Social skills used on player-characters


Rules Questions


I'm a bit confused by the social skills in pathfinder and whether or not they can be used on PC's.

Diplomacy is somewhat clear, saying that "you can change the initial attitudes of non-player characters". To me this means that it can be used only on NPC’s… I’ve never seen the “hostile” or “friendly” attitude rules assigned to a PC out of character. Do I understand this correctly?

The first section of Intimidate (not demoralize) seems to function the same way since the skill references the NPC attitudes "friendly" and "unfriendly". Am I wrong in assuming it can't be used against PC's?

Also, if intimidate can be used against a PC to shift their attitude, is it considered a fear effect?

Bluff seems to have no clarification on whether it can force one PC to believe another. It seems rather unfair to force a PC to believe something with a single die roll - not even low to mid level magic is that potent in the long term.

There was a great line in the 3.5 DMG on page 128 under NPC Attitudes, "NPCs can never influence PC attitudes. The players always make their characters' decisions" - but I can't find anything like this in the pathfinder rulebook.

Help!


Neither Diplomacy nor Intimidate can affect a players attitude, but intimidate can demoralize.
Bluff can work on pcs as far as the sense motive skill is involved. If you bluff, the PCs must sense motive and roleplay the outcome properly.

Liberty's Edge

DireLemming wrote:
Bluff seems to have no clarification on whether it can force one PC to believe another. It seems rather unfair to force a PC to believe something with a single die roll - not even low to mid level magic is that potent in the long term.

Well...PCs tend to know one another well, and that makes it much harder to lie to one another. If you've lied to me time and again before, I'm far less likely to believe what you tell me.

If someone's Bluff check exceeds my Sense Motive after modifiers, then they seem sincere to me, and I don't detect any deception on their part. If the person I'm interacting with is known to me as a backstabbing weasel, I might be thinking, "Fine. I don't know for certain if he's lying to me, and his story seems plausible, but at some point I expect that I'm going to find out that all-important detail that he left out, and dealing with this guy is going to bite me in the ass. As usual".

As a DM, I don't think you should force a player to feel one way or another, or to believe one thing or another. Just let them know that they sense no deception. The Bluff skill also states that "some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true". In the case of one PC that repeatedly lies to another (and is found out), you might reasonably rule that anything that PC says to the other does not fall under the use of a Bluff check, since anything he says is viewed as wildly improbable. "Yeah, that's all very convincing. But so was every lie you ever told me. You could tell me that the sky was blue, and I wouldn't believe you, plus I'd assume that you have an ulterior motive for telling me that".

Bluff doesn't work well when the person that you're bluffing has been a victim of your lies before. If you feel that a player is abusing the skill with other PCs, make certain that his lies are later exposed, or require him to roleplay elaborate measures to keep the lie from being uncovered, or perhaps to juggle a number of lies. Witnesses can come forward and dispute his word, etc.

Also, and probably more important, ask yourself why the player is so enamored with deceiving the other players? If he is sucking the fun out of the game for others, take him aside and talk to him. If he won't mend his ways, boot him from your game (or at least kill off the offending character). The game is supposed to be about everyone enjoying themselves. If your player can only enjoy himself at the expense of the other players, then he's a problem.

Liberty's Edge

Kierato wrote:

Neither Diplomacy nor Intimidate can affect a players attitude, but intimidate can demoralize.

Bluff can work on pcs as far as the sense motive skill is involved. If you bluff, the PCs must sense motive and roleplay the outcome properly.

+1 to this. A player's attitude is determined by the player (unless Enchantment magic is in play), so a high Diplomacy just makes make's one appear particularly well-mannered to a PC. He's still going to react however he chooses. Same with Intimidate checks to shift attitude.

As Kierato says, using Intimidate to demoralize (or Bluff to feint, for that matter) is a different story. Works just fine on a PC.

Scarab Sages

Yep. Skills should not be used as an excuse to act like an ass to other players and get away with it. :) You want to do something that's going to annoy the other players? You have to deal with the consequences of it because, skill or no skill, the person behind the character will still be upset.


The biggest problem with diplomacy and regular intimidate is that there is no real way to counter them. The demoralize option and Bluff both include some kind of counter or defense that a player can bolster if they are truly concerned about it. As far as using such skills against other players, it's no worse than any other mechanic. If it is all being done in character, and the players involved are all enjoying themselves, it won't be a problem; if it becomes clear the player trying to constantly bluff his party members is just trying to be a pain, than the problem is not the mechanics behind the bluff check, but the player.

The Exchange

Diplomacy can only be used on NPCs.
Intimidate can be used on PCs.
Bluff can be used on PCs.

There is this feat:

"Ice Water in your Veins (Source: Wild West Feats II)
You are fearless.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, Iron Will, character level 11th+.
Benefit: You are immune to all fear effects and Intimidate checks."

Our group allows players to take it at first level.

For Bluff, there is Sense Motive.

Also, our group does not believe that one immune to fear is therefore immune to Intimidate.

And re: the penalty to Bluff for outrageous lies, there is this feat:

"OVERWHELMING BEAUTY [Talent] (Source: Feats 101)
You have a perfect physical appearance, alluring personality, incredible grace, and an eye color unheard of for your race
Prerequisites: 1st level character, Cha 15 Dex 13
Benefit: You ignore all penalties to Bluff; this benefit does not apply to effects that reduce your Charisma score, such as ability damage or disease. You can also retry a failed Diplomacy check once per day."


Technically, no, they are not designed to used that way. But that does not mean you can't with a little fanegaling. The real answer is it depends on how well you can keep metagame info out of the roleplaying.

My group often uses diplomacy and intimidate against eachother. Its entirely resolved by the players, with no real GM involvement. Usually, we use it when an argument comes up over what course of action to take, and the die rolls can help resolve conflicts, or create some interesting role playing.

Liberty's Edge

"Caineach wrote:
"My group often uses diplomacy and intimidate against eachother. Its entirely resolved by the players, with no real GM involvement. Usually, we use it when an argument comes up over what course of action to take, and the die rolls can help resolve conflicts, or create some interesting role playing.

That's interesting that your group lets die rolls resolve disagreements. In my group we often have disagreements of what course of action to take, but we roleplay it out. We don't use dice, but generally the player (or character) with the most strongly held view tends to get his/her way. While the players debate amongst themselves, they do it in character, and try to make their arguments as their characters might.


It's not really supposed to work that way.

However, I have run into the situation of Player A and Player B are perfectly aware that Character X is trying to pull the wool over Character Y's eyes, and there's no compelling narrative reason to pick one choice over the other - or the characters are playing poker - so it's just as easy to do it as a bluff/sense motive contest.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Social skills used on player-characters All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.