being able to Take 10, so why bring up the Try Again entry at all.

Just a little confusing. I think Question thought the same thing as me. Sean's reply did not really answer Question's question.

Contributor

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sorry, I was VERY distracted when I read what you said. My comment actually has nothing to do with the Take 10 rule. My apologies! I failed my own roll because I couldn't Take 10!

Yes, you can Take 10 on Knowledge checks, so long as you are not distracted.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Sorry, I was VERY distracted when I read what you said. My comment actually has nothing to do with the Take 10 rule. My apologies! I failed my own roll because I couldn't Take 10!

Yes, you can Take 10 on Knowledge checks, so long as you are not distracted.

So the bard's Lore Master ability that says that at 5th level he can take 10 in any Knowledge skill he has ranks in, is not really an ability at all, if everybody can do it?


Personally I prefer knowledge checks without take 10s

if everyone can do that, then everyone can guess baseline facts about everything. Knowledge seems a bit more interesting if a given person knows more about some things and less about others, within a given field.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Zaister wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Sorry, I was VERY distracted when I read what you said. My comment actually has nothing to do with the Take 10 rule. My apologies! I failed my own roll because I couldn't Take 10!

Yes, you can Take 10 on Knowledge checks, so long as you are not distracted.

So the bard's Lore Master ability that says that at 5th level he can take 10 in any Knowledge skill he has ranks in, is not really an ability at all, if everybody can do it?

Outside of Combat yes, but Bards can take 10 while distracted and Threatened which is an ability worth something in and of itself.

inshort anyone can sit around and ponder about Kobolds and what they can do, but when a Kobold throws a bear on a spring at someone, they're going to be distracted and way too adrenaline rushed to remember that Kobolds can't throw bears, and that they're very good at trap making, and that their eggs come out in random chromatic colours.

Bards are genreally assumed to know a little bit of everything, so taking ten makes sense.

Grand Lodge

Combat is pretty much the definition of immediate danger. We always consider taking 10 to be off the table once initiative has been rolled. Depending on the situation taking 10 might also be off the table scene by scene at any point. If the purpose of the roll involves dramatic tension, taking 10 is pretty much not compatible with that.

You could consider taking 10 to be comfortable routine while taking 20 is focused dedication and having time to do your absolute best.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Karjak Rustscale wrote:
Zaister wrote:
So the bard's Lore Master ability that says that at 5th level he can take 10 in any Knowledge skill he has ranks in, is not really an ability at all, if everybody can do it?
Outside of Combat yes, but Bards can take 10 while distracted and Threatened which is an ability worth something in and of itself.

The Lore Master ability says nothing about the bard being allowed to take 10 when distracted. Usually if an ability allows that, it is stated explicitly (e.g. swim or climb speed)

Dark Archive

Karjak Rustscale wrote:


inshort anyone can sit around and ponder about Kobolds and what they can do, but when a Kobold throws a bear on a spring at someone, they're going to be distracted and way too adrenaline rushed to remember that Kobolds can't throw bears, and that they're very good at trap making, and that their eggs come out in random chromatic colours.

/Kobold on

That is the Bestest Trap! Now I have to try that one!!

/Kobold off

thankyou for the fun idea for a low level trap.

Liberty's Edge

There is a certain silliness here with the no retry rule.

Imagine I had a PC who could make his Knowledge: Monster ID roll if he took 10 but because of the situation, he makes his roll in combat instead and rolls a 2, which results in a failure. He then permanently (until his next level or until he hits a library) doesn't know something that he would have known if he had thought about it before and outside of the most recent combat.

In my view, it's fine to say that the stress of combat (for non-Lore Masters) is enough to forget some details but I think that once the person with the Knowledge ranks drops out of combat, they should get any additional information that taking 10 would have yielded. They don't get a re-roll but when they get a chance to examine the smoking remains, the details come back to them.

As a GM, I would say something like, "You're sure you heard about this creature somewhere but you can't remember right now." (i.e. if you took 10 you'd know something) and then after the combat I would say something like, "Once your heart stops pounding and you get a good look at the creature you realize it is a such-and-such (and whatever details they would get from their take 10 result)."

Scarab Sages

Greycloak of Bowness wrote:

There is a certain silliness here with the no retry rule.

Imagine I had a PC who could make his Knowledge: Monster ID roll if he took 10 but because of the situation, he makes his roll in combat instead and rolls a 2, which results in a failure. He then permanently (until his next level or until he hits a library) doesn't know something that he would have known if he had thought about it before and outside of the most recent combat.

In my view, it's fine to say that the stress of combat (for non-Lore Masters) is enough to forget some details but I think that once the person with the Knowledge ranks drops out of combat, they should get any additional information that taking 10 would have yielded. They don't get a re-roll but when they get a chance to examine the smoking remains, the details come back to them.

As a GM, I would say something like, "You're sure you heard about this creature somewhere but you can't remember right now." (i.e. if you took 10 you'd know something) and then after the combat I would say something like, "Once your heart stops pounding and you get a good look at the creature you realize it is a such-and-such (and whatever details they would get from their take 10 result)."

There is a certain RL situation to back this up. While running a game recently, we had occasion to use coup-de-grace rules (which we hardly ever get to use). During the game, let’s just say…we did it very wrong. I *knew* there was something wrong about it, but couldn’t figure it out. But we were in the game, and didn’t want to take the time to look it up. This is the equivalent of rolling a 2 in the above example.

On the drive home, I remembered the whole rule (i.e., “take 10”). Again, this is without having to look it up.

So the point is, there is a RL precedent for what Greycloak of Bowness is talking about. And it happened with regards to Pathfinder, and just happened a couple weeks ago. ;)


jtokay wrote:

During the game, let’s just say…we did it very wrong. I *knew* there was something wrong about it, but couldn’t figure it out. But we were in the game, and didn’t want to take the time to look it up. This is the equivalent of rolling a 2 in the above example.

On the drive home, I remembered the whole rule (i.e., “take 10”). Again, this is without having to look it up.

So the point is, there is a RL precedent for what Greycloak of Bowness is talking about. And it happened with regards to Pathfinder, and just happened a couple weeks ago. ;)

Maybe you gained enough experience during your game to level and added a rank to the appropriate knowledge skill on the way home? ;)


Here's a new question.

When you are about to roll a Knowledge skill check, can you cast buff spells (Touch of Destiny(insight bonus), Prayer (luck), Heroism (morale) and Fox's Cunning (enhancement)) AND THEN Take 10? Some of those spells last a few minutes.

Just a thought.


Raging Hobbit wrote:

Here's a new question.

When you are about to roll a Knowledge skill check, can you cast buff spells (Touch of Destiny(insight bonus), Prayer (luck), Heroism (morale) and Fox's Cunning (enhancement)) AND THEN Take 10? Some of those spells last a few minutes.

Just a thought.

Sure, why not? Even if the spells only lasted a ronud you could do it. You can toss in a Guidance (0-level, competence) spell while you're at it.


ZappoHisbane wrote:
Sure, why not?

Wow so that's like taking 18 instead (if you are an advanced sorcerer with the Destined bloodline)!

Liberty's Edge

Zaister wrote:
Karjak Rustscale wrote:
Zaister wrote:
So the bard's Lore Master ability that says that at 5th level he can take 10 in any Knowledge skill he has ranks in, is not really an ability at all, if everybody can do it?
Outside of Combat yes, but Bards can take 10 while distracted and Threatened which is an ability worth something in and of itself.
The Lore Master ability says nothing about the bard being allowed to take 10 when distracted. Usually if an ability allows that, it is stated explicitly (e.g. swim or climb speed)

This is what makes what SKR said off a bit. It makes this ability near useless other than the once a day take 20. In my games, I like to run by the book rules, and this one, I believe, is meant to not be able to take 10. Allowing take 10 for all totally takes something special away from the bards and their story telling/ know a lot of stuff ways.


Shar Tahl wrote:


This is what makes what SKR said off a bit. It makes this ability near useless other than the once a day take 20. In my games, I like to run by the book rules, and this one, I believe, is meant to not be able to take 10. Allowing take 10 for all totally takes something special away from the bards and their story telling/ know a lot of stuff ways.

This seems fairly convoluted and reaching to me.

The more simple solution is that the loremaster ability allows Bards to take10 on knowledge skills in combat/periods of distraction, much like the other skill mastery-type abilities out there.

Meanwhile the skills section was very clear (in the case of UMD) when you cannot use the take 10 rule on a skill ever...

-James

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